Doom 3 Benchmarks at [H]

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Pete

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
4,953
0
0
?

They run at a higher precision than nVidia in Doom 3, anyway. Not that it makes a difference for the game (obviously that answer was marketspeak for, "Hey! Look over there!" /runs), but it's true.

Oh, full precision means FP32 to you? Well, that's nice, but it hasn't got much to do with D3, does it?

Anyway, people can wave as many features as they want, but the bottom line is the GF6 spanks the R4 in D3.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,000
126
ATi's response is typical PR rubbish. The real problem here is that they've allowed their OpenGL ICD to sit unoptimized for such a long time and only now when Doom III is almost out they're scrambling to do something about it.

As a consumer I'm annoyed that I've been running unoptimal OpenGL drivers for over two years. I'm also annoyed that ATi lambasted nVidia for not delivering drivers that work well in all applications yet here they are, ready to produce drivers just for Doom III.
 

Pete

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
4,953
0
0
Well, they seem to have improved Wolf:ET performance markedly in the past few months. The last time I tried using my 9100, 10x7 was unplayable in Radar. Now, it seems twice as fast.
 

ZimZum

Golden Member
Aug 2, 2001
1,281
0
76
Originally posted by: BFG10K
ATi's response is typical PR rubbish. The real problem here is that they've allowed their OpenGL ICD to sit unoptimized for such a long time and only now when Doom III is almost out they're scrambling to do something about it.

As a consumer I'm annoyed that I've been running unoptimal OpenGL drivers for over two years. I'm also annoyed that ATi lambasted nVidia for not delivering drivers that work well in all applications yet here they are, ready to produce drivers just for Doom III.

ATI is currently completely rewriting their OpenGL drivers from the ground up.
 

nemesismk2

Diamond Member
Sep 29, 2001
4,810
5
76
www.ultimatehardware.net
Originally posted by: Pete
Well, they seem to have improved Wolf:ET performance markedly in the past few months. The last time I tried using my 9100, 10x7 was unplayable in Radar. Now, it seems twice as fast.

Seems faster isn't a very accurate way to benchmark, we want numbers and screenshots!
 

thedude80

Junior Member
Jul 25, 2004
7
0
0
Hi all.

I´m going to buy a new system (currently work with a laptop plus i have a fileserver). I´d like to have a small Shuttle PC to work with VMWare, Office applications etc. (work stuff)

But I´d also like to play some games with it, e.g. Doom 3.

As of now, I´ve decided to grab an AMD 3000 (64 or 32 bit?) CPU along with 1GB ram.

But when it comes to the graphics, I`m lost... what kind of adapter can I put in the shuttle pc? (it has only 1 AGP and 1 PCI slot) - the gfx card should be really silent... would a 9600 XT be sufficient to play Doom3?

Any hints on models for a Shuttle PC? I need to find a balance between performance and silence... please help!
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
Why the hell when your getting all that nice equipment would you get a 9600XT!??! All graphics cards are extremely quiet now a days. Get at the very least a 5900XT or a 9800Pro. The 5900XT will probably do better in Doom III but the 9800Pro will do better in 70% of everythign else out there.

With that system though you should look next gen... the 6800NU the GT and the X800Pro will are work.

To try to run DoomIII on a 9600XT you will lose a lot. ANd it will probably run slow.

Why dont you look at the benchmarks done at |H| make your own judgement.

-Kevin
 

thedude80

Junior Member
Jul 25, 2004
7
0
0
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Why the hell when your getting all that nice equipment would you get a 9600XT!??! All graphics cards are extremely quiet now a days.

I´m not really up-to-date... last card i had was a GF4 4200 which was rather noisy...

Can you recommend a 9800 that fits into a Shuttle PC?
 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
10,460
0
0
Originally posted by: thedude80
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Why the hell when your getting all that nice equipment would you get a 9600XT!??! All graphics cards are extremely quiet now a days.

I´m not really up-to-date... last card i had was a GF4 4200 which was rather noisy...

Can you recommend a 9800 that fits into a Shuttle PC?

They all do?

If you're buying a new computer I don't know why you would cheat yourself with a 9800Pro, especially when you want to play Doom3?
I have a 6800NU. I cannot hear it in my case. For $300, it's likely it will run Doom3 and HL2 MUCH better than a $200 9800Pro.

If you want ATI, you should spend the $400 for a X800Pro. Buying last year's second rung card this is asking for disappointment in the next couple years. The technology changes too fast, and games keep wanting more power. The 9800Pro lost 50% of it's performance running DX9 "Wallet Raider" in Anand's review here last year. Hint: many of the games coming out in the next few years will be DX9?
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
If you really want to play DoomIII then the 9800Pro is OK but any Nvidia card 5900Xt and up should do it better.

A 6800NU is around 260$, i would get that then a 5900XT and then a 9800Pro. That is if your only gonna play DoomIII. The 9800Pro beats the 5900XT (though marginally in some tests) in about 70% of todays games.

-Kevin
 

thedude80

Junior Member
Jul 25, 2004
7
0
0
Originally posted by: Rollo

I have a 6800NU. I cannot hear it in my case. For $300, it's likely it will run Doom3 and HL2 MUCH better than a $200 9800Pro.

If you want ATI, you should spend the $400 for a X800Pro. Buying last year's second rung card this is asking for disappointment in the next couple years. The technology changes too fast, and games keep wanting more power. The 9800Pro lost 50% of it's performance running DX9 "Wallet Raider" in Anand's review here last year. Hint: many of the games coming out in the next few years will be DX9?

300 bucks would be OK... but still, I just want to have the option to play a game every once in a while... I also have a Xbox. And the primary purpose of the Shuttle PC should be as a Office workhorse.

What really counts for me is the noise level... do the 6800 run very hot? (I know Nvidia chips used to run hot)
 

thedude80

Junior Member
Jul 25, 2004
7
0
0
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
If you really want to play DoomIII then the 9800Pro is OK but any Nvidia card 5900Xt and up should do it better.

A 6800NU is around 260$, i would get that then a 5900XT and then a 9800Pro. That is if your only gonna play DoomIII. The 9800Pro beats the 5900XT (though marginally in some tests) in about 70% of todays games.

-Kevin

Thanks for the hint. I´ll go with a 5900XT then. Good bang for the buck...
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: ZimZum
ATI is currently completely rewriting their OpenGL drivers from the ground up.

I don't think that will help very much; DoomIII was basically tailor-made for nVidia hardware. It will give ATi some gains but I can't see them ever surpassing nVidia in DoomIII, aside from next-gen hardware like the R500.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,211
50
91
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: ZimZum
ATI is currently completely rewriting their OpenGL drivers from the ground up.

I don't think that will help very much; DoomIII was basically tailor-made for nVidia hardware. It will give ATi some gains but I can't see them ever surpassing nVidia in DoomIII, aside from next-gen hardware like the R500.

I don't think ATI actually cares about its OGL performance. If they really did, they would have improved it already. Whether or not they are "about to release" or "working on it", whatever they release will most likely be mediocre gains at best in OGL apps. They are DX focused through and through however. Even though they "chose" not to implement SM3.0, or could not do so because of the failed/scrapped R400 project.
 
Apr 14, 2004
1,599
0
0
Thanks for the hint. I´ll go with a 5900XT then. Good bang for the buck...
I hope you enjoy Half Life 2. I don't think even the term slideshow covers it. Maybe blurry slideshow can suffice.

That 6800LE looks like a reasonable alternative to the 9800 Pro, though at $200 it's more expensive as well. The 9800 Pro is a satisfactory 10x7 card.

I don't think ATI actually cares about its OGL performance. If they really did, they would have improved it already.
They haven't had a reason to. There haven't been many opengl games that are popular until now. Call of Duty ran better on ATI cards. Other than that, what else has been there? Now they don't have much choice.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: ZimZum
ATI is currently completely rewriting their OpenGL drivers from the ground up.

I don't think that will help very much; DoomIII was basically tailor-made for nVidia hardware. It will give ATi some gains but I can't see them ever surpassing nVidia in DoomIII, aside from next-gen hardware like the R500.

I don't think ATI actually cares about its OGL performance. If they really did, they would have improved it already. Whether or not they are "about to release" or "working on it", whatever they release will most likely be mediocre gains at best in OGL apps. They are DX focused through and through however. Even though they "chose" not to implement SM3.0, or could not do so because of the failed/scrapped R400 project.

I still remember when I bought a graphics card about 6 years ago. It was an ATi 3DXpression based on the Rage2 core. At that point in time, ATi didn't even HAVE OpenGL drivers. It was such a joke. I was stuck with a high-powered 3D core that was fully capable of running Quake 1 but I couldn't because ATi refused to program drivers. It seems that they have completely ignored OpenGL from the onset. To me OpenGL is the most important API to program for; it isn't platform-specific. OpenGL is what Macs and Linux PCs use. Look at all the professional 3D rendering apps; they are all OpenGL. I think ATi needs to wake up and change their entire driver philosophy, similar to what they did when they started the Catalyst drivers. I suppose at least we have decent DirectX drivers now.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous
I don't think ATI actually cares about its OGL performance. If they really did, they would have improved it already.
They haven't had a reason to. There haven't been many opengl games that are popular until now. Call of Duty ran better on ATI cards. Other than that, what else has been there? Now they don't have much choice.

Have you not heard of Quake 3 or any of the games based on its engine? How about 3D rendering apps? The last time I checked a GF4 based card will annihilate a 9700 based card in just about every 3D rendering benchmark, sometimes by a factor of 2 or 3.

OpenGL has been around forever and there has always been just as much reason to program for it as there has been for DirectX.
 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,047
18
81
Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous
Thanks for the hint. I´ll go with a 5900XT then. Good bang for the buck...
I hope you enjoy Half Life 2. I don't think even the term slideshow covers it. Maybe blurry slideshow can suffice.

That 6800LE looks like a reasonable alternative to the 9800 Pro, though at $200 it's more expensive as well. The 9800 Pro is a satisfactory 10x7 card.

I don't think ATI actually cares about its OGL performance. If they really did, they would have improved it already.
They haven't had a reason to. There haven't been many opengl games that are popular until now. Call of Duty ran better on ATI cards. Other than that, what else has been there? Now they don't have much choice.

Negative. CoD runs better on Nvidia cards.
 
Apr 14, 2004
1,599
0
0
Have you not heard of Quake 3 or any of the games based on its engine?
All the quake 3 games already get huge fps on a 9700/9800 though.

How about 3D rendering apps? The last time I checked a GF4 based card will annihilate a 9700 based card in just about every 3D rendering benchmark, sometimes by a factor of 2 or 3.
I don't know much about that, suffice to say that this is a nonissue for most gamers.

Negative. CoD runs better on Nvidia cards.
On the 6800s. The 9800 Pro beats the 5950.

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/digest3d/0604/itogi-video-cod-wxp-1600.html
 

gururu

Platinum Member
Jul 16, 2002
2,402
0
0
I seriously see no future for OpenGL. Old diehards like Carmack are going to be fading away (can you say Armadillo?). DX is just making too many leaps and bounds to ignore in terms of features. Plus microsoft is now so intimately involved with game development. I am also inclined to believe that DX drivers run DX games better than OGL drivers run OGL games. I'm not sure, any speculation or fact analyses?
 

thedude80

Junior Member
Jul 25, 2004
7
0
0
Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous
I hope you enjoy Half Life 2. I don't think even the term slideshow covers it. Maybe blurry slideshow can suffice.

Now, performance-wise I´d rather buy a 9800 Pro... it´s more balanced than the 5900.

The only problem is that I can´t find a good 9800 card that has good 2d quality AND a really silent cooling system. This one http://www.hisdigital.com/html/iceq9800_pro.htm unfortunately doesn´t fit in SFFs...
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: gururu
I seriously see no future for OpenGL. Old diehards like Carmack are going to be fading away (can you say Armadillo?). DX is just making too many leaps and bounds to ignore in terms of features. Plus microsoft is now so intimately involved with game development. I am also inclined to believe that DX drivers run DX games better than OGL drivers run OGL games. I'm not sure, any speculation or fact analyses?

From what I understand, any "features" that are possible within DirectX are also possible within OpenGL. As for games running well, I have yet to see a game run more efficiently than Quake3 does under OpenGL. The problem with DirectX is that it only run on Windows computers. Anyone on a Mac or a Linux system will use OpenGL, along with every professional workstation such as Sun/SGI. Basically if Windows disappeared tomorrow there would be no use for DirectX. Why not use an open standard that everyone can use? It works just as well. The only value I can see in DirectX is that it sets the standard for the graphics card makers in terms of what features they need to implement in their next graphics card releases.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,570
10,203
126
Originally posted by: gururu
I seriously see no future for OpenGL. Old diehards like Carmack are going to be fading away (can you say Armadillo?). DX is just making too many leaps and bounds to ignore in terms of features. Plus microsoft is now so intimately involved with game development. I am also inclined to believe that DX drivers run DX games better than OGL drivers run OGL games. I'm not sure, any speculation or fact analyses?

Sadly, there is a lot that we don't know, and perhaps will never know.

For example, here's a few small nuggets to chew on:

First of all, SGI invented "GL", before it became multi-platform, and changed name to "OpenGL".

Second, it's still basically a standard in the professional/workstation-software industry. That is unlikely to change in the near future.

Third, SGI and MS had a tentative joint project to develop a 3D API that would succeed both OpenGL and D3D. It was called "Farenheight" (sp?). Unfortunately, it seems like that project is basically dead at this point, or has submerged, possibly emerging again at some later date under another code-name. (But I think that's unlikely.)

Forth, I don't recall the exact reason, but SGI sold to MS a whole huge bunch of their 3D-graphics patent portfolio.

Fifth, At some later point in time, MS showed up an an ARB meeting (OpenGL review board), apparently threatening some sort of patent-infringement, if they implemented some of the newer advanced features that DirectX was sporting, due to the fact that now MS, not SGI, controlled those key patents.

You see, MS has a very strong vested interest in maintaining their 3D-API near-monopoly, in order to extract "rent" from the devs and their customers. In fact, they tried to strongly pursuade Nintendo and others to adopt their .Net-based game/3D programming SDK, which I would assume also uses a variant of the DirectX/D3D API.

So it's not like OpenGL couldn't also "make leaps and bounds in terms of features", but that because MS controls, via patents sold to them by SGI, the ability to implement those features, then they will attempt to monopolize the 3D API market and prevent OpenGL from adopting those features.

At least, thats the way it was the last time I heard.

I am also inclined to believe that DX drivers run DX games better than OGL drivers run OGL games.
As for that matter, that's entirely up to the driver and applications developers, how well they adhere to the standards, and how much development effort they put into optimizing.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous
Thanks for the hint. I´ll go with a 5900XT then. Good bang for the buck...
I hope you enjoy Half Life 2. I don't think even the term slideshow covers it. Maybe blurry slideshow can suffice.

That 6800LE looks like a reasonable alternative to the 9800 Pro, though at $200 it's more expensive as well. The 9800 Pro is a satisfactory 10x7 card.

I don't think ATI actually cares about its OGL performance. If they really did, they would have improved it already.
They haven't had a reason to. There haven't been many opengl games that are popular until now. Call of Duty ran better on ATI cards. Other than that, what else has been there? Now they don't have much choice.

dont forget that was after emergency crash bug fixes in the drivers and 5 or 6 releases of drivers to surpass nvidia...
 
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