Domestic is dead!

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
As Toyota and Honda open factories and GM and Ford close them, I can now proudly say the following:

!#$!#@$ domestics.

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/...ths-hybrid-060-in-4-seconds-224834.php

Toyota now has the trifecta of awesome.

They're relaeasing a hawt-looking sports car (#1 of awesome trifecta) with ungodly performance (#2 of trifecta) that's based on environmentally friendly new technology (#3 of trifecta).

0-60 in 4 seconds is enough to make those guys in gas-guzzling Mustangs look twice.
 

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,224
306
126
Agreed - very much should be in off-topic.

Now, on the other hand - we could talk about the currency manipulation the Japanese government has used to keep their product cheaper and improve profits.

We could talk about how the "Japanese" hybrid technology was actually developed by an American company, partially funded by Ford, and that the Japanese have used very misleading advertising - though they did manage to jump on the patent bandwagon first so that they "owned" portions of it.

We could talk about the US media's absolutely reluctance to talk about Japanese quality problems.

We could talk about the ongoing investigation in Japan regarding fradulent recalls, non-recalls when there should have been recalls, and serious quality problems.

We could talk about the "service campaigns" the Japanese use here to avoid doing recalls - offering an oil change then doing other "work" on the car etc.

We could talk about the Japanese influence on the media - for instance the recent change to safety requirements in several magazines that completely removed US built cars because they don't have stability control standard.

We could talk about the fact that 1 automotive job supports 10 other jobs in the United States.

We could talk about the fact that Ford and GM are two of the top R&D companies in the US (surpassed only by Pfizer and Microsoft).

We could talk about the fact that the majority of the money Japanese companies earn goes back to Japan to support white collar jobs like design, and R&D - NOT here to the Americas.

Or, lastly, we could talk about this sad little pissant who posted the original post who has absolutely no idea what is going to happen to the US economy when the US manufacturing companies like Ford and GM finally close shop. He probably thinks he's in a field that won't see any effect - blind idiots are like that sometimes. He probably doesn't understand that losing millions and millions of high paying jobs is going to destroy the economy here. Or he doesn't care. He doesn't understand that the Automotive industry is THE driving force behind most of the WORLDS economy - that other countries protect their automotive companies with a ferocity not to be believed. He probably doesn't understand that the Japanese and Chinese have laws preventing foreign firms from owning their companies, and while that continues our companies are being snatched up by government financed firms out of China and Japan.

We could go on forever about what this poster doesn't understand. We could talk about all of that. But it probably belongs in off topic.
 

Aluvus

Platinum Member
Apr 27, 2006
2,913
1
0
Originally posted by: LsDPulsar
We could talk about how the "Japanese" hybrid technology was actually developed by an American company, partially funded by Ford, and that the Japanese have used very misleading advertising - though they did manage to jump on the patent bandwagon first so that they "owned" portions of it.

American companies did work on modern hybrids early on... and then the US automakers killed the programs. Japanese companies get a lot more credit because they (Toyota, Honda) put hybrid cars on the mass-market years before any American company.

We could talk about the fact that 1 automotive job supports 10 other jobs in the United States.

Japanese automakers keep a portion of automotive jobs in the US because it is cheaper to have those jobs closer to the target market. And those require a certain amount of local support.

Quite frankly, the US automakers thoroughly deserve the beating they are currently taking. I sincerely hope it is the kick in the pants they need to finally become really competitive again.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: LsDPulsar
Agreed - very much should be in off-topic.

Or, lastly, we could talk about this sad little pissant who posted the original post who has absolutely no idea what is going to happen to the US economy when the US manufacturing companies like Ford and GM finally close shop. He probably thinks he's in a field that won't see any effect - blind idiots are like that sometimes. He probably doesn't understand that losing millions and millions of high paying jobs is going to destroy the economy here. Or he doesn't care. He doesn't understand that the Automotive industry is THE driving force behind most of the WORLDS economy - that other countries protect their automotive companies with a ferocity not to be believed. He probably doesn't understand that the Japanese and Chinese have laws preventing foreign firms from owning their companies, and while that continues our companies are being snatched up by government financed firms out of China and Japan.

I live in Wisconsin.

I've seen how people who work for GM live. The factories are in some ways laughably old-fashioned - a lot of work is done by hand. If you've taken a tour, you'll notice that a lot of the final assembly is done by people with wrenches, most of which drive second-hand cars a fraction as expensive as what they're assembling.

I've been seeing them lose their jobs, too - it's sad. Honda and Toyota have not been closing any factories in the US as far as I know, while GM is outsourcing more and more to China.

Sure, occasionally Toyota and Honda do a snarky thing - I've seen more crashed Ford Explorers than any other car. I don't give a dang wether it's an american company - Ford and GM manufacture automobiles have poorer fuel economy than Japanese cars, with inferior reliability.

I've seen how Pfizer bribes doctors (bribes is an accurate term - $60-a-plate dinners and $600 "buisness trips" don't really constitute a "necessary expense") and pushes medications to those who do not need them via endless, expensive advertising.

And Microsoft? I'm now a Linux user - I'm learning the command line. They're the worst of the lot - I've paid multiple times for the same thing, and as far as I'm concerned, they're never getting another penny of my money.

Originally posted by: Aluvus


Quite frankly, the US automakers thoroughly deserve the beating they are currently taking. I sincerely hope it is the kick in the pants they need to finally become really competitive again.

That's what I want to hear. I've seen how GM has killed pension plans, and how people - these auto workers LsDpulsar wants to protect so much - have suffered.

There are some very good American-made cars on the market - examples being the Ford Focus and its derivative, the Mazda3. (Ford owns Mazda, you know.) GM's Cobalt line is supposed to be decent, and my auto-wizard buddy can work wonders with old GM engines - I think he once managed to get 60mpg on an old big-block, though I really have no idea what he's talking about.

And now, back to the original topic...

I'm hoping to see much smaller, lighter cars - the Honda CRX, if you're not driving on the same road as a bunch of huge SUVs, is a fine car that's also reasonably safe. Re-built with a hybrid engine, the result would be a fast, sporty car that would be both reasonable in cost and very fuel efficient.

Thoughts?

 

Kreon

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2006
1,329
0
0
GM and Ford deserve the beating they've been taking....

They keep doing things the old fashioned way that doesn't work anymore
They need to inmtegrate new technologies, like hybrids, alternative fuels, and alternative engines (like the Japanese Rotary Engine)

Once they do this, they'll be competitive again
Assuming they can actaully mass produce these things (I am aware they've been R&Ding these things)
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: Kreon
GM and Ford deserve the beating they've been taking....

They keep doing things the old fashioned way that doesn't work anymore
They need to inmtegrate new technologies, like hybrids, alternative fuels, and alternative engines (like the Japanese Rotary Engine)

Once they do this, they'll be competitive again
Assuming they can actaully mass produce these things (I am aware they've been R&Ding these things)

I wonder if Ford will start using the rotary engine?

It's always been less efficient than competing piston engines, but the horsepower-to-weight ratio is ridiculous. And it's improved over the years, too - had it the 60-odd years that the piston engine was around before it, it would likely be a superior engine.

Ford now is the owner of Mazda. Mazda is the only company making rotary engines for cars.

As long as we're on the topic, it will require extensive re-tooling of the engine to make it run properly on ethanol. As long as they're re-working an engine, why not re-work a fundamentally better one?

As a side note, a gallon of ethanol now takes a gallon of oil to make. @#$!@$# corn lobbyists have made it that way. Were we using, say, genetically modified sawgrass, it would be maybe a 1:8 ratio.
 

railhan

Junior Member
Jan 1, 2007
1
0
0
Well ... I really think that GM and Ford are not competitive and still living in 20th century.

The average build quality of Fords and GMs is lower that their European and Japan rivals (of course there are always exceptions). They are usually not quite good looking, big and heavy, not quite economical, the interior is usually cheap looking and lack the latest gadgets. ( I want to make it clear - there are exceptions - Focus for example is a good car. )

GM and Ford are doing most of their sales in N.America. Check Ford's reports for example :
2005 annual reports

Global overview
Financial

Ford is not that bad. Focus and some of their minivans for example are very successful. Also they have brands like Volvo, Mazda, Land Rover, Jaguar and Aston Martin that are successful worldwide.
GM is a different story. Although that I couldn't find a useful report on their site I'm quite sure that they are doing 75-85% of their sales in N.America. None of their brands is popular worldwide.

Low gas prices in USA also help them keep their sales. If the gasoline prices in N.America reach the European levels a lot of people with have to switch to more economical cars. Overall European and Japan cars are more economical than their US Rivals.

Just my thoughts.
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
81
From what I hear about labor at GM plants under the unions, I'm surprised they're anywhere close to making a profit.
 

santaliqueur

Member
Feb 8, 2005
114
0
0
Originally posted by: bobsmith1492
From what I hear about labor at GM plants under the unions, I'm surprised they're anywhere close to making a profit.

when you read about job banks, i'm surprised they have managed to stay afloat until now.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
Originally posted by: Kreon
... and alternative engines (like the Japanese Rotary Engine)
You mean the Wankel rotary engine. The one invented in Germany by Felix Wankel.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
Originally posted by: Cheesehead
I wonder if Ford will start using the rotary engine?

It's always been less efficient than competing piston engines, but the horsepower-to-weight ratio is ridiculous. And it's improved over the years, too - had it the 60-odd years that the piston engine was around before it, it would likely be a superior engine.

If power-to-weight was that important, people wouldn't have ever moved away from 2-stroke, or towards turbines in boats and planes. Efficiency is really a more important fundamental measure. Besides, they have piston engines that spin at better rates than those Mazda rotaries, and have more torque besides. The rotary engine doesn't make sense to me.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: railhan

Ford is not that bad. Focus and some of their minivans for example are very successful. Also they have brands like Volvo, Mazda, Land Rover, Jaguar and Aston Martin that are successful worldwide.

Mazda actually sells very well in the middle east. If you visit Israel (before you say anthing, remember that Conroe was developed there - it's not all bad!), you'll see Mazda3's and Mazda6's all over the place.
Coincidentally, the Mazda3 is more or less a Ford Focus (which was a "Japanese" style car to begin with) with a better performing Mazda engine and a few improvements. (Coincidentally, the Mazda3 gets 30 miles to the gallon on the highway, which is very handy when gas is over four dollars a gallon.)

My father owns a Mazda3 5-door himself - it's got some design problems and annoying quirks (it bottoms out regularly, for example, when driving over the smallest of potholes), but it's an excellent car nonetheless.


Originally posted by: jagec
Originally posted by: Cheesehead
I wonder if Ford will start using the rotary engine?

It's always been less efficient than competing piston engines, but the horsepower-to-weight ratio is ridiculous. And it's improved over the years, too - had it the 60-odd years that the piston engine was around before it, it would likely be a superior engine.

If power-to-weight was that important, people wouldn't have ever moved away from 2-stroke, or towards turbines in boats and planes. Efficiency is really a more important fundamental measure. Besides, they have piston engines that spin at better rates than those Mazda rotaries, and have more torque besides. The rotary engine doesn't make sense to me.

Pushing things up and down is fundementally inefficient. A rotary piston should, in theory, waste less energy.

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Originally posted by: Kreon
... and alternative engines (like the Japanese Rotary Engine)
You mean the Wankel rotary engine. The one invented in Germany by Felix Wankel.

Good point.

However, it was the Japanese automakers that actually did anything with it.

 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
0
The domestics sold their souls for cheap labor and refused to look ahead and plan for the future.

A few years ago I may have argued about it, but today it is obvious.

What we need to do is grow hemp for biomass. It is the best crop available for this purpose.

http://www.hemp4fuel.com/
 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,219
0
0
Oil is in a tank half dry. Nothing will keep our cars on the road-the Saab Aero is cooler.

Rogo
 

KMurphy

Golden Member
May 16, 2000
1,014
0
0
Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Oil is in a tank half dry. Nothing will keep our cars on the road-the Saab Aero is cooler.

Rogo

Do you write those spam messages that flood my email? The writing style is familiar.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
Originally posted by: KMurphy
Originally posted by: Rogodin2
Oil is in a tank half dry. Nothing will keep our cars on the road-the Saab Aero is cooler.

Rogo

Do you write those spam messages that flood my email? The writing style is familiar.

:laugh: That's funny!
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
Originally posted by: Agent11
The domestics sold their souls for cheap labor and refused to look ahead and plan for the future.

A few years ago I may have argued about it, but today it is obvious.

What we need to do is grow hemp for biomass. It is the best crop available for this purpose.

http://www.hemp4fuel.com/

I thought rapeseed had about the highest oil-per-acre yield for biodiesel...of the land-based crops, at least, I've read a couple things about algae that sounded too good to be true.

I'm skeptical of the hemp crowd for the same reason I'm skeptical of the corn lobby...sometimes it seems like they're trying to prove the merits of their specific plant after the fact, rather than examining all posibilities and picking the best after exhaustive research.

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
Pushing things up and down is fundementally inefficient. A rotary piston should, in theory, waste less energy.

Turbine engines are efficient. But the Wankel has too many other downsides to make up for the advantage of a rotary design.
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
81
I had an old professor who sounded convinced that miniaturized turbines were the way of the future; imagine plugging a canister of hydrogen the size of an airsoft CO2 cartridge into your laptop and running for days, exhausting only a drip of warm water... well, it sounds far fetched to me, but on an automobile scale, why are there no gas turbines available for standard automobiles? I know they use them for tanks - what are the downsides? Loud? Poor/incompatible power/torque characteristics? Not possible to reduce in scale? How much more efficient than a standard V6 would one of comparable size and/or power be?
 

Kreon

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2006
1,329
0
0
Go GM

See their new car? the Volt
It's gonna be made, all they need is somebody to mass produce the battery
Gonna own, till the oil companies pay GM off

Ya American Capitalism
 

zsouthboy

Platinum Member
Aug 14, 2001
2,264
0
0
Is it me, or would this be simply capitalism in action?

Make crappy, overpriced product - someone else makes a better one (or is a better marketer, both are valid), the bad one goes bye bye.

Or, the government steps in to "save jobs."
 
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