Crysis 2 Tessellation Article

[kyniskos]

Personally what I find far more intriguing is that programmers now probably will have to come up with a way to cull geometry as standard. It wasn't seen as an issue previously, but with tesselation it can become one.

 

[AtenRa]

Personally what I find far more intriguing is that programmers now probably will have to come up with a way to cull geometry as standard. It wasn't seen as an issue previously, but with tesselation it can become one.

They don't have to cull the geometry if they will implement Dynamic Tessellation efficiently.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32156109&postcount=76

 

[AnandThenMan]

What is fair, is to receive data and use this data to fairly come to a conclusion. What I see, at times, are arm chair judges and executioners convicting and executing based on conspiracy and conjecture, sadly.

There is more than enough data to come to the conclusion that Nvidia intentionally sabotages competitors performance. You conveniently call it "conspiracy" in an attempt to denigrate the well founded assertions of Nvidia's questionable tactics.

 

[SirPauly]

I haven't seen proof. I see idled gossip, conspiracy theories and wild conjecture. Find me evidence from one developer that will go on the record saying nVidia sabotages AMD. One! Should be so easy with all these so-called facts flying around here.

 

[HeXen]

even i thought it was pretty obvious and i don't even read or keep up with this crap.

 

[AnandThenMan]

I haven't seen proof. I see idled gossip, conspiracy theories and wild conjecture. Find me evidence from one developer that will go on the record saying nVidia sabotages AMD. One! Should be so easy with all these so-called facts flying around here.

In other words, show you proof using your narrowly defined rules, or it didn't happen.

 

[SirPauly]

Imho,

I think nVidia may of tried to offer more tessellation quality for their customers because their tessellation is more powerful. That's not the problem, the problem is where it was placed and more care may of been more prudent.

If one has powerful tessellation, it is good to see someone pro-active trying to get tessellation and a lot of it in titles. By its nature, it is going to make AMD look bad because their tessellation in comparison is not as impressive. That is 100 percent fair game in my mind.

My nit-pick isn't the amount of tessellation or performance hit but more care may of been needed in placing it; to offer even more quality. Some of the quality could of been placed in other areas.

It's not about trying to make AMD look bad but about doing more for nVidia's customers. And nVidia gets demonized by some for it, but one of their largest strengths is their pro-active nature.

If nVidia truly was trying to undermine AMD -- do you really believe developers would work with nVidia so strongly? Or wouldn't say something? The market needs both IHV's to be pro-active with their developer relations; to innovate and push their strengths for their customers.

 

[amenx]

^ Well said.

 

[3DVagabond]

Imho,

I think nVidia may of tried to offer more tessellation quality quantity for their customers because their tessellation is more powerful. That's not the problem, the problem is where it was placed and more care may of been more prudent.

Fixed. If there was an attempt at quality then those defending this patch would have some sort of basis for their support.

If one has powerful tessellation, it is good to see someone pro-active trying to get tessellation and a lot of it in titles. By its nature, it is going to make AMD look bad because their tessellation in comparison is not as impressive. That is 100 percent fair game in my mind.

People say this like AMD sponsored titles don't sport tessellation. It's simply not true. Look at Deus Ex. The hero models are tessellated. This is putting tessellation where it will matter most.

My nit-pick isn't the amount of tessellation or performance hit but more care may of been needed in placing it; to offer even more quality. Some of the quality could of been placed in other areas.

This is the problem everyone has. Except those who refuse to admit there's any problem at all. There is zero quality added by tessellating flat surfaces and having invisible models tessellated. Why do you suppose it's been done like that? It was so the tessellation/Dx11 box could be checked, but no real effort was used to actually increase quality.

It's not about trying to make AMD look bad but about doing more for nVidia's customers. And nVidia gets demonized by some for it, but one of their largest strengths is their pro-active nature.

It's not about improving the game play experience. Massive amounts of tessellation on flat surfaces and invisible meshes does nothing but hurt performance.

If nVidia truly was trying to undermine AMD -- do you really believe developers would work with nVidia so strongly? Or wouldn't say something? The market needs both IHV's to be pro-active with their developer relations; to innovate and push their strengths for their customers.

You give game devs too much credit. Sequels are often done to make money and little else. This is true whether it's a game, or a movie, or a book, or anything else. This is also true of those who invest in games. They do it to make money.

 

[SirPauly]

Actually give developers and engineers a lot of credit -- much, much more than vocal posters. It's their talents that create the experiences -- vocal posters, at times, whine a bit.

 

[Zanovar]

hmm,seems crytek let the work experience guys off making endless cups of tea that week and handed them the tesselation button,cant believe the modelers let this go.

 

[96Firebird]

I'm still not seeing where Nvidia designed and developed this game. Did they buy Crytek?

 

[Seero]

I'm still not seeing where Nvidia designed and developed this game. Did they buy Crytek?

That is exactly what I was going to type.:thumbsup:

 

[NIGELG]

You don't have to buy a company....you just have to 'bribe' them....errrrr 'help them' with the game.

 

[Seero]

You don't have to buy a company....you just have to 'bribe' them....errrrr 'help them' with the game.

Won't it be simplier to buy the entire Dx11 package and then release it as a driver exclusively for the game instead?

 

[3DVagabond]

Won't it be simplier to buy the entire Dx11 package and then release it as a driver exclusively for the game instead?

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here. What do you mean "entire Dx11 package" and "release it as a driver"? Could you try and explain, please?

 

[Madcatatlas]

Won't it be simplier to buy the entire Dx11 package and then release it as a driver exclusively for the game instead?

yes, what exactly do you mean.. im not sure if this is pro or con nvidia...

 

[happy medium]

yes, what exactly do you mean.. im not sure if this is pro or con nvidia...

Licence direct x 11 from Intel mabe? I think thats what hes saying, or buy it?

 

[Red Hawk]

I think he's suggesting that Nvidia make a "driver" that allows the game to use DX11 features instead of directly patching them into the game. That would never happen, for a couple of reasons. First of all, it just plain wouldn't work. Features like tessellation require being specifically mapped onto a surface, it's not just an effect. Drivers can help enable the game to use effects like antialiasing or ambient occlusion, but they cannot alter what is in the actually in the game. Secondly, Crytek is not that stupid. Such a "driver" would unambiguously lock AMD users out of using the DirectX 11 patch rather than allegedly just crippling them to an extent. It would make all AMD users, regardless of hardware, unable to experience that. If you're releasing the DX11 patch hopefully as a way to sell more copies, locking out around half of the market is not what you want to do. They'd break their partnership with Nvidia before agreeing to something like that.

 

[3DVagabond]

I think he's suggesting that Nvidia make a "driver" that allows the game to use DX11 features instead of directly patching them into the game.

Could you imagine that? Have nVidia and/or AMD have to support the games like they do their cards. You think we have driver problems and buggy games now? And yes, we'd all have to have two cards. No way each of them would do support for the others hardware.

I can see it now:

AMD? Yes, I would like to report a bug with the game. What's that? What card do I own? Well it's an nVidia XXX. What's that? Call nVidia?

Hello, nVidia? Yes I have one of your cards and there's a bug in game XXX. What? Yes, I know it's an AMD title, but they told me to call you. What? Call them back and tel them what? To stick the game where? Gee, I doubt that will help...

 

[Jacky60]

Its all fairly obvious and staightforward. Nvidia work 'with' the developers to ensure invisible objects and flat surfaces get huge amounts of tessellation -TWIMTBP - sponsorship call it what you will. The whole denial thing going on here with so many people admiring the kings new clothes is bizarre. It reminds me of journalism school when most of my fellow budding journalists didn't understand that companies and PR agencies unsurprisigly don't admit to mistakes/wrong doing and always present a good if distorted image of what they do. He who pays the piper calls the tune children.

 

[badb0y]

Won't it be simplier to buy the entire Dx11 package and then release it as a driver exclusively for the game instead?

You can't even imagine the Crapstorm that would follow this if something like that happened.

 

[Zanovar]

You can't even imagine the Crapstorm that would follow this if something like that happened.

After you *laughs*,jk

 

[SirPauly]

Its all fairly obvious and staightforward. Nvidia work 'with' the developers to ensure invisible objects and flat surfaces get huge amounts of tessellation -TWIMTBP - sponsorship call it what you will. The whole denial thing going on here with so many people admiring the kings new clothes is bizarre. It reminds me of journalism school when most of my fellow budding journalists didn't understand that companies and PR agencies unsurprisigly don't admit to mistakes/wrong doing and always present a good if distorted image of what they do. He who pays the piper calls the tune children.

imho,

I don't think many are in denial and some raise some valid points but if you desire to be judge and executioner based on the available data -- good for you.

It may be ideal if more care or time was taken when adding tessellation so there would of been more noticeable quality. Welcome more investigations and comments from nVidia and Crytech. Pleased to see an attempt of offering more tessellation but like to see more efficient usage and more quality usage.

However, even with some of the issues, the DirectX 11 path is very welcomed and adds immersion and quality to the title. So much good and another example of some allowing idealism to be the enemy of good.

Some talk about the critical hit of AMD's tessellation -- hopefully next generation wont suffer from it.

 

[SirPauly]

I think he's suggesting that Nvidia make a "driver" that allows the game to use DX11 features instead of directly patching them into the game. That would never happen, for a couple of reasons. First of all, it just plain wouldn't work. Features like tessellation require being specifically mapped onto a surface, it's not just an effect. Drivers can help enable the game to use effects like antialiasing or ambient occlusion, but they cannot alter what is in the actually in the game. Secondly, Crysis is not that stupid. Such a "driver" would unambiguously lock AMD users out of using the DirectX 11 patch rather than allegedly just crippling them to an extent. It would make all AMD users, regardless of hardware, unable to experience that. If you're releasing the DX11 patch hopefully as a way to sell more copies, locking out around half of the market is not what you want to do. They'd break their partnership with Nvidia before agreeing to something like that.

I don't think one could do it for DirectX 11 unless the patch had some features added by nVAPI.

How one may do it is like the examples of Cuda features for Just Cause 2. This would be another example of trying to raise the experience bar for GeForce Customers because that water was amazing and was a performance hit.