D810 vs. T43p

[roguerower]

I am going into an engineering program for college where i will be using CAD and Matlab. I currently have two choices: a Dell Latitude D810 or a IBM Thinkpad T43p. The dell is about $1000 less than the T43 with the school rebates. My biggest question is, that if everything else is the same, CPU (2.13 P/M), RAM, HD, OS, and Optical would the 128mb X600/700 on the D810 be better for me than the V3200/X300 on the T43. I am thinking about building a new system next summer that i can put the a FireGL or the Nvidia equivalent on if i need to. SO, the big question is, graphics.

 

[thraxes]

Generally you can say:
Price/Performance: Dell >> IBM
Build Quality and After Sales Service: IBM >> Dell

Ist it worth 1000$? I don't know... the problem is that the T43 is still relatively new (in IBM terms as they have a longer product cycle for their corporate customers) and thus expensive.

Then again I have learned through testing of friends laptops that there are only two companies that make a solidly built road warrior which give you few problems on the software side: IBM and Apple. They cost more but generally it IS worth the extra money.

 

[WackyDan]

Well, the T42P/T43P up until recently was/were the only notebook with ISV certifications. (HP just added one model with a few certifications)

IBM/Lenovo has been very successful with this as they work with the software publishers to ensure higher stability and performance, and provide elevated support for that Hardware/software combination.

Here....T42p/T43P certs

In some cases, IBM provides custom drivers just for the application in question.

So.. Dell can't even touch that.

Is it worth extra? In my mind yes.... Great quality/durability, with an awesome warchest of system tools to keep the TP up and running.... Rapid restore PC with rescue and recovery is awesome.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Rapid restore PC with rescue and recovery is awesome.

IBM really improved that w/the T43. My test model from IBM restores in less than 10 minutes. My T42 takes 30 min minimum, loading all the customized settings & whatnot.

 

[roguerower]

And as to the graphics question?

 

[trikster2]

Blanket statements are the suck

Build Quality IBM >> Dell

CR shows only a few % between the two in reliability and pcmag/pcworld show them the same. New D810s are very well built machines. Few pounds heavier than the thinkpads but solid as a rock plus you get widescreen, nice on some apps, great on games/movies.

Go over to www.thinkpads.com and browse their forums. Plenty of people having problems with their IBM laptop AND IBM support

> after Sales Service: IBM >> Dell

For the latitudes the service is next-day onsite. Should still be US based service too, it was the last time I checked. Someone shows up and fixes your problem; much better than mail the thing to IBM and hope for the best, as is the default for IBM "depot" service. Gotta pay extra to get the IBM onsite support.

> Well, the T42P/T43P up until recently was/were the only notebook with ISV certifications.

T43P is not even listed on the page you reference?

> So.. Dell can't even touch that.

Dell claimed ISV certification when I brought my precision M70. Never looked into as I did not buy it for CAD

> And as to the graphics question?

Technically the V3200 in the T43P is based on the same X600 that is in the D810. Neither chips is stellar by today's standards (think mobility 9700) so for most stuff the D810 and V3200 should be comparable. The V3200 might have an advantage in some CAD apps. Best thing to do would be to ask students using the apps/laptops. Without knowing your specific apps no one can really answer your question.

Curious why your school is not offering the M70? More apples to apples comparision than the T43P.

Question for you: Is your school offering the 14 or 15" T43P? Over at thinpads.com they are reporting horrible wait times for the T43P 15". If it is the 14" you are really comparing apples and oranges. If you are lugging this thing everywhere go with the 14" T43P. If it is sitting in your dorm, don't be silly, go with the Dell D810 w. the port replicator and get your self a sweet 24" display go with it with the $1000 you save (or pocket the $1000 for all the money you'll be spending on the women. Hot chicks dig engineers).....

Finally: there is rumour of a mid-year refresh of the T43. If you are getting this for next year... WAIT. You might be able to get something better than what is offered now.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: trikster2
Blanket statements are the suck

Build Quality IBM >> Dell

CR shows only a few % between the two in reliability and pcmag/pcworld show them the same. New D810s are very well built machines. Few pounds heavier than the thinkpads but solid as a rock plus you get widescreen, nice on some apps, great on games/movies.
Sigh. Again. There is no question. No one ever said Dell is horrible. Its just that IBM build quality is better than Dell. Period. Thanks

Go over to www.thinkpads.com and browse their forums. Plenty of people having problems with their IBM laptop AND IBM support Google "Dell support sucks" and see what you find. I'm sorry, Dell support doesn't compare to IBM.

> after Sales Service: IBM >> Dell

For the latitudes the service is next-day onsite. Should still be US based service too, it was the last time I checked. Someone shows up and fixes your problem; much better than mail the thing to IBM and hope for the best, as is the default for IBM "depot" service. Gotta pay extra to get the IBM onsite support. You pay for Dell's onsite support. "Included" warranty option is 3 Year Mail-In Economy Plan. The on-site plan starts at an extra $268. IBM's depot service tends to be better than Dell's from all the accounts I've heard. I've only heard of two problems with IBM's depot warranty, wanna guess about Dell? I think not. Not to mention IBM makes every effort to ship the notebook out the same day they get it.

> Well, the T42P/T43P up until recently was/were the only notebook with ISV certifications.

T43P is not even listed on the page you reference?

> So.. Dell can't even touch that.

Dell claimed ISV certification when I brought my precision M70. Never looked into as I did not buy it for CAD

> And as to the graphics question?

Technically the V3200 in the T43P is based on the same X600 that is in the D810. Neither chips is stellar by today's standards (think mobility 9700) so for most stuff the D810 and V3200 should be comparable. The V3200 might have an advantage in some CAD apps. Best thing to do would be to ask students using the apps/laptops. Without knowing your specific apps no one can really answer your question. The V3200 will have a major advantage in programs designed to use the special OpenGL drivers or whatever. Its designed for 3D rendering & modeling, the drivers are optimized for it.

Curious why your school is not offering the M70? More apples to apples comparision than the T43P.

Question for you: Is your school offering the 14 or 15" T43P? Over at thinpads.com they are reporting horrible wait times for the T43P 15". If it is the 14" you are really comparing apples and oranges. If you are lugging this thing everywhere go with the 14" T43P. If it is sitting in your dorm, don't be silly, go with the Dell D810 w. the port replicator and get your self a sweet 24" display go with it with the $1000 you save (or pocket the $1000 for all the money you'll be spending on the women. Hot chicks dig engineers).....

Finally: there is rumour of a mid-year refresh of the T43. If you are getting this for next year... WAIT. You might be able to get something better than what is offered now. Definitely.

 

[roguerower]

I looked back on the Dell website for my college and they offer the M70 with the Nvidia Quadro FX Go1400 OpenGL w/ 256mb ram. How would this stack up to the other laptops mentioned?

 

[Lord Banshee]

for CAD the Graphics are like so

Quadro 1400 > V3200 > X600

so in Hardware CAD/Line acceleration
M70>T43p>D810

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: Lord Banshee
for CAD the Graphics are like so

Quadro 1400 > V3200 > X600

so in Hardware CAD/Line acceleration
M70>T43p>D810

Quadro FX Go1400 Memory Size
Memory Interface
PowerMizer Version
Graphics Memory Bandwidth
Graphics Bus
Shader Model Support
FSAA Technology

ViewPerf8.0.1 ? sw-01
ViewPerf8.0.1 - ugs-04
ViewPerf8.0.1 - 3dsmax-03
256MB
256-bit
5.0
19.4GB/sec.
PCI Express
3.0 (DirectX 9.0c)
up to 8x & RG FSAA

22.56 *
27.90 *
31.58 *


FireGL V3200 Graphics Technology
Two parallel geometry engines
Four parallel pixel pipelines
128-bit full floating point precision
32-bits per RGBA component displays 16.7M colors

128 MB DDR unified graphics memory

Hope that helps. In general, if your 3D apps use OpenGL go with NVIDIA.

 

[roguerower]

So the general consensus would be...

I'm leaning towards Dell because of the price and the fact that is a better all around machine but I like IBM's after market support. So it pretty much comes down to:

-Video Card
-After market support
-Build Quality

 

[trikster2]

> Sigh. Again. There is no question. No one ever said Dell is horrible. Its just that IBM build quality is better than Dell. Period. Thanks

Sigh. Again. If the build quality is better than why is the reliability the same? The D810 in question is built as well as any thinkpad. The laptop is solid as a rock.

> Google "Dell support sucks" and see what you find. I'm sorry, Dell support doesn't compare to IBM.

google for IBM support sucks and see what you find. go to www.thinkpads.com, plenty of outright horror stories. Dell lattitude support doesn't compare to dell home support. There are two different Dell support organizations, Dell home support is india based with a horrible rep and delll business/edu support is US based with a pretty good rep. The lattitudes get the US based onsite support.

>>> You pay for Dell's onsite support. "Included" warranty option is 3 Year Mail-In Economy Plan. The on-site plan starts at an extra $268.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong. You are still stuck in the consumer inspirons which are not the subject of this conversation. STANDARD waranty on the Lattitude/Precision is ONSITE. That for me would be the deciding factor, the last thing I want is my laptop w. data being sent to Lenovno for repair.

Here's a nice 3D Mark 05 thread comparing the graphics in the various dells. Not nec relevant to CAD but gives you an idea of the relative pixel pushing power:

http://notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=68910

ATi x600 = 1295 ( Inspiron D810)
nvidia Quadro 1400 = 3128 (oc'd), 2580 (stock) 2426 (stock)

No V3200 listed but the specs on the card are similar to the ATI x600.

 

[trikster2]

> Sigh. Again. There is no question. No one ever said Dell is horrible. Its just that IBM build quality is better than Dell. Period. Thanks

Sigh. Again. If the build quality is better than why is the reliability the same? The D810 in question is built as well as any thinkpad. The D810 is solid as a rock. Period. Thanks.

> Google "Dell support sucks" and see what you find. I'm sorry, Dell support doesn't compare to IBM.

google for IBM support sucks and see what you find. go to www.thinkpads.com, plenty of outright horror stories. Besides you are comparing apple to pears. Dell lattitude/business support doesn't compare to dell home support. Dell home support is india based with a horrible rep and delll business/edu support is US based with a pretty good rep. The lattitudes get the US based ONSITE support.

>>> You pay for Dell's onsite support. "Included" warranty option is 3 Year Mail-In Economy Plan. The on-site plan starts at an extra $268.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong. You are still providing information regarding the cheap consumer inspirons which are not the subject of this conversation. STANDARD waranty on the Lattitude/Precision is ONSITE. That for me would be the deciding factor if I was the OP, the last thing I want is my laptop w. data being sent to the Chinese Gov owned Lenovno for repair.

Here's a nice 3D Mark 05 thread comparing the graphics in the various dells. Not nec relevant to CAD but gives you an idea of the relative pixel pushing power:

http://notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=68910

ATi x600 = 1295 ( Inspiron D810)
nvidia Quadro 1400 = 3128 (oc'd), 2580 (stock) 2426 (stock)

No V3200 listed in that thread but the specs on the card are similar to the ATI x600.

The only benchmark I can find on the V3200/T43P lists a 3DMARK 05 of 1251, about 1/2 of the M70.

IBM really fumbled the ball on the T43P. If you want something with some legs get the M70

 

[roguerower]

So since the Quadro has a higher 05 score would it outperform the X600 in say, Half Life 2 or Doom 3?

I realize that i may be restating something already stated, but for my peace of mind, please help.

 

[trikster2]

Sorry can't find any direct comparisons

Here's a thread with some Doom 3 benchies. Perhaps you can find an X600 benchmark to compare it against.

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2302

Here's a thread on Doom 3 and the M70

http://notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=65594&page=1&pp=15

A review comparing M70 to some mondo 3.6Ghz P4 laptops (M70 kicks but in graphics, laggs in CPU only benchies)

http://www.cgnetworks.com/story_custom.php?story_id=2932&page=1

Gets its clock cleaned against desktops for video editing (but still favorable review):

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=31193

 

[eri7154798]

Originally posted by: trikster2

google for IBM support sucks and see what you find. go to www.thinkpads.com, plenty of outright horror stories. Dell lattitude support doesn't compare to dell home support. There are two different Dell support organizations, Dell home support is india based with a horrible rep and delll business/edu support is US based with a pretty good rep. The lattitudes get the US based onsite support.

keep in mind, you keep talking about thinkpads.com, which i don't understand as to why, for it is a place for people to get together to troubleshoot their problems. i would expect plenty of horror stories there. how about you go visit http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums?~ck=mn for dell's support community forum, and look at those horror stories. i believe that you cannot fully compare the two forums, or their sizes, because dell and ibm both have different base consumer sizes. just telling us to go to a website to look at the problems is pretty weak in itself.

i thought i'd just point that out.

 

[roguerower]

Thankyou all, it appears that i will be going with the M70. While i liked the t43 till now, it just isn't in the playing cards.

Trikster, you said that you got the $750 off for your laptop, how did you get it, and what was the final price?

 

[trikster2]

> you keep talking about thinkpads.com, which i don't understand as to why,

thinkpads.com is required reading for anyone considering a thinkpad. It's a great forum with TONS of information both good and bad about thinkpads. If you are looking for T43P info here you are in the wrong forum. The thinkpads.com forums where a great tool when I was deciding between the T43P and the Dell M70.

For portability: T43P

For power: M70

For afordability: D810

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: trikster2
> Sigh. Again. There is no question. No one ever said Dell is horrible. Its just that IBM build quality is better than Dell. Period. Thanks

Sigh. Again. If the build quality is better than why is the reliability the same? The D810 in question is built as well as any thinkpad. The D810 is solid as a rock. Period. Thanks. Again, I'm not disputing it. But the engineering & design that goes into a Thinkpad is well ahead of a Dell, anyone who has used both can tell you. I can't say I've used a D810 and I'm sure they're great machines, but I wouldn't care if the heavenly father himself said Dell's were on par with IBM's. Tell me, who has the brass to say that Dell servers are on par with IBM servers?

> Google "Dell support sucks" and see what you find. I'm sorry, Dell support doesn't compare to IBM.

google for IBM support sucks and see what you find. go to www.thinkpads.com, plenty of outright horror stories. Besides you are comparing apple to pears. Dell lattitude/business support doesn't compare to dell home support. Dell home support is india based with a horrible rep and delll business/edu support is US based with a pretty good rep. The lattitudes get the US based ONSITE support.

>>> You pay for Dell's onsite support. "Included" warranty option is 3 Year Mail-In Economy Plan. The on-site plan starts at an extra $268.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong. You are still providing information regarding the cheap consumer inspirons which are not the subject of this conversation. STANDARD waranty on the Lattitude/Precision is ONSITE. That for me would be the deciding factor if I was the OP, the last thing I want is my laptop w. data being sent to the Chinese Gov owned Lenovno for repair. That's interesting, 'cuz I went under Small Business and browsed to the D810. That was the info. How am I supposed to find this magical free on-site warranty? And if you knew what you were talking about, support for Thinkpads will stay where it is for at least the next 5 years. When IBM control of the Thinkpads truly ends in 5 years, we'll talk about. Until then, IBM support > Dell. I've heard of plenty of people who buy all the super cool warranty options from Dell and still get screwed around on the phone. I'm sure their onsite is fine though, given they contract it out locally just like everyone else.

Here's a nice 3D Mark 05 thread comparing the graphics in the various dells. Not nec relevant to CAD but gives you an idea of the relative pixel pushing power:

http://notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=68910

ATi x600 = 1295 ( Inspiron D810)
nvidia Quadro 1400 = 3128 (oc'd), 2580 (stock) 2426 (stock)

No V3200 listed in that thread but the specs on the card are similar to the ATI x600.

The only benchmark I can find on the V3200/T43P lists a 3DMARK 05 of 1251, about 1/2 of the M70.

IBM really fumbled the ball on the T43P. If you want something with some legs get the M70 I agree the T43P is a mild upgrade from the T42P's. Not worth all the high end dollar IMO. The M70 is a better workstation machine. But Thinkpad's are better quality. It all comes down to what you get for your money

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: trikster2

> you keep talking about thinkpads.com, which i don't understand as to why,

thinkpads.com is required reading for anyone considering a thinkpad. It's a great forum with TONS of information both good and bad about thinkpads. If you are looking for T43P info here you are in the wrong forum. The thinkpads.com forums where a great tool when I was deciding between the T43P and the Dell M70. :thumbsup:

For portability: T43P :thumbsup:

For power: M70 :thumbsup:

For afordability: D810 :thumbsup: If you get one of those $750 off coupons, otherwise it seemed to me that these were just as expensive as Thinkpads; could be wrong tho