Cryptocoin Mining?

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holden j caufield

Diamond Member
Dec 30, 1999
6,324
10
81
After reading the litecointalk thread with The Stilt, it saddens me to see how incompetent some OEM's are with their products.

Also, I have a stock Sapphire 7950 that barely breaks 600 KH/s @ 1100/1250.

I don't think max core clock is = max hash rate. try 1000 / 1250, 623 khash stable for weeks. Also I've found them to run about .96-.975v at 1000 / 1250 and 60ish in the lower slot, 8* higher in the above slot with one expansion slot free between them.

At that rating they only take 150-160 watts at max load. Has anyone got a 7950 to run lower ie my kill a watt has my system is 140 watts idle, 300 watts on 1 card mining and 460 watts on 2 cards mining.. Also they will undervolt using the older version of trixx but it does not undervolt with msi afterburner. Also does undervolting the memory reduce any significant watts used?
 
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wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
You want certain memory speeds, the ratio has to be just right with the timings. I would find the optimal memory speed and then try undervolting slowly.
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
I'll just copy the mining portion of my 290x (x2) initial mining experience from the other thread since this relates to this thread..

Mining
:
Fired up cgminer without any config except -w 256 and intensity 15 iirc, was around 1.2MH/s. Intensity at 17 was ~1.45 MH/s. Clearly it has a ways to go and I expect more by tweaking it. Bumped up the memory a bit and they're going about 1.55MH/s.

The memory appears to have various effects, but was clearly better at 1250 stock and around 1450 made a bigger difference. 1500 and a little above appear to drop it quite a bit. The effects in between appeared to go both up and down.

One card:
Around 1490 was ~835 Khash
1500 dropped to ~700 Khash
1625 ~830 Khash (Max afterburner OC)

The other card is mining a bit less
1490 memory & it's downlocking a bunch so I guess I need another fan in my case. It's mining around 720 kHash/s so it has a lot to go.

It appears that memory has a pretty big effect. Playing around for ~5 mins had jumps up and back down as the speed goes up. It'll take a while to hone in on the optimal speeds.

Power consumption:
2 x R9 290x on a 4770k with multiple HDDs/SSDs.
600w mining - stock at first stab without optimizing anything.
I put 10% more to the power limit, overclocked the memory (it can hit the max without issue mining, but the best was exactly 1490, even better than 1625- the max) and it's sitting at 700w mining at 1.55 MHash/s.
 

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
Those results seem to support the concepts put forth by Stilt in that other website discussion, where different ranges of memory speeds can trigger the card to use different memory latencies. So if you change the memory speed a little, and stay in the range for one memory latency, the hash rate doesn't change much. But, if you change the memory speed a little, and happen to hit a range that uses a different memory latency, then you see the difference in your hash rate. Even if you use a slower memory speed, this can happen, where the card will just happen to use better latencies for that slower memory speed, and boom the hashrate goes up. Ideally you just fix the table of latencies used at the various frequencies, but the manufacturers were usually too sloppy to bother, so the latency values are all over the place.

ON a side note, I wanted to encourage the healthy discussion regarding mining vs buying, and mining litecoins vs other alt coins. I think Blast and Silver are doing a great service by being champions of these discussions. Ultimately both positions help all miners. Think about it, if people switch to mining alt coins to speculate on various different currencies, the difficulty is spread out among lots of currencies and gives more opportunity for all to mine without dogpiling onto one single currency where the difficulty would then be blown out of the water. And for mining vs. buying, think about it, if there are more buyers of various coins, that just drives up the price for those who are mining. So it is all helpful and please keep discussion going, and even argue about it passionately guys!
 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com
I'll just copy the mining portion of my 290x (x2) initial mining experience from the other thread since this relates to this thread..

Mining
:
Fired up cgminer without any config except -w 256 and intensity 15 iirc, was around 1.2MH/s. Intensity at 17 was ~1.45 MH/s. Clearly it has a ways to go and I expect more by tweaking it. Bumped up the memory a bit and they're going about 1.55MH/s.

The memory appears to have various effects, but was clearly better at 1250 stock and around 1450 made a bigger difference. 1500 and a little above appear to drop it quite a bit. The effects in between appeared to go both up and down.

One card:
Around 1490 was ~835 Khash
1500 dropped to ~700 Khash
1625 ~830 Khash (Max afterburner OC)

The other card is mining a bit less
1490 memory & it's downlocking a bunch so I guess I need another fan in my case. It's mining around 720 kHash/s so it has a lot to go.

It appears that memory has a pretty big effect. Playing around for ~5 mins had jumps up and back down as the speed goes up. It'll take a while to hone in on the optimal speeds.

Power consumption:
2 x R9 290x on a 4770k with multiple HDDs/SSDs.
600w mining - stock at first stab without optimizing anything.
I put 10% more to the power limit, overclocked the memory (it can hit the max without issue mining, but the best was exactly 1490, even better than 1625- the max) and it's sitting at 700w mining at 1.55 MHash/s.

Nice power / hash ratio!

Stilt got back to me with the modified BIOS's. Going to flash them now and see what's up.

 

taq8ojh

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2013
1,296
1
81
You want certain memory speeds, the ratio has to be just right with the timings. I would find the optimal memory speed and then try undervolting slowly.
The Stilt said this is not true at all and there is no such thing. Given his obviously deep hadware knowledge, I will trust him on that.
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
The Stilt said this is not true at all and there is no such thing. Given his obviously deep hadware knowledge, I will trust him on that.

No that's exactly what he was saying, and my findings are support by his theory. It makes sense now.

There was over a 100 kHash/s difference as I went up with memory clocks and then it reversed and started to increase.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
I don't think max core clock is = max hash rate. try 1000 / 1250, 623 khash stable for weeks. Also I've found them to run about .96-.975v at 1000 / 1250 and 60ish in the lower slot, 8* higher in the above slot with one expansion slot free between them.

At that rating they only take 150-160 watts at max load. Has anyone got a 7950 to run lower ie my kill a watt has my system is 140 watts idle, 300 watts on 1 card mining and 460 watts on 2 cards mining.. Also they will undervolt using the older version of trixx but it does not undervolt with msi afterburner. Also does undervolting the memory reduce any significant watts used?

That's a very high idle wattage, some of which is going to the GPU's, so the 150-160 is more like 170-180. Still very good numbers, except for idle wattage, but it could be the 7950's are drawing ~30+ watts each at idle. If you remove one card completely and evaluate idle/load wattage you may get a better idea of their draw. IE) Full load single card draw with GPU2 removed is ~270-280watts means full load draw of each car is 180-190watts.
 
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24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
40
86
I like how an AMD/AIB employee saying something I have said from day 1 gets you all excited, but when I said the exact same damn thing I was flamed and then banned (multiple times on both).

Gotta love sheep.
 

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
there is a ratio involved that Stilt mentioned, something like the calculation of the hash rate you should be getting, based on the hardware etc. I think the ratio he was dismissing was the supposed ratio between memory speed and core speed. So it depends what ratio you are talking about.
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
Those results seem to support the concepts put forth by Stilt in that other website discussion, where different ranges of memory speeds can trigger the card to use different memory latencies. So if you change the memory speed a little, and stay in the range for one memory latency, the hash rate doesn't change much. But, if you change the memory speed a little, and happen to hit a range that uses a different memory latency, then you see the difference in your hash rate. Even if you use a slower memory speed, this can happen, where the card will just happen to use better latencies for that slower memory speed, and boom the hashrate goes up. Ideally you just fix the table of latencies used at the various frequencies, but the manufacturers were usually too sloppy to bother, so the latency values are all over the place.

ON a side note, I wanted to encourage the healthy discussion regarding mining vs buying, and mining litecoins vs other alt coins. I think Blast and Silver are doing a great service by being champions of these discussions. Ultimately both positions help all miners. Think about it, if people switch to mining alt coins to speculate on various different currencies, the difficulty is spread out among lots of currencies and gives more opportunity for all to mine without dogpiling onto one single currency where the difficulty would then be blown out of the water. And for mining vs. buying, think about it, if there are more buyers of various coins, that just drives up the price for those who are mining. So it is all helpful and please keep discussion going, and even argue about it passionately guys!

It was very interesting to learn the theory behind it and once I found one pattern, it repeated itself since both of my cards memory clock very well (beyond afterburners limit!). :thumbsup:

Going from 1250 dropped then increased to 1490, after which was a massive drop and increase to 1625 (and I suspect ~ the same difference would then apply with a drop and increase).


The one thing I found interesting, I may go try run it by Stilt too, was that the hash rates while increasing were very predictable. I think I have a great card since many can't overclock (allegedly) super high on the new 512bit R9's.

I found that changing the memory alone, had peaks and pits, but they were repetitive and the gains were minimal whether they were ~150 MHz apart. I think the timings (on my cards anyway) are so loose once you go up the the next timing/latency drop, it drops far enough that you don't actually gain much. Perhaps if they were tightened a little they could have actual gains as you go up.

I don't have any actual numbers but the latency may go in a way that you don't actually gain beyond the peak (in the R9 290x, or at least in my cards BIOS).

10 ns, 12, 14, 10, ...
12xx -----1490 1500.....

An analogy is when DDR3 came and it was at 1600, the latencies/timings have to be less than double vs. DDR2 800 to get the advantage.

I may be a little off base with this but that's what I suspect based on what I'm seeing and with Stilt's info.

---

I agree with the point about healthy discussions on both sides, the only issue I have is that people start to take a side and entrench themselves in it and cannot hardly be reasonable since they have to defend themselves. A healthy discussion is beneficial, and both clearly have pros/cons.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
there is a ratio involved that Stilt mentioned, something like the calculation of the hash rate you should be getting, based on the hardware etc. I think the ratio he was dismissing was the supposed ratio between memory speed and core speed. So it depends what ratio you are talking about.

This exactly. Stilt bemoaned the idea that there was some mythical .6 or .72 ratio between mem and core speeds and was saying miners need to find the mem speed that achieves the best overall latency timings. Part of the difficulty/confusion here is that some OEM's used lousy memory timings (due to AMD providing crap timings settings for use with Hynix MFR modules). Basically it's very worthwhile to see what memory the cards are running if your card isn't hashing like it should, do this before tweaking settings/configs till your eyes bleed out.

ie) 280x memory at 1500 is better than 280x memory at 1600 but it may be that 280x memory at 1800 is better than 280x memory at 1500 if your card can run 1800. Core speed would have little/nothing to do with it, so it's ratio doesn't matter.
 
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taq8ojh

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2013
1,296
1
81
there is a ratio involved that Stilt mentioned, something like the calculation of the hash rate you should be getting, based on the hardware etc. I think the ratio he was dismissing was the supposed ratio between memory speed and core speed. So it depends what ratio you are talking about.
That's the ration I thought wand3r3r was talking about. lol, so much confusion.
 

nwo

Platinum Member
Jun 21, 2005
2,308
0
71
And thoughts?

It's coming soon. There are already several in the works. 70kH/s is per chip, not per ASIC miner. Each ASIC miner will consist of multiple chips. It will trump the power efficiency of GPUs since they will be at least 10x more power efficient than the most efficient GPU.
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
I like how an AMD/AIB employee saying something I have said from day 1 gets you all excited, but when I said the exact same damn thing I was flamed and then banned (multiple times on both).

Gotta love sheep.

What? I haven't been following the thread long enough to know what you're talking about.
 
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wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
This exactly. Stilt bemoaned the idea that there was some mythical .6 or .72 ratio between mem and core speeds and was saying miners need to find the mem speed that achieves the best overall latency timings. Part of the difficulty/confusion here is that some OEM's used lousy memory timings (due to AMD providing crap timings settings for use with Hynix MFR modules). Basically it's very worthwhile to see what memory the cards are running if your card isn't hashing like it should, do this before tweaking settings/configs till your eyes bleed out.

ie) 280x memory at 1500 is better than 280x memory at 1600 but it may be that 280x memory at 1800 is better than 280x memory at 1500 if your card can run 1800. Core speed would have little/nothing to do with it, so it's ratio doesn't matter.


The latter portion is exactly what I found. I haven't even touched the core, but the memory had certain patterns due to the timing/latencies according to Stilt.
 

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
40
86
What? I haven't been following the thread long enough to know what you're talking about.

Every facet of what "TheStilt" is talking about.

From why the ratio is how it is, to the latency ranges, to the worthless AIB cards.
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
Every facet of what "TheStilt" is talking about.

From why the ratio is how it is, to the latency ranges, to the worthless AIB cards.

I've seen a lot of comments about the AIBs (and board differences etc.) from you, and am glad to get that info. I guess I haven't paid attention to latency talk until now.
 

gbeirn

Senior member
Sep 27, 2005
451
13
81
It's coming soon. There are already several in the works. 70kH/s is per chip, not per ASIC miner. Each ASIC miner will consist of multiple chips. It will trump the power efficiency of GPUs since they will be at least 10x more power efficient than the most efficient GPU.

Well I expect it to play out similar to Bticoin. Those who take profits from GPU mining and invest in 1st generation FPGA/ASIC mining will profit, those who take their profits from 1st gen and invest in 2nd gen will continue and so on. GPU mining will still be profitable for quite a while longer however as the energy advantage for first gen ASICs is better but not extremely so.

Also the ASICs for Scrypt mining are coming at a time when we are at a technology wall (28nm) and there isn't anything on the horizon for a bit (<20mn).
 

nwo

Platinum Member
Jun 21, 2005
2,308
0
71
Well I expect it to play out similar to Bticoin. Those who take profits from GPU mining and invest in 1st generation FPGA/ASIC mining will profit, those who take their profits from 1st gen and invest in 2nd gen will continue and so on. GPU mining will still be profitable for quite a while longer however as the energy advantage for first gen ASICs is better but not extremely so.

Also the ASICs for Scrypt mining are coming at a time when we are at a technology wall (28nm) and there isn't anything on the horizon for a bit (<20mn).

Yep, I don't think it will be a huge game changer for scrypt mining and I certainly think GPU mining will continue to be profitable to those with relatively sane power costs who already have the hardware. However, I do except Radeon prices to come down a bit, the difficulty will keep sky-rocketing, and hopefully the (LTC) prices will shortly start climbing at a more steady pace.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
Wow, Overstock.com is now accepting Bitcoin as payment.

Gonna try and buy something there to encourage this. Wonder how tax and stuff will be handled.
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
Now I'm sitting at
630w and 1.3 MH/s at I-15 or
685w and 1.6 MH/s at I-18

Stock core, 1490 memory. 1 card is at 870, the other only at 730 so I should have some room.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
Those results seem to support the concepts put forth by Stilt in that other website discussion, where different ranges of memory speeds can trigger the card to use different memory latencies. So if you change the memory speed a little, and stay in the range for one memory latency, the hash rate doesn't change much. But, if you change the memory speed a little, and happen to hit a range that uses a different memory latency, then you see the difference in your hash rate. Even if you use a slower memory speed, this can happen, where the card will just happen to use better latencies for that slower memory speed, and boom the hashrate goes up. Ideally you just fix the table of latencies used at the various frequencies, but the manufacturers were usually too sloppy to bother, so the latency values are all over the place.

ON a side note, I wanted to encourage the healthy discussion regarding mining vs buying, and mining litecoins vs other alt coins. I think Blast and Silver are doing a great service by being champions of these discussions. Ultimately both positions help all miners. Think about it, if people switch to mining alt coins to speculate on various different currencies, the difficulty is spread out among lots of currencies and gives more opportunity for all to mine without dogpiling onto one single currency where the difficulty would then be blown out of the water. And for mining vs. buying, think about it, if there are more buyers of various coins, that just drives up the price for those who are mining. So it is all helpful and please keep discussion going, and even argue about it passionately guys!

Thanks, I've had people post and PM me thanking me for analysis as well, but I want to note that my discussion of mining arbitrage was 100% about mining altcoins vs litecoins. There's so much randomness in life that it's hard to separate skill from luck without looking at much longer periods of time than just a month or two. Unless there's a super-outlier like dogecoin that offered such a gigantic, huge, and unprecedented arbitrage gap making the risk virtually zero to arbitrage it, it is often difficult to predict what's best to mine thanks to continually shifting prices, difficulties, and introductions of new coins. It's definitely possible to "beat the market" (i.e., make more by mining an altcoin than litecoin) but it's also possible to underperform the market as well, by mining something that turned out to be a less profitable than you expected. This is especially true for altcoins that aren't on exchanges or are on exchanges with limited market depth and small market cap since prices and difficulty can be extremely volatile. Basically, other than weird times like dogecoin, you cannot claim that "oh, I can stop mining altcoin at any time and pick it up again when it's more profitable." That's b.s., because you don't actually know your profitability until AFTER you've already decided what to mine. It's only after you mine and sell and pay exchange fees that you really know if you beat the market or not. What Silver's condescending posts claimed was basically: if you can predict the future, you can beat the market. Well DUH.

Many people try to time the market, think it's free money and they can buy low and sell high. Many people fail because it's freaking hard to time the market. When bitcoin crashed down to something like $500 recently, how many people correctly timed the market and rode it back up? Right up to the weekend before, Lehman Bros. was still in business. Right up to the point where Bitcoin Savings and Trust failed, there were people who KNEW it was a ponzi scheme but told themselves that they would somehow "know" when it was time to bail, so self-assured they were. People were still trading on MF Global right up to the point of failure. Etc. Yet here we have a guy Silverforce who claims he can simply jump in and out of various altcoins to maximize his profitability, or that he can turn the job over to a pool operator who can do the same thing. Sure, if competition for arbitrage opportunities is low enough, you can definitely beat the market, even after subtracting hefty coinhopping pool fees, but there is a LOT of of competition for arbitrage opportunities these days, making it quite difficult to consistently beat the market (profit more than mining litecoin, after accounting for pool fees and exchange fees) for long periods of time (at LEAST several years). Short lucky periods don't mean squat. If he has those kinds of market-timing skills he should work in finance and make a killing.

Mining straight LTC at a 0% fee pool with good uptime (e.g., WeMineLTC) is like buying a S&P500 Index Fund. It's boring but it's low-fee and less volatile than attempting to pick your own stocks. Attempting to arbitrage mining profitability directly or via a coinhopping pool is like trying to pick stocks yourself or outsourcing it to someone else via a high-fee mutual fund (this is an imperfect analogy and mining altcoins is possibly not quite as bad as this because of very rare coins like dogecoin that allow for brief periods of relatively low-risk arbitrage, but on the other hand, money managers can take advantage of arbitrage situations as well in finance).

Very few people manage to beat the market by picking stocks, over long periods of time. Short periods of time is easy, you can simply luck your way into beating the market for a long time, even years. Longer term? Ehhh. Historically there have been very few mutual funds that have consistently beaten the S&P500 (or some other index with hundreds or thousands of companies listed that is supposed to be representative of all stocks), especially once you add back in all the failed funds that dissolved and all their negative returns. (If you look only at the mutual funds that still exist today, that's cherrypicking data, because only the more profitable mutual funds survive.) Due to sheer luck, there are some funds that beat the S&P500 for several years in a row, and some funds that underperform the S&P500 for several years in a row if they don't get shut down first. It's only when a fund outperforms the S&P500 for decades that you can be reasonably certain that there is skill involved and not just luck (e.g., it's statistically very unlikely that Warren Buffett is merely lucky; it's highly probable he is skillful, too). That's why you should never trust conmen trying to pump and dump penny stocks based on a brief period of time. Even during the unique dogecoin run, nobody knew for sure when the gravy train would run out. Hindsight is 20/20. Timing altcoins is arguably EVEN HARDER than timing the stock market.

Altcoins are basically the penny stocks of the cryptocurrency world, so when you mine and hold them, however briefly, you expose yourself to the altcoin markets. For every guy loudly bragging about how they made money on penny stock X (sometimes as part of a pump-and-dump scheme), there are silent guys who lost on penny stock Y. Penny stocks are highly volatile, low-market cap, low-liquidity, and much more easily price-manipulated than large-cap. What we see in cryptocurrency is what we used to see more of in real-life penny stocks: market manipulation, insider trading if you know the altcoin developers' plans, pump and dump schemes, embezzling pool operators, pool and exchange operators that shut down claiming they were hacked but may have simply absconded with customer funds, etc. Unlike real-life stocks, there are no SEC laws to help keep a lid on fraud.

As always, don't gamble more than you can afford, and good luck.
 
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pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
I don't think max core clock is = max hash rate. try 1000 / 1250, 623 khash stable for weeks. Also I've found them to run about .96-.975v at 1000 / 1250 and 60ish in the lower slot, 8* higher in the above slot with one expansion slot free between them.

At that rating they only take 150-160 watts at max load. Has anyone got a 7950 to run lower ie my kill a watt has my system is 140 watts idle, 300 watts on 1 card mining and 460 watts on 2 cards mining.. Also they will undervolt using the older version of trixx but it does not undervolt with msi afterburner. Also does undervolting the memory reduce any significant watts used?

You can definitely get it to run lower if you lower the power throttling to something like -10% or -15% (or -20%) but this has a negative impact on your throughput. I run mine at ~370W total system power out of the wall, but I'm running at 960kh/s for my pair of Sapphire 7950's which can run around 1200kh/s without messing with power throttling. The main reason that I power throttle is to keep the noise down since I sleep not too far from the computer.
 
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