Diving into Linux

[Nothinman]

The language is seriously weird though.

Windows is simple, internet explorer (something for exploring the internet), windows explorer (something for exploring windows), windows media player (a media play... well you get the message.

It probably seems simple and logical to you because you know it but the nameing scheme just seems like random words for most things. Apt, sudo and the rest mean absolutely nothing to me and the name give no hint of their meaning. I am learning, but it feels like I'm learning in spite of the system not because of it. Its like someone went out of their way to make it as esoteric as possible.

The actual app names aren't supposed to matter that much and most of the desktop environments provide generic icons for new users. For example, in XFCE here I hit the Applications menu and I see entries for File Manager, Web Browser, Mail Reader, etc instead of Thunar, FireFox and Evolution. How does "Microsoft Excel" mean spreadsheet or Firefox mean web browser? They don't, people learned what they do. Most people refer to Internet Explorer as IE, which also by itself means absolutely nothing.

Computers are general purpose devices, you can't expect to know how to properly use them without any training at all. If you're not willing to poke around and figure out what different apps do, then you probably shouldn't be using a computer for anything outside of what you're been trained for work or whatever.

 

[Jodell88]

The language is seriously weird though.

Windows is simple, internet explorer (something for exploring the internet), windows explorer (something for exploring windows), windows media player (a media play... well you get the message.

It probably seems simple and logical to you because you know it but the nameing scheme just seems like random words for most things. Apt, sudo and the rest mean absolutely nothing to me and the name give no hint of their meaning. I am learning, but it feels like I'm learning in spite of the system not because of it. Its like someone went out of their way to make it as esoteric as possible.

My mom is the most computer inept person I know. She has figured out how to use KDE, Gnome 2, Gnome 3, and XFCE by herself. ^_^

 

[Pistolera]

The language is seriously weird though.

Windows is simple, internet explorer (something for exploring the internet), windows explorer (something for exploring windows), windows media player (a media play... well you get the message.

It probably seems simple and logical to you because you know it but the nameing scheme just seems like random words for most things. Apt, sudo and the rest mean absolutely nothing to me and the name give no hint of their meaning. I am learning, but it feels like I'm learning in spite of the system not because of it. Its like someone went out of their way to make it as esoteric as possible.

All language is seriously weird when you first learn it.

Think of it this way.

Children don't learn definition and etymologies when they're growing up (hell, they don't even learn grammar until much later, let alone style). They just learn that "This thing is called Mom. That thing is a cow. Cow goes Moo."

So instead of trying to understand the reasoning behind the commands, right now, just understand that Command X performs Action Y. Don't ask why it does, just accept that it does it. Avoid getting caught up in semiotics.

I know this *really* helps me when learning a new language or OS's way of doing things.

 

[SMOGZINN]

My mom is the most computer inept person I know. She has figured out how to use KDE, Gnome 2, Gnome 3, and XFCE by herself. ^_^

Then you don't know very computer inept people. My mom has been struggling with how to use a two button mouse for the last decade.

 

[Pistolera]

Then you don't know very computer inept people. My mom has been struggling with how to use a two button mouse for the last decade.

This. I so feel this. I understand it in my very core. Some days I feel like I need to move home just so I can show my mother how to drag and drop a file.

 

[Nothinman]

Then you don't know very computer inept people. My mom has been struggling with how to use a two button mouse for the last decade.

Then no piece of software can really help her. I mean no offense, but if she can't get comfortable working with the hardware then there's no way she'll be comfortable with the software. There are options available for assisting those with disabilities with interacting with the PC, but if it's just that she's too scared to use it and afraid of breaking it then it doesn't matter what software is on the thing.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Then no piece of software can really help her. I mean no offense, but if she can't get comfortable working with the hardware then there's no way she'll be comfortable with the software. There are options available for assisting those with disabilities with interacting with the PC, but if it's just that she's too scared to use it and afraid of breaking it then it doesn't matter what software is on the thing.

Oh, I agree. It does make me wonder though. Will they invent some Minority Report type of haptic VR system in the next 20 years that will leave us in that same position of being incompetent? I mean my dad was a small electronic's enthusiast in his 20's - 40's. He worked for the military doing radar repair and installation. built his own ham radio's, built and repaired custom TV's, and made small electronics of all sorts. I can remember him being excited about PONG and the early Atari game consoles.

But he can't seem to figure out how to send an email in Outlook, even after repeatedly being shown how.

I know this is the wrong forum for this, but it was just something I've been thinking about (as I face my 40th birthday in a few months)

 

[Pistolera]

Oh, I agree. It does make me wonder though. Will they invent some Minority Report type of haptic VR system in the next 20 years that will leave us in that same position of being incompetent? I mean my dad was a small electronic's enthusiast in his 20's - 40's. He worked for the military doing radar repair and installation. built his own ham radio's, built and repaired custom TV's, and made small electronics of all sorts. I can remember him being excited about PONG and the early Atari game consoles.

But he can't seem to figure out how to send an email in Outlook, even after repeatedly being shown how.

I know this is the wrong forum for this, but it was just something I've been thinking about (as I face my 40th birthday in a few months)

It's cool. If Tom Cruise can fingerpaint with YouTube. You'll be able to handle it too.

 

[stuartl89]

I cut my teeth on slackware when it was installed from floppies and transitioned to redhat then mandrake. My job focus changed and I left the linux world for a number of years. I have recently had a need to start building linux servers again and I settled on ubuntu server. It's close enough to what I used in the past to be able to pick up where I left off.

Managing packages via apt is even easier than I remember the rpm system in rh and mandrake. It's definitely easier than building stuff from source. I remember a friend showing me something like this in bsd years ago.

I am not, nor have I ever been a fan of X, so have an install without it makes me happy. GUI's are ok but to me they are just overhead and an unnecessary source of security risks.

Not sure where I am going with this, but I guess I just wanted to say that the modern day linux flavors have really evolved!

-S

 

[hf2046]

I have recently had a need to start building linux servers again and I settled on ubuntu server. It's close enough to what I used in the past to be able to pick up where I left off.

Hmmm... that's funny. I also had a recent need to install Linux and chose Slackware since it seemed to offer the closest experience to Red Hat circa 1999 / 2000.

Then again, I don't really like RPM or other package managers since you can get sucked into dependency hell and prefer to compile stuff from source (via SlackBuilds).

 

[Nothinman]

Hmmm... that's funny. I also had a recent need to install Linux and chose Slackware since it seemed to offer the closest experience to Red Hat circa 1999 / 2000.

Then again, I don't really like RPM or other package managers since you can get sucked into dependency hell and prefer to compile stuff from source (via SlackBuilds).

There hasn't been "dependency hell" for years now and won't as long as you get all of your packages come from properly maintained repositories. Building software from source is a huge waste of time for anyone but developers. You're doing yourself a huge disservice by putting yourself through that.

 

[Jodell88]

Building software from source is a huge waste of time for anyone but developers. You're doing yourself a huge disservice by putting yourself through that.

For most things yes. However, he may want to compile software with patches that are not accepted upstream, or he may want different compile options. You don't have to be a dev to want to do these things.

 

[TheVrolok]

Wish I could make the permanent switch to linux.. I adore it. I simply still play too many pc games and am too lazy to dual boot

 

[Nothinman]

For most things yes. However, he may want to compile software with patches that are not accepted upstream, or he may want different compile options. You don't have to be a dev to want to do these things.

I understand that, however he said he likes to do it to avoid dependency hell (which still exists in compile-time dependencies too, BTW) and uses Slackbuilds so he's not going straight to upstream either.

 

[hf2046]

There hasn't been "dependency hell" for years now and won't as long as you get all of your packages come from properly maintained repositories. Building software from source is a huge waste of time for anyone but developers. You're doing yourself a huge disservice by putting yourself through that.

A huge disservice to myself? I don't quite see it that way...

I actually do need to compile some software from source - most notably rdesktop since sometimes I have to use it with a smart card reader. Most distros don't have that feature turned on (Slackware included) out of the box. I don't need to petition a dev to look at my special case, I can just do it myself.

A second point about compiling using SlackBuilds is that I know exactly which dependencies I need, which means I can better administrate my machine and leave out options that aren't required, such as gnome-vfs, gconf, gecko-wifi, etc. integration in Firefox. (By the way, a SlackBuild is just a shell script to build a Slackware package from source.)

Finally, there's something to be said about being able to download the latest stable kernel source and tailoring it to my machine without having to jump through a bunch of hoops to do so, as it is the case in Ubuntu and RHEL and its derivatives.

 

[Nothinman]

A huge disservice to myself? I don't quite see it that way...

I actually do need to compile some software from source - most notably rdesktop since sometimes I have to use it with a smart card reader. Most distros don't have that feature turned on (Slackware included) out of the box. I don't need to petition a dev to look at my special case, I can just do it myself.

A second point about compiling using SlackBuilds is that I know exactly which dependencies I need, which means I can better administrate my machine and leave out options that aren't required, such as gnome-vfs, gconf, gecko-wifi, etc. integration in Firefox. (By the way, a SlackBuild is just a shell script to build a Slackware package from source.)

Finally, there's something to be said about being able to download the latest stable kernel source and tailoring it to my machine without having to jump through a bunch of hoops to do so, as it is the case in Ubuntu and RHEL and its derivatives.

I understand the reasons behind compiling software yourself, I used to do it all of the time but I just really don't care about a few megs of wasted disk space anymore. Saying you can better administrate the machine because you compiled the software yourself is a farce at best. If anything it's worse because now you can't just rely on automated update processes and because of the time required to update everything, you'll likely put off updates unless they're critical. So while I just run aptitude periodically, you're left spending hours compiling things. And then there's the fact that installing/updating that way doesn't scale at all. I can setup a local repository and have all of my machines updated in lock-step while you're going to end up patching each one by hand which will cost you exponentially more time than it would with a package manager.

I've been using FreeRDP since its fork from rdesktop, but I never use a smart card so I can't say if it makes a difference from that perspective. But still, compiling a single app like that for 1 left-out feature should be the exception, not the norm. And ideally, you would submit a bug report to your distro and/or upstream to get the patch included so that you don't have to keep jumping through the hoops of patching and compiling it every time you update it.

And you can very easily download the latest kernel source and compile it yourself without any hoops. You can either install it the old fashioned way or use make-kpkg to build a .deb from it on Debian/Ubuntu and satisfy any dependencies. And they provide the current kernel's config in /boot so you don't have to start from scratch if you don't want.

It's a great idea to know how to do all of that, however, as I said, it should be the exception and not the rule.

 

[hf2046]

I can setup a local repository and have all of my machines updated in lock-step while you're going to end up patching each one by hand which will cost you exponentially more time than it would with a package manager.

Slackware does have packages and a package manager. I can keep my core system updated with two commands. It just doesn't do dependency management out of the box, which I happen to appreciate. (Come to think of it, there is a utility called slapt-get that offers APT-like functionality, so you have a choice here as well.) All of the packages I create with a SlackBuild script on my x86_64 machine can be installed on any other machine running 64-bit Slackware. I could set up a repo or just write a cron job to keep my machines updated, but since I only have two at the moment, it's pretty easy to use rsync or a simple scp transfer.

I've been using FreeRDP since its fork from rdesktop, but I never use a smart card so I can't say if it makes a difference from that perspective. But still, compiling a single app like that for 1 left-out feature should be the exception, not the norm. And ideally, you would submit a bug report to your distro and/or upstream to get the patch included so that you don't have to keep jumping through the hoops of patching and compiling it every time you update it.

It does. I looked at FreeRDP a few months ago and it didn't have support for smart cards, so I stick with rdesktop, for better or for worse. It gets the job done. Compiling doesn't take too long (a few minutes) and all the config options are documented in the SlackBuild script so it's mostly an automated process going from a compressed tar to a Slackware package.

And you can very easily download the latest kernel source and compile it yourself without any hoops. You can either install it the old fashioned way or use make-kpkg to build a .deb from it on Debian/Ubuntu and satisfy any dependencies. And they provide the current kernel's config in /boot so you don't have to start from scratch if you don't want.

Yeah, sorry. I was recalling how difficult it was to compile the kernel from source that the distro ships with.

It's a great idea to know how to do all of that, however, as I said, it should be the exception and not the rule.

It is to a great deal, the exception in my situation. I'm not a 'Linux From Scratch' kinda guy, though it does seem like a lot of fun. I grab the VLC and LibreOffice packages pre-built, and I check for binary packages and SlackBuilds.org before I decide to create my own SlackBuild for a piece of software that doesn't come pre-installed.

Having said that, I see value in understanding how to build software from source, and working with a distro where they make it relatively easy for a user to do that in a systematic, documented way is a win in my estimation.

 

[Nothinman]

Slackware does have packages and a package manager. I can keep my core system updated with two commands. It just doesn't do dependency management out of the box, which I happen to appreciate. (Come to think of it, there is a utility called slapt-get that offers APT-like functionality, so you have a choice here as well.) All of the packages I create with a SlackBuild script on my x86_64 machine can be installed on any other machine running 64-bit Slackware. I could set up a repo or just write a cron job to keep my machines updated, but since I only have two at the moment, it's pretty easy to use rsync or a simple scp transfer.

A package manager without dependency management isn't really a package manager, it's a wrapper around wget and tar.

It does. I looked at FreeRDP a few months ago and it didn't have support for smart cards, so I stick with rdesktop, for better or for worse. It gets the job done. Compiling doesn't take too long (a few minutes) and all the config options are documented in the SlackBuild script so it's mostly an automated process going from a compressed tar to a Slackware package.

That's surprising considering that FreeRDP is a fork of rdesktop, but like I said I've never used the smart card support.

Yeah, sorry. I was recalling how difficult it was to compile the kernel from source that the distro ships with.

I never knew that was a pain. Debian has always shipped the source of their kernels in a simple to build format and you can use the 'apt-get source' command to get the source in a ready-build format for any package in their distro.

Having said that, I see value in understanding how to build software from source, and working with a distro where they make it relatively easy for a user to do that in a systematic, documented way is a win in my estimation.

Debian has always made it simple to get and build the source for their packages with the upstream source separate from any patches they may include and you still get the benefit of ~40,000 packages that are pre-built and ready to install with virtually zero effort on your part.

 

[bamx2]

I am a tech challenged Win7 user and experimenting with Zorin OS and like it . I plan to move on to Mint after I get some experience . -

http://www.zorin-os.com/

 

[lxskllr]

I am a tech challenged Win7 user and experimenting with Zorin OS and like it . I plan to move on the Mint after I some experience . -

http://www.zorin-os.com/

That looks ok, but keep in mind the most difficult transition isn't likely the gui, but the way the core works. Most distros are easy enough to figure out by poking buttons and seeing what happens. Learning how to administer the system is where things can get tricky. If your hardware works, you're pretty much home free, and you should have an easy enough time with almost any major distro.

 

[Nothinman]

I am a tech challenged Win7 user and experimenting with Zorin OS and like it . I plan to move on the Mint after I some experience . -

http://www.zorin-os.com/

There have been several distros that have tried to clone Windows in an attempt to win over Windows users and all of them have failed. Linux isn't Windows and trying to make it so just doesn't work well. And it gets more confusing because you end up expecting it to work like Windows which it won't in many aspects. You're better off picking a popular distribution and treating it like a new OS and putting in a little bit of time and effort to learn the system.

 

[alkemyst]

There have been several distros that have tried to clone Windows in an attempt to win over Windows users and all of them have failed. Linux isn't Windows and trying to make it so just doesn't work well. And it gets more confusing because you end up expecting it to work like Windows which it won't in many aspects. You're better off picking a popular distribution and treating it like a new OS and putting in a little bit of time and effort to learn the system.

It's helpful for those that have to use Windows outside of LINUX and want a common look and feel though.

 

[Nothinman]

It's helpful for those that have to use Windows outside of LINUX and want a common look and feel though.

But it gives them the false sense that it's the same or close to it which they inevitably find out the hard way and then they end up with a more sour than normal experience.

 

[alkemyst]

But it gives them the false sense that it's the same or close to it which they inevitably find out the hard way and then they end up with a more sour than normal experience.

outside the novice, I was referring to why a windows look and feel is nice.

 

[rkhalloran]

If you insist on 'Brand M' apps, of course you'll have heartburn moving to Linux.

On the other hand, there's programs like Firefox or Chrome for websurfing, VLC (videolan.org) or SMPlayer (smplayer.sourceforge.net) for media playback, Thunderbird for email, LibreOffice, Handbrake for transcoding, etc etc that run just fine in both Windows and Linux. Using these it becomes much simpler to migrate your desktop over.

You might also want to look at KDE as a desktop for something with a generally similar feel to the Windows environment. Not saying it's a lookalike, but probably close enough to help you feel more comfortable. [ And given what I've seen in the press about Win8, a *LOT* more similar than what MS is trying to shove down everyone's throat... ]