Does God exist to you.

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HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: Trinitron
Clearly? Do you see the blueprints lying around somewhere and I missed it?

The laws of physics would not support life if they were adjusted slightly in either direction. Since these laws are constant it is unlikely they would just "form" by random chance. I suggest you do some research on creation-science. Even if you do not agree with it at least you will have seen the other side of the coin.

I've seen the other side. There's not really any such thing as creation "science." What they do is point out "holes" in scientific theories and claim that god must have done it. A lot of the time they just don't understand the subject they're trying to discredit.

I do agree that we have quite a bit of explaining left to do when it comes to the universe. A possible explanation for the universe being so perfect for life is that there are multiple universes. I know it's not exactly the best explanation but we don't have much more than it right now.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
This...


Just more that points toward creationism and against evolution.

What did any of that have to do with evolution? Actually, what does evolution have to do with what we're talking about?
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
This...


Just more that points toward creationism and against evolution.

What did any of that have to do with evolution? Actually, what does evolution have to do with what we're talking about?


It points toward creationism. If you read it you would know that. Obviously, if creationism is true, then so is the Bible, and so is God.

There are also scientific pieces of evidence that show the great flood took place, and they think they may have found Noahs ark as well. They are just having a tough time reaching it up in a mountain in Turkey. The Turkish Gov. isn't letting scientists get to it last I heard.
 

Fides

Member
Jan 20, 2003
90
0
0
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Fair enough. But really what's evil to one person is honorable to another.

In only the most extreeme cases (i.e: a man is mentally insane) will you see somone finding joy in killing in cold blood. I think 99% of people here or anywhere, of any culture, can say that murder is bad. I wont even use the word evil here because it has a whole wide rage of implications, but lets just say murder is a malevolent act which serves as a detriment to society. You can use all the relativism you want, but murder is just plain bad no matter which way you put it. Love on the other had breeds benevolence, and no matter which way you see it, it CANT be bad. Lust is a perversion of love btw.
 

HannibalX

Diamond Member
May 12, 2000
9,359
2
0
There's not really any such thing as creation "science."

That is an opinion and you are welcome to it. Cuda posted a great article, one of many that is scientific and does not attempt to disprove evolution but it does prove creation. What he posted is creation science, real science not just poking holes in evolution.
 

Fides

Member
Jan 20, 2003
90
0
0
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: Trinitron
Clearly? Do you see the blueprints lying around somewhere and I missed it?

The laws of physics would not support life if they were adjusted slightly in either direction. Since these laws are constant it is unlikely they would just "form" by random chance. I suggest you do some research on creation-science. Even if you do not agree with it at least you will have seen the other side of the coin.

I've seen the other side. There's not really any such thing as creation "science." What they do is point out "holes" in scientific theories and claim that god must have done it. A lot of the time they just don't understand the subject they're trying to discredit.

I do agree that we have quite a bit of explaining left to do when it comes to the universe. A possible explanation for the universe being so perfect for life is that there are multiple universes. I know it's not exactly the best explanation but we don't have much more than it right now.

The problem with scientific knowledge is that it will NEVER be absolute no matter how much we try to figure stuff out. Nothing in the universe is absolute except the universe itself which must have been made by an absolute force to begin with.

 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
This...


Just more that points toward creationism and against evolution.

What did any of that have to do with evolution? Actually, what does evolution have to do with what we're talking about?


It points toward creationism. If you read it you would know that. Obviously, if creationism is true, then so is the Bible, and so is God.

There are also scientific pieces of evidence that show the great flood took place, and they think they may have found Noahs ark as well. They are just having a tough time reaching it up in a mountain in Turkey. The Turkish Gov. isn't letting scientists get to it last I heard.

I can almost guarantee you a great flood took place. A lot of the early civilizations had flood stories but that doesn't mean they didn't live through them. That is assuming you're a fundamentalist and believe that Noah and his family were the only ones to make it through the flood. I actually saw a show about the Noah's ark thing. It turns out that there was no real evidence for it besides the fact that it LOOKED like it could have been. All they went by was around where it should be and the shape it would have made in a mountain. That's pretty shaky evidence.

You can't really prove creationism. You would have to prove god to prove creationism and that is impossible. And that link you gave still had nothing to do with evolution and neither does this thread really.
 

HannibalX

Diamond Member
May 12, 2000
9,359
2
0
And that link you gave still had nothing to do with evolution and neither does this thread really.

He said it points to creationism... he never said it was about evolution. You were the first to mention evolution.
 

Fides

Member
Jan 20, 2003
90
0
0
I really dont think we should look to the flood story in the bible for a reason to believe in God. It seems to be more allegorical in meaning than litteral.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
This...


Just more that points toward creationism and against evolution.

He said it points to creationism... he never said it was about evolution. You were the first to mention evolution.

I don't think that was me but let's just drop it anyhow.

Originally posted by: Fides
In only the most extreeme cases (i.e: a man is mentally insane) will you see somone finding joy in killing in cold blood. I think 99% of people here or anywhere, of any culture, can say that murder is bad. I wont even use the word evil here because it has a whole wide rage of implications, but lets just say murder is a malevolent act which serves as a detriment to society. You can use all the relativism you want, but murder is just plain bad no matter which way you put it. Love on the other had breeds benevolence, and no matter which way you see it, it CANT be bad. Lust is a perversion of love btw.

It depends on what you consider murder. Is self-defense murder? How about killing someone in a war? Hitler thought he was doing a good thing and so did millions around the world. You may think that good and bad is black and white but there is a LOT of gray in there.

The problem with scientific knowledge is that it will NEVER be absolute no matter how much we try to figure stuff out. Nothing in the universe is absolute except the universe itself which must have been made by an absolute force to begin with.

That problem is also a good thing about science. There's always something new to learn. We're always looking for things to explain or explain more efficiently. To me that's better than just pointing to something and saying god made it.
 

KIAman

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
3,342
23
81
People who believe in God have their own benefits when they do. In the end, does it really matter if one believed in God or not? Everyone will die, that is for sure, but IF there is God and heaven out there, it's not going to hurt those who believe in God, at the same time, IF there wasn't a heaven or a God, it STILL wont hurt the people who believe in Him, since they will be dead anyways.
So for people who DO believe in God, it is a win situation either way, whether God is real or not.

On the other hand, for people who do NOT believe in God, IF he is not real, then in the end they are seriously screwed, but IF there is no God and Heaven then you are in the same boat as everyone who do believe in all sorts of whetever.

So, my conclusion without any sort of irrelavent arguments about history and scientific laws or whatnot, I would prefer believing in God. The score is better in their favor in the end.

Good-luck to the rest of you.
 

xirtam

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2001
4,693
0
0
KIAman's philosophy = Pascal's wager.

Weak position imo. Rather than focusing on truth, it focuses on possible consequences... i.e. "IF I were to rob a bank AND get away with it... the 'score' is better in my favor."

Mankind cannot see the future and they're not mind-readers like this program, so consequentialism is flawed, at least if you want to preserve intellectual integrity (argument in condensed form).
 

KIAman

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
3,342
23
81
Whether my argument was Pascal's whatever still doesnt take away the simplicity of it. Besides, I was not focusing on POSSIBLE consequences, I was focusing on the truth that we all will DIE. If we all die in the end, and I had 2 ways of doing things, then I would do the way that will hurt the least.

Dying is not like robbing a bank or killing someone or making ANY sort of choice, it is just a fact.
 

KIAman

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
3,342
23
81
No, I never declared I was religious, and why does that argument bother people. Its not like any intellectual argument can help prove if God exists or not, for all I care, people can argue all they want, time is just ticking away.
Im not trying to prove there is a God. Just that if someone held a gone to my head and was determined to kill me whether I licki licki his nutz or not, I'd rather not. Arguing about whether God is real or not, nobody will win or prove much of anything. So work backwards... we all are ded...
 

SuepaFly

Senior member
Jun 3, 2001
972
0
0
Originally posted by: KIAman
People who believe in God have their own benefits when they do. In the end, does it really matter if one believed in God or not? Everyone will die, that is for sure, but IF there is God and heaven out there, it's not going to hurt those who believe in God, at the same time, IF there wasn't a heaven or a God, it STILL wont hurt the people who believe in Him, since they will be dead anyways.
So for people who DO believe in God, it is a win situation either way, whether God is real or not.

On the other hand, for people who do NOT believe in God, IF he is not real, then in the end they are seriously screwed, but IF there is no God and Heaven then you are in the same boat as everyone who do believe in all sorts of whetever.

So, my conclusion without any sort of irrelavent arguments about history and scientific laws or whatnot, I would prefer believing in God. The score is better in their favor in the end.

Good-luck to the rest of you.


So you believe just to be safe? Does that qualify as believing?

I'm not totally knocking it, perhaps on some level everyone does that, but idealistically believing in God means acknowledging His existance and His part in who, what, where you are and will become. Not necessarily just for the benefits of Christian post-death. Believing and faith is much more than proclaiming it. Like marriage, you don't marry a person just because you wouldn't be unhappy with them, to me theres a higher ideal working in the background.


Death is a part of life, true, its your satisfaction with your life that changes the perspective on death for the person dying. I would be very afraid to die if I hadn't lived a life I could be proud of, equally I would be accepting of my death if I can look back on my life with some amount of dignity. Its different for everyone, but to me, a big part is whether I stick by my convictions (including my ideals about God).
 

KIAman

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
3,342
23
81
That is my logical analyisis. My personal analysis is just that, personal, and I would never need to defend my personal faith and devotion to God. Besides, even if I go in depth about it, every person will interpret it differently. God's awesome gift of choice will allow those interpretations. I don't see why you people who do believe in God feel the need to try so hard to prove to everyone else that he exists when God only called us to be the seed planters. The rest is between the other person and God. Very Very personal stuff. U probably are pushing them further away out of spite.
 

xirtam

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2001
4,693
0
0
Whether my argument was Pascal's whatever still doesnt take away the simplicity of it. Besides, I was not focusing on POSSIBLE consequences, I was focusing on the truth that we all will DIE. If we all die in the end, and I had 2 ways of doing things, then I would do the way that will hurt the least.

Dying is not like robbing a bank or killing someone or making ANY sort of choice, it is just a fact.

The question was about the truth about God, a truth that you're deciding based upon these possible consequences. (post-death, yes, but possible consequences nonetheless)

In essence, you resorted to a utilitarianistic criteria for deciding the identity/existence of God based upon what happens to a certain individual when he dies. But you see, you can never make enough what-ifs. Your hypothetical system is fundamentally flawed. I'll show you what *does* take away from the simplicity of it.

IF there is God and heaven out there, it's not going to hurt those who believe in God,

This makes a statement about a God we haven't proven. What if God's a big fan of rationalism and since -- according to others, and seemingly, you-- He has not provided sufficient reason in the universe to believe in Him, He actually prefers those who do *not* believe in Him since they do it on the basis of rational integrity?

at the same time, IF there wasn't a heaven or a God, it STILL wont hurt the people who believe in Him, since they will be dead anyways.

What if there's something else... say, a parallel universe or a time-shifting dimension. Or perhaps reincarnation is an option and we're punished by nature for actions committed on this world. And say this "nature" naturally selected those who believed in God because their faith invoked a hormone called adeniphroen into their systems, catalyzing a mass-chain biological reaction and ultimately leading to greater reproductive success in future reincarnated generations. (Yes, I got creative, but you get the idea.)

So for people who DO believe in God, it is a win situation either way, whether God is real or not.

This is assuming that we care only for "win situations" and not for truth. You're making a statement for a basis of faith that says "I don't care if I'm wrong." That's not a very solid basis, and we can't ask others to share this basis. The consequentialist view, while human, is imperfect, incomplete, and ultimately flawed in that too many assumptions are made about what is/what is not/what is the nature of. So while death is not equivalent to robbing a bank, what we choose to believe about post-mortem phenomena can have the same flawed justifications and rationalizations that one might have about robbing a bank or committing a murder. Greatest good for either a) the greatest number (altruistic form) or b) self (egoistic form).

That's all I'm saying. I wasn't making an ad hominem attack against Pascal. I admire the man for many of his works. Philosophy is not one of them.
 
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