D875PBZ memory advice

[Kmogg]

I will be doing a first build based on the Intel D875 PBZ motherboard:
http://www.intel.com/design/motherbd/bz/index.htm

I will be running an All in wonder TV/ Capture card, Audigy 2 Platinum Ex and will use as a home entertainment center. Keep my music on the hard drive, record from TV, digitize my tapes and albums, share media with other computers on a home network, play with video editing and sound recording etc.

Probably an Intel 2.4c 800 mhz fsb cpu. 200 gb Western digital drive ( May add in SATA RAID 0 array in a year or so). Win XP Pro.

Don?t care much about extreme gaming. Would prioritize stability and minimize tweaking and tech support calls, though would like to get whatever reasonable performance gains I can. Multitasking efficiency would be a plus with the new hyperthreading feature. Price is a consideration, of course, though it is worth paying something for ease, quality or future upgradeability.

Soooooo? Memory is the last decision I have to make. My first hunch is to put in a gig (2 x 512) of medium quality Intel tested PC 3200 memory, run at standard timings. Perhaps Crucial or Kingston Value Ram. Though I now can?t imagine ever needing more than a gig, this would leave two more slots for future expansion. ( I do plan to keep this about as long as I can eke it out?)

My questions:
1. Anandtech had a review of the 875 p chipset memory and reported that the fastest set up was to have all four slots set up with matched double sided dimms.

http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.html?i=1839&p=8

Should I go with 4 x 256 mb pc3200 modules? I could actually start with 2 and then add the other two when memory prices come down. ( Are they gonna in the next 6 months?) This strategy assumes that I would never want more than a gig in there. How much an improvement over 2 x 512 might this be? I didn?t quite get that from the Anandtech article.

2.I have checked the Intel website and they link to memory they have tested in house and also memory they have given to CMTLabs for independent testing:
http://www.intel.com/design/motherbd/bz/bz_mem.htm
The Kingston and Crucial are the most readily available 512 modules on those lists (Crucial is listed as Micron, but I believe it is the same memory). But users report success ( and sometimes headaches!) with other brands of faster and somewhat more expensive memory. Should I consider the likes of Corsair or Mushkin or Geil or Kingston HyperX ? This intel board is supposedly somewhat limited in its ability to overclock or tweak memory ( though there is the Intel supplied ?burn in mode? utility with the 4% boost and the BIOS does allow you to change some memory settings? ).

3. If I should even consider something not on the Intel list, at what price point does the better quality memory lose any bang for the buck validity? Eg. If the Gig of memory costs $40 more, would I be better off just getting a 2.6c processor instead? Or would 512 mb of the fancy stuff be better than 1 gb of the middle of the road stuff for some reason?

Here are some examples of stuff off the web. Prices include shipping and handling but not tax.

CT6464Z40B Crucial 512 mb $ 94.99 From Crucial.com ($95.00 NEW Egg OEM)
Module Details:
 Module Size: 512MB
 Package: 184-pin DIMM
 Feature: DDR PC3200
 Configuration: 64Meg x 64
 DIMM Type: Unbuffered
 Error Checking: Non-parity
 Speed: 5ns
 Voltage: 2.5V
 SDRAM Timings:CL=3

Crucial CT3264Z40B 256 mb $54.99 ( New Egg $54 OEM)

Kingson 512mb (2x256mb) DDR400 PC3200, Model KVR400X64C3AK2/512 (New Egg $100)
3.3.3

Kingston 1024MB Kit ( 2x512MB ) PC3200 DDR 400Mhz ( KVR400X64C3AK2/1G ) CL3 - Retail
Essen Computers $199.89


KINGSTON KVR400X64C3/512 512MB 400MHz DDR PC3200 DIMM RAM CL3 (New Egg $99)

KINGSTON HyperX Series 184-pin 1GB Kit (2x 512MB) DDR400 (PC3200) DDR RAM modules, Model# KHX3200K2/1G New Egg $270

CORSAIR MEMORY Kit 512MBx2 PC3200 VALUE SELECT. DDR RAM - OEM
Specifications
This Kit Contains 2 Matched 512MB Modules, for 1GB Total Memory Model#: VS1GBKIT40
$196 New Egg

CORSAIR MEMORY XMS Extreme Memory Speed Series 512MB 64MX64 PC-3200C2PT With Platinum - Silver Heat Spreader OEM
Specifications:
Speed 400 MHz
Organization 64M x 64
CAS Latency 2-3-3-6-T1
Memory type DDR
Part number: CMX512-3200C2PT
NE $128.50

GEIL DDR RAM 512MB PC-3200 Value 400MHz Ultra- CAS 2.5, 2T CommandGL5123200B Value. DDR400, CAS 2.5
New Egg $91plus tax

Mushkin 512MB PC3200 DDR SDRAM DIMM Memory
Model: 990930 $105 @ best buy

2.5-4-4 @ 400MHz ? 3.2GB/s Dual Bank ? 64Mx64 Module 32Mx8 chip density Cool Blue 6-Layer PCB 184pin 2.5V Unbuffered ? Heatspreader $109 at mushkin same stuff (800-569-1868)

KingMax DDR memory 512MB PC3200- OEM
Specifications:
Performance range - 400MHz ( DDR400, CL2.5 )
Double-data-rate architecture; two data transfers per clock cycle
Auto & self refresh capability (4096 Cycles / 64ms)
Single 2.5V ±0.2V power supply Programmable Read latency 2, 2.5 (clock)
Programmable Burst length (2, 4, 8) Model#: MPXC22D-38 -OEM
NE $92 incl S/H

Anyway, I am open to any comments or suggestions. If I go as what I perceive as the middle of the road path, I would either get the Kingston 1024MB Kit ( 2x512MB ) PC3200 DDR 400Mhz KVR400X64C3A at Essen computers or buy the CT6464Z40B Crucial 512 mb $ 94.99 From Crucial.com. Wondering if support and returns would be better from Crucial directly. I like Newegg, but they didn?t have the A version of the Kingston KVR series that seems to be slightly better.

If I go non-standard cheap, the Best Buy Mushkin 512 3200 for $105 seems interesting ( though the Mushkin site has it on sale for $109 now) Think it is their mid level Blue line.

Beyond that, the Corsair gets a bit confusing for me and am not sure if it is worth it on this board. The LL series is $156 for the 512 at New Egg.

Thanks for any comments.

Kevin Mogg

 

[RalfHutter]

RAM on the 865/875 seems to be a pretty finicky issues and the 875PBZ is no exception. What works fine for me may not work for you. People have had good luck with Corsair 3200LL, HyperX 3200 &3500, Mushkin Level I & II PC3200 & 3500, Buffalo PC3200 &3700, etc. But there's also been people who have had trouble with most of that same RAM on this board. This situation is normal though. If you replaced the word "875PBZ" in the previous sentance with "P4C800" or "P4P800" or "IC-7" or "IS-7" you'd still be correct. That makes it kind of fun to choose RAM for these boards.

My personal experience extends to 2 875PBZ boards. My first one didn't like 2 x 512MB of Kingston PC3200 HyperX or 2 x 512MB of Mushkin Level I PC3200 at default speed or timings. Actually, it didn't like either of those at relaxed timings either. It does work perfect wit 2 x512MB of Mushkin PC3200 Level II RAM. I didn't try anything funny with my second 875PBZ, I just got Mushkin Level II to start with. 2 x 256MB is running great on that board, right out of the box. Would other, cheaper RAM work on either of these boards? Quite possibly but I don't have the time or money to try and find out.

Your thinking seems fine. If you're not going to OC, shouldn't some basic PC3200 RAM work. Yes it certainly should. Will it? You won't know until you try.

You're asking about 2 dimms vs. 4 dimms. Yes, it's true that Intel claims that all 4 dimms occupied gives better performance but real-world usage seems to show that it's harder to run successfully with all 4 full. Usually you have to relax your timings to get this to work well, and judging from a few examples I've seen with the 875PBZ, they're no different in that respect. Personally, I'd run 2 x 512MB for now and leave yourself room to expand in the future if you want or need to.

As far as specific choices of RAM goes, tempered by what I talked about above, I'd skip over the Crucial RAM just because it's "CAS3". You may be able to run it at tighter tinings but I sure wouldn't bet on it, especially on the rather picky 865/875 chipsets. If I had to choose RAM for this board and didn't want to spend the big bucks for RAM that may or may not work I'd go with the 512MB sticks of the Buffalo PC3700 from Newegg for $99 each. These sticks use the "Winbond BH-5" chips which seem to be the best thing going for the 865/875 boards, plus they're on the Intel tested list. This is what I'd personally go with if money was a factor. If money wasn't a factor I'd go with the Mushkin Level II because it uses the BH-5 chips and has worked on both of my 875PBZs. In general, people with 865-875 boards are having very good luck with RAM built around the BH-5 chips and they're getting more mixed results with RAM that uses the newer, easier to get CH-5 chips.

So, to sum up: Unfortunately it seems that there's a big element of "YMMV" to choosing RAM for these boards in particular and all 865/875 boards in general. There's no particular reason that good, basic RAM shouldn't work well for these non-OCing DDR400 boards. If you feel more comfortable choosing RAM from the Intel Approved list, I can totally understand. You should be prepared to RMA it though, so purchase it from a dealer with good customer service. That's one of the reasons I went with Mushkin in the first place. They happen to have world-class customer service but they also make some of the best RAM out there so between the two, I figured I'd have it covered.

 

[NesuD]

Heres my experience with the board and ram. Corsair XMS3200C2 was problematic with that board. We replaced the Corsair with Mushkin pc3200 Blue and it is running perfectly with that. Mushkin has tested their ram with that board and guarantees the Blu and Black grades of their ram with it. Mushkin also has some interesting things to say about that board and memory timings with their ram and Other major manufacturers ram modules. Mushkin Validation page For Intel motherboards

 

[Kmogg]

Thanks Ralf,
I did look for the Buffalo 512 modules on the Intel approved lists, and the only PC 3200 stuff they had was 256 mg. Nothing at PC 3700. Plenty of 333 mhz stuff, though. Mushkin is not on the approved lists at all. I am getting the idea from you that the lists don't mean much though. May or may not work in either way, in which case I would be interested in a moderately priced somewhat higher quality module. ( Though I am still curious as to what the actual real world performance difference would be between CAS 2.5 and CAS 3). You think the Intel board would appreciate the difference between the Buffalo PC 3200 and the Buffalo PC3700? Both are winbond chips.

Buffalo Technology 512MB 6 Layer PC3700 DDR Memory Module 32X8 (Winbond Module) - OEM
Specifications:
Type: 184-pin DDR
Capacity: 512MB
Speed: DDR466
6 Layer DIMM Model#: DD466-512/WB NewEgg $103 OEM Shipping Incl

Buffalo Technology 512MB 6 Layer PC3200 DDR Memory Module CL 2.5 32X8 (Winbond Module) - OEM
Specifications:
Type: 184-pin DDR
Capacity: 512MB
Speed: DDR400
6 Layer DIMM Model#: DD4002-512/WC -OEM New Egg $93 Shipping Incl

Is OEM versus retail significant?
If I put in either of the Buffalo, should it autorecognize the correct timings using SPD, or will I have to set manually?

The level 2 Mushkin seems to go for $175 at New Egg. If I get a gig, will that really be $150 worth of performance improvement on this board? Or would a faster processor be a better investment?
Looking at the Mushkin website, the level 1 and 2 just applies to the black line, right? ($25 difference). What do you think of the BLue for $129? Compared with the Buffalo ?

I think I am with you on getting 2 x 512 modules.

Kevin

 

[Kmogg]

NesuD,

As you can see, I have been giving the Blue some consideration. I liked the Best Buy $105 deal but was leery of their rma performance. Don't see it at NewEgg. Mushkin sells for $129 now ( the sale was short lived!)The Mushkin webpage mentions "2.5-4-4 @ 400MHz ". Is this what the SPD will automatically recognize, or did you set something on your own?

I assume the following were the comments you were referring to:

"Even though it is available as an option, 2:2:2 latency settings will not work in DDR400 mode, at least not with any DIMMs we have seen so far (including competitor products). CAS-2 (3:3), however works flawlessly. Intel does not have a ClearCMOS jumper on the board, however, setting the "Config" jumper (see below) to 2-3 will override the BIOS setting and boot into safe mode for configuration of the CMOS settings. By default, the board will run at losened latency settings but tighter timings can be selected in the BIOS. "

Thanks,

Kevin

 

[bozo1]

I have that board and am using 2 sticks of OCZ PC3200 (EL Series) and have them running at 2:3:3 without problems. Supposedly they'll run at 2:2:2 if you bump the voltage which you can't do on this board of course.

One thing - when I first got the board, I couldn't get memtest86 to run longer than 5 seconds without totally locking up with either this ram or some Kingston (default timings) until I flashed the BIOS to the latest rev.

 

[Kmogg]

Bozo,
Is this the one you are running?
"OCZ DDR PC-3200 Performance Memory 512MB Model# OCZ400512EL OCZ DDR 512MB PC-3200 Enhanced Latency Series w/ Copper heatspreader, highest performing memory for speed enthusiasts, CAS2.0" $137 at New Egg.

What BIOS sare you at?

Kevin

 

[wicktron]

Just get Crucial. This is not going to be an overclocked computer, and you can't beat Crucial in terms of price/performance/stability/support for a non-overclocked computer.

 

[RalfHutter]

Originally posted by: Kmogg
Thanks Ralf,
I did look for the Buffalo 512 modules on the Intel approved lists, and the only PC 3200 stuff they had was 256 mg. Nothing at PC 3700. Plenty of 333 mhz stuff, though. Mushkin is not on the approved lists at all. I am getting the idea from you that the lists don't mean much though. May or may not work in either way, in which case I would be interested in a moderately priced somewhat higher quality module. ( Though I am still curious as to what the actual real world performance difference would be between CAS 2.5 and CAS 3). You think the Intel board would appreciate the difference between the Buffalo PC 3200 and the Buffalo PC3700? Both are winbond chips.

Both are Winbond chips but the 3200 are CH-5, the 3700 are BH-5. See my comments about CH-5 vs. BH-5 above.

Originally posted by: Kmogg
Is OEM versus retail significant?
If I put in either of the Buffalo, should it autorecognize the correct timings using SPD, or will I have to set manually?

1) I highly doubt that it matters.

2) It should recognize and set the timings by SPD but you should read and understand that caveat about this board and "2-2-2" timings in that Mushkin DDR qualification article that NesuD linked. In other words, just because you have RAM that's "2-2-2" by SPD doesn't necessarily mean the RAM will run at those timings on these 875PBZs. They suggest "2-3-2" as the minimum no matter what the RAM is programmed at.

Originally posted by: Kmogg
The level 2 Mushkin seems to go for $175 at New Egg. If I get a gig, will that really be $150 worth of performance improvement on this board? Or would a faster processor be a better investment?
Looking at the Mushkin website, the level 1 and 2 just applies to the black line, right? ($25 difference). What do you think of the BLue for $129? Compared with the Buffalo ?

1) It not a matter of whether you'd be getting an extra $150 worth of performance because it should be nearly indistinguishable between the PC3700 Buffalo and the PC3200 Level II Mushkin, it's $150 worth of customer service that you'd buy getting.

2) Yes, Level I and II applies only to the Black Line RAM.

3)Mushkin Blue vs. PC3700 Buffalo? Meh. I really like the BH-5 chips on the Buffalo. I think there's a little magic in them that may just help get this DDR400 over whatever "hump" exists in these 865/875 chipsets. I don't know what chips Mushkin uses for the Blues but I know it's not BH-5 Winbonds. It could be anything and it couldeasily vary from stick to stick because they're building them to a much lower tolerance than the Level II Blacks.

 

[Compellor]

Originally posted by: wixt0r
Just get Crucial. This is not going to be an overclocked computer, and you can't beat Crucial in terms of price/performance/stability/support for a non-overclocked computer.

Very true. I got two 512 MB PC3200 sticks running and it's very stable memory. And it does do tighter timings just like the Anand article said. It's funny how people are overlooking this RAM as it does do well in moderate overclocking situations as well.

 

[Kmogg]

Ralf,
THe Bh-5 chips on the Buffalo PC 3700 modules sound good. $99 is certainly in my price range. Not that it is an absolute necessity, but did you say that those modules were tested by Intel? I saw other Buffalo modules on the intel web site but not that one.
I can understand what you are saying about Mushkin support. Their web page is very informative and I liked their forum.
At this point, I think I am comparing the Buffalo PC 3700 and the Crucial. Buying from the Crucial website seems attractive, because their 30 day return policy seems good and the support looks like it might be reasonable (if not up to the level of Mushkin or Corsaire).
The Crucial is CAS 3. THe Buffalo 3700 is CAS 2.5? What would actually be faster with the Buffalo?

THanks for all the advice

Kevin

 

[Kmogg]

The Anandtech article seemed to speak favorably of Crucial's price/performance ratio. As you see from above, I am between the crucial and the Buffalo

WOuld you suggest buying directly from Crucial?

Kevin

 

[Kmogg]

Are you on the Intel Motherboard? what timings are you using?

Kevin Mogg

 

[RalfHutter]

Originally posted by: Kmogg
Are you on the Intel Motherboard? what timings are you using?

Kevin Mogg

If you're talking to me, yes I actually have 2 systems built around 875PBZs. Both ended up with Mushkin PC3200 Level II RAM, one with 2 x 512MB, the other with 2 x 256MB. Timings are 2-3-3-6 on both.

Here's a quote from my original post:

Originally posted by: Ralf Hutter[/i]
My personal experience extends to 2 875PBZ boards. My first one didn't like 2 x 512MB of Kingston PC3200 HyperX or 2 x 512MB of Mushkin Level I PC3200 at default speed or timings. Actually, it didn't like either of those at relaxed timings either. It does work perfect wit 2 x512MB of Mushkin PC3200 Level II RAM. I didn't try anything funny with my second 875PBZ, I just got Mushkin Level II to start with. 2 x 256MB is running great on that board, right out of the box. Would other, cheaper RAM work on either of these boards? Quite possibly but I don't have the time or money to try and find out.

And in my next paragraph I said this:

Originally posted by: Ralf Hutter[/i]

Your thinking seems fine. If you're not going to OC, shouldn't some basic PC3200 RAM work. Yes it certainly should. Will it? You won't know until you try.

And that would be the same answer I'd give you now in response to your question about Crucial and/or Buffalo RAM. And I would also tell you to order your Crucial directly from Crucial as opposed to getting it from a reseller. Crucial's support and RMA system works best if the RAM was originally purchased from them.

As for your question about PC3700 Buffalo running at it's rated SPD (Cas 2.5) vs. Crucial at Cas 3, you'd probably not be able to tell the difference in the real world. The thing is that you'd actually be able to run the Buffalo at Cas 2 because you'd be running it slower (PC3200) then it's rated speed (PC3700) so you'd almost assuredly be able to run it at tighter timings.

 

[Kmogg]

Ralf,
I had read your posts about your two boards with the Mushkin. Think I was responding to Compellor about what timings he got the Crucial to.

The thing is that you'd actually be able to run the Buffalo at Cas 2 because you'd be running it slower (PC3200) then it's rated speed (PC3700) so you'd almost assuredly be able to run it at tighter timings.

Now I get the deal with the PC3700! That was confusing me. Keeping the speed down allows the tighter timing.

Timings are 2-3-3-6 on both

Should I be able to get something close to that on the Buffalo module?
And again the question of real world performance.. Comparing Crucial CAS 3 with the Buffalo on tighter timings, would that be noticeable? Would stuff load faster? Deal with large media files faster?My main concern is with my ability to multitask... Capture TV or media to the hard drive in the background while I do other things.

Kevin

 

[NesuD]

Originally posted by: Kmogg
NesuD,

As you can see, I have been giving the Blue some consideration. I liked the Best Buy $105 deal but was leery of their rma performance. Don't see it at NewEgg. Mushkin sells for $129 now ( the sale was short lived!)The Mushkin webpage mentions "2.5-4-4 @ 400MHz ". Is this what the SPD will automatically recognize, or did you set something on your own?

I assume the following were the comments you were referring to:

"Even though it is available as an option, 2:2:2 latency settings will not work in DDR400 mode, at least not with any DIMMs we have seen so far (including competitor products). CAS-2 (3:3), however works flawlessly. Intel does not have a ClearCMOS jumper on the board, however, setting the "Config" jumper (see below) to 2-3 will override the BIOS setting and boot into safe mode for configuration of the CMOS settings. By default, the board will run at losened latency settings but tighter timings can be selected in the BIOS. "

Thanks,
Kevin

that is what the board itself defaulted the ram timings to. we changed them to 2-3-3 as suggested by mushkin. I read Mushkins comments to mean that basically everyones ram with that board has to be set to slower timings regardless.

 

[Kmogg]

NesuD,
Forgive me if I am asking very basic questions. Ralf says he has his black level 2 Mushkin at 2-3-3-6.
You mention you have your blue Mushkin PC3200 at 2-3-3 . Is that the same as his 2-3-3-6 ? So that kind of means you won the RAM module lottery and your Blue is running the same as his black? Ralf suggests they may vary from module to module. So is the higher priced stuff just more reliably faster?
And how does the Buffalo look to you?

Kevin