cs:s on linux

[heedoyiu]

http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=17
just a question anyone know if fps hit?

 

[The Linuxator]

I was reading about cedega and Steam in general , It is not bad persa but don't get your hopes up too much , I wanted to go the cedega way, but then I told my self If I have windows XP pro , and all my games run smoothley on it, even if I had cedega and it was for free I still wouldn't use it unless for some testing, but why pay for something like Cedega if you already have WIndows. Now f you don't have windows it's understood a little, but for that money that you will pay Cedega for subscription and get yourself win2K on Ebay for $ 50
and use that for games.

Now I made an owth to the penguin that WinXP Pro will be the last OS I use from the Devil's creation's in REDMOND. But once games stop working on winXP pro forcing me to buy VISTA you will hear me saying ASTA LA VISTA BILL G8TES I am going to buy Cedega BIATCH!!!!!!

EDIT : the problem is that performance on linux is bad, why, well because you have to emulate windows which takes a big bite of the performance pie. ever tried running windows APPS in WINE , for example I have FC4 x86-64 version, and a nice AMD64 3000+ X800XL rig. I tried running the simplest of windows apps like CPUZ for example in WINE and even that lags because your OS is just emulating it takes a performance hit.

 

[drag]

There WILL be a performance hit. Cedega's DirectX support isn't as good as Microsoft's own DirectX support...

Now how big of a hit is very variable on the game itself, so since I won't touch halflife 2 with a ten foot pole because of the valve steam stuff I can't say for certain.

Maybe google around for some benchmarks and such. I am pretty sure that it's not a big hit and that it's perfectly playable in a machine that runs linux if it runs well in the same machine with Windows.

 

[drag]

EDIT : the problem is that performance on linux is bad, why, well because you have to emulate windows which takes a big bite of the performance pie. ever tried running windows APPS in WINE , for example I have FC4 x86-64 version, and a nice AMD64 3000+ X800XL rig. I tried running the simplest of windows apps like CPUZ for example in WINE and even that lags because your OS is just emulating it takes a performance hit.

That's not true at all. There is absolutely no emulation going on at all when running Wine in Linux.


Wine: wine is not a emulator.

You see Wine is a implimentation of the Win32 API for Linux. It's designed to provide the programs with a similar compatability layer between Linux and win32 apps that you get in Windows XP between NT and win32 apps.

The 2 major reasons that Wine doesn't run stuff as well is because there are a lot of hidden features and much of the documentation on low-down Win32 is misleading, nonexistant, or just outright lies. Also generally when you get wine it's compiled with debugging support which slows down stuff.

Because of this the Wine developers probably will never be able to provide the same level of win32 support as the win32 platform does.

Now directX is something that is seperate and a add-on to Win32. Untill recently Wine has had very spotty support for DirectX, but now it has almost complete support for DirectX 9 support...

Cedega is based on a fork of Wine called WineX, which is a earlier form of DirectX support for Wine... It works with some companies to make sure that even if the game maker won't provide native app support for Linux they will modify Cedega to make games to work with Linux. Also they license code and the ability to work with the various forms of CD protection that game makers use so that you can install directly onto Linux without having to install first into Windows and copy the files over.

Performacne hit on games run between 95% of Windows performance to 40% of windows performacne. It's very paticular to the game and how well it's programmed and how well the parts of Cedega/Wine it uses are programmed and drivers in Linux.

For instance if you take the ATI drivers for Linux. These are substantially inferior to Windows drivers for ATI. Simply by switching to Linux and using a ATI card your getting 30-50% performance hit over windows. Then when you add on the Wine compatability layer with Cedega's DirectX implimentation your getting a additional 10-20% performance hit.

So by the time your finished a game that would run a 100fps in Windows will only run about 40fps in Linux and with more bugs.

Now on the other hand if you take Nvidia.. by switching to Linux you can actually get a modest INCREASE in performance. So even with Wine some games like World of Warcraft can be just as nice as they are in Windows in Linux.

Since Linux is much more easily manipulated and tweaked then Windows gaming in Linux theoreticly should be BETTER then Windows if it wasn't for crappy driver support from ATI and some now-minor issues with sound.

As a example Linux's file system and disk I/O performance is superior to Windows and I noticed that Doom3 loads much faster in my 2400+ AMD system with a gig of RAM with 80gig harddrive vs my father's 3200 AMD system with a gig of RAM and faster 200gig Maxtor drive.

Then you don't have issues with degramentation and viruses and spyware and such.


However Windows is much better for gamers right now because the programmers target Windows almost exclusively.

Now on a side note...

Wine's primary goal isn't as a compatability layer for Windows apps on Linux...

It's designed as a full-fledged Win32 api that can form a transition for companies wanting to port Windows programs to Linux. Meaning with little work a company can take a program they programmed in Windows for Windows and modify only a small part of their source code then they can take that program and recompile it to run directly for Linux.

(also it's possible to program in Linux using Wine and compile it using Linux tools to make a exe program that will run natively in Windows.. without touching a windows operating system. (although you'd want to do that for quality control, of course))

Think of it as a sort of crutch to make porting apps much simplier then it would be otherwise.

But it's definately has little to nothing to do with any emulation of any sort.

 

[IEC]

Good to see that drag got elite-d

That's one heckuva good explanation of the Wine API implementation :thumbsup:

 

[The Linuxator]

Originally posted by: ariafrost
Good to see that drag got elite-d

That's one heckuva good explanation of the Wine API implementation :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

Hey drag, offcourse I know WINE is not an emulator , but If you think about it by concept, a compatability layer that cannot provide full compatability of the real OS is just an emulator , mimicing the Windows but failing in most cases due to micro$ofts closed source policy , but still that emulator issue is just another grey area in the linux pages.

 

[sourceninja]

I play halflife 2 at 1600x1200 with graphics up very high (only thing turned down is water refelctions) though cedega with very good frame rates (no lag). I dont play CS:S because we still all play 1.6, but that works great too.

i have an amd64 3500 1 gig of ram and an nvidia 6800 GT 256meg video card.

You will need to tweak the settings in cedega to get good performance, but I'd say its just as fast as native windows for half life 2. It does however have an issue where loading a zone can take forever.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: The Linuxator

Originally posted by: ariafrost
Good to see that drag got elite-d

That's one heckuva good explanation of the Wine API implementation :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

Hey drag, offcourse I know WINE is not an emulator , but If you think about it by concept, a compatability layer that cannot provide full compatability of the real OS is just an emulator , mimicing the Windows but failing in most cases due to micro$ofts closed source policy , but still that emulator issue is just another grey area in the linux pages.

Stolen from Webopedia:

Most operating environments, such as MS-Windows, provide an API so that programmers can write applications consistent with the operating environment. Although APIs are designed for programmers, they are ultimately good for users because they guarantee that all programs using a common API will have similar interfaces. This makes it easier for users to learn new programs.

When MS will not give the information on certain APIs, then third parties have to figure them out for themselves. This is not emulation, but rather a reverse engineering for interoperability.

 

[The Linuxator]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but just a quick question.

Drag while your here, I asked this question alot in AT forums, but no linux GURU was able to answer it maybe you can help.
I write programs in VB.net after I build them as exe files I try to run them in WINE but they don't respond to WINE do you know what's the best way to run programs that require the micro$oft .Net framework 1.1 in WINE ?

 

[heedoyiu]

well i think cedega is only 15 bucks really
of course you may have to get new soft eventually
but i think i may go with cedega and go back to linux

 

[kirby01]

what do you mean wine is not an emulator... wine stands for WINdows Emulator...

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: kirby01
what do you mean wine is not an emulator... wine stands for WINdows Emulator...

Or it stands for...

Wine
Is
Not (a)
Emulator

Stolen from WineHQ FAQ:

2.2. Does Wine emulate a full computer?

No, as the name says, Wine Is Not a (CPU) Emulator. Wine just provides the Windows API. This means that you will need an x86-compatible processor to run an x86 Windows application, for instance from Intel or AMD. The advantage is that, unlike solutions that rely on CPU emulation, Wine runs applications at full speed. Sometimes a program run under Wine will be slower than when run on a copy of Microsoft Windows, but this is more due to the fact that Microsoft has heavily optimized parts of their code, whereas mostly Wine is not well optimized (yet). Occasionally, an app may run faster under Wine than on Windows. Most apps run at roughly the same speed.

 

[remagavon]

Are there any benchmarks with actual framerate comparisons between linux and windows? Saying it plays smoothly is great, but one person's definition of smooth will be different than another's.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: The Linuxator
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but just a quick question.

Drag while your here, I asked this question alot in AT forums, but no linux GURU was able to answer it maybe you can help.
I write programs in VB.net after I build them as exe files I try to run them in WINE but they don't respond to WINE do you know what's the best way to run programs that require the micro$oft .Net framework 1.1 in WINE ?

Ya.

Don't bother writing your .net programs to work in Wine.

Linux has it's own .NET implimentation called Mono. It's designed to be complient with the publicly documented .NET framework and C# language that Microsoft has published in order to try to make it a standard.

I don't know exactly how compatable it would be directly, but it should be trivial to port from MS's .NET stuff to Mono's.

See: http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page

They have a compiler for VB.NET to work directly with mono, but it's under developement right now.
http://www.go-mono.com/mbas.html


Most of what is being worked on, I think is just to get proper C# language support. From what I've heard it's best just to learn to use that rather then try to transfer your VB skills to VB.NET. This because Vb.net, while on the surface looks at being the same to VB, it's much different.

But keep in mind that I have very little programming experiance, and no experiance with VB, so take that with a heavy grain of salt.

If you want to program for cross-platform compatability it shouldn't be very difficult to do.. however if you want to take something that was only programmed to work on Windows and port it to Linux then it can be difficult. There are some MS-specific extensions that they didn't realy publish in their attempt for language standardization.

Right now there are a few big Desktop Linux apps that depend on .NET, generally written in C#. Tomboy, Fprot, and Beagle are the ones that come to mind immediately.

(I would of replied earlier, but I've been messing around with Ogre3d and python stuff lately. )

 

[heedoyiu]

you know i think its safe to say games in the future will have a home on linux
lets just hope steam will jump on the bandwagon
mostly speaking of native install