DooM3 Graphics Engine

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
I know that DooM3 topics are taking over the video forum, but I figured it would be worthwhile to have a thread dedicated to *why* D3 is doing what its doing instead of time and time again posting about *what* the game is doing for users. I've run over a hundred benches at this point and have made some notes.

General performance issues- Obviously everyone knows the game likes a lot of stencil fill and boards with high 'zixel' fill rates are dominating in terms of performance. The game also likes boards with a lot of RAM, and there are some issues there.

Ultra settings do nothing on certain boards some of the time at least, ie- you are still using High Quality settings regardless of what the in game options state. I don't have enough parts here to isolate when or why this happens exactly, but it is easily repeatable on my R9800Pro that setting the game to Ultra does absolutely nothing under all of the settings I have tested so far.

Anti-Aliasing settings in game control both anisotropic filtering and AA- forcing either in the control panel will override both settings in game- ie if you force 4x AF in the control panel and no AA you get 4x AF and no AA in game even if you have AA set for 4x.

We need more timedemos. The particular area from very early in the game that Timedemo1 uses isn't painting an accurate picture of overall game performance nor is it showing us the proper differences between the boards. The texture load for the particular area utilized in Timedemo1 is relatively low compared to other areas in the game and while we see the 128MB and 256MB parts performing very close overall for that bench, in game performance on other levels is going to show a significantly larger difference and will likely result in the 128MB parts being unplayable in certain areas, with the 256MB parts playing without a hiccup even though the parts may show identical results in the benches we are reporting here.

Visual quality issues. First off is the texture quality being less then optimal. One of the major issues we are seeing in terms of texture quality is that the gamma for the game needs to be cranked up significantly higher then what we have seen, to the best of my memory, ever. This is washing out a lot of textures that should be looking quite a bit better if the game wasn't so dark.

On the general issue of the game being dark- id didn't include any infinite lighting source in to the game engine likely for performance reasons. The NV2x line of hardware for example, would require an additional rendering pass if they added in an infinite light source which would rectify the too dark problem but obviously lead to performance issues, unless id could write it in such a way that it would be ignored for the 'shadowing pass'(I'm excluding the need for 'duct tape' as that is a gameplay issue).

Aliasing in the game certainly is very easily noticeable. Now, I'm playing on a 22" monitor which is going to make it more obvious- but it is screaming loud on my system and even cranking the res up to 1600x1200 it is still obvious(particularly at the slideshow speeds I get at those settings). MSAA does help out on the edge aliasing, but D3 needs SSAA to handle the aliasing in game properly. With the lighting model they are using combined with the Dot3 everywhere we end up with fairly significant texture type aliasing that can't be dealt with properly by either MSAA or anisotropic filtering(although it may be possible that the NV2X architecture may handle it a bit better then the newer gen parts, will have to post back on that when I get to test it out a bit more with my Ti4200). Because of the type of rendering the aliasing present in the game frequently appears to be edge aliasing- but it isn't and MSAA will do nothing to clear it up. Mixed modes on the nV parts should help here, although a pure SSAA mode would be optimal(not that any of the boards have the power to handle it, but that's what it will take).

Although MSAA doesn't clear up the aliasing entirely, it does help reduce edge aliasing which I have found worth while in this game(again, 22" here so ymmv). The performance hit due to MSAA should be relatively lower in D3 then it is in other titles for slightly older hardware(pre R420 ATi and pre NV30 NV)- particularly newer game engines such as FarCry and the looming HL2 engine. The amount of rendering time that relates to MSAA is lower in D3 then it is in older engines and as such the performance due to AA is lower then in many titles, although there is still an appreciable hit it should be masked on boards with enough RAM to the point where it is fairly negligible for most of the game(although exactly how much RAM that will be will varry heavily depending on where you are in the game). For newer hardware enabling MSAA takes away 'zixel' fill so the performance hit will likely be comparable to normal levels.

At this point I'm thinking NV50/R500 will be ideal in terms of performance to push this game, high res with SSAA and AF(hopefully they will all allow users to have SSAA by that point in time). The engine itself is capable of pushing out slightly older CGI quality visuals in real time if we have the hardware capable of handling the load. I'll likely have some more later, still have to run a couple hundred more benches and gather up some alternative hardware to do more testing.
 

stnicralisk

Golden Member
Jan 18, 2004
1,705
1
0
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
I know that DooM3 topics are taking over the video forum, but I figured it would be worthwhile to have a thread dedicated to *why* D3 is doing what its doing instead of time and time again posting about *what* the game is doing for users. I've run over a hundred benches at this point and have made some notes.

General performance issues- Obviously everyone knows the game likes a lot of stencil fill and boards with high 'zixel' fill rates are dominating in terms of performance. The game also likes boards with a lot of RAM, and there are some issues there.

Ultra settings do nothing on certain boards some of the time at least, ie- you are still using High Quality settings regardless of what the in game options state. I don't have enough parts here to isolate when or why this happens exactly, but it is easily repeatable on my R9800Pro that setting the game to Ultra does absolutely nothing under all of the settings I have tested so far.

Anti-Aliasing settings in game control both anisotropic filtering and AA- forcing either in the control panel will override both settings in game- ie if you force 4x AF in the control panel and no AA you get 4x AF and no AA in game even if you have AA set for 4x.

We need more timedemos. The particular area from very early in the game that Timedemo1 uses isn't painting an accurate picture of overall game performance nor is it showing us the proper differences between the boards. The texture load for the particular area utilized in Timedemo1 is relatively low compared to other areas in the game and while we see the 128MB and 256MB parts performing very close overall for that bench, in game performance on other levels is going to show a significantly larger difference and will likely result in the 128MB parts being unplayable in certain areas, with the 256MB parts playing without a hiccup even though the parts may show identical results in the benches we are reporting here.

Visual quality issues. First off is the texture quality being less then optimal. One of the major issues we are seeing in terms of texture quality is that the gamma for the game needs to be cranked up significantly higher then what we have seen, to the best of my memory, ever. This is washing out a lot of textures that should be looking quite a bit better if the game wasn't so dark.

On the general issue of the game being dark- id didn't include any infinite lighting source in to the game engine likely for performance reasons. The NV2x line of hardware for example, would require an additional rendering pass if they added in an infinite light source which would rectify the too dark problem but obviously lead to performance issues, unless id could write it in such a way that it would be ignored for the 'shadowing pass'(I'm excluding the need for 'duct tape' as that is a gameplay issue).

Aliasing in the game certainly is very easily noticeable. Now, I'm playing on a 22" monitor which is going to make it more obvious- but it is screaming loud on my system and even cranking the res up to 1600x1200 it is still obvious(particularly at the slideshow speeds I get at those settings). MSAA does help out on the edge aliasing, but D3 needs SSAA to handle the aliasing in game properly. With the lighting model they are using combined with the Dot3 everywhere we end up with fairly significant texture type aliasing that can't be dealt with properly by either MSAA or anisotropic filtering(although it may be possible that the NV2X architecture may handle it a bit better then the newer gen parts, will have to post back on that when I get to test it out a bit more with my Ti4200). Because of the type of rendering the aliasing present in the game frequently appears to be edge aliasing- but it isn't and MSAA will do nothing to clear it up. Mixed modes on the nV parts should help here, although a pure SSAA mode would be optimal(not that any of the boards have the power to handle it, but that's what it will take).

Although MSAA doesn't clear up the aliasing entirely, it does help reduce edge aliasing which I have found worth while in this game(again, 22" here so ymmv). The performance hit due to MSAA should be relatively lower in D3 then it is in other titles for slightly older hardware(pre R420 ATi and pre NV30 NV)- particularly newer game engines such as FarCry and the looming HL2 engine. The amount of rendering time that relates to MSAA is lower in D3 then it is in older engines and as such the performance due to AA is lower then in many titles, although there is still an appreciable hit it should be masked on boards with enough RAM to the point where it is fairly negligible for most of the game(although exactly how much RAM that will be will varry heavily depending on where you are in the game). For newer hardware enabling MSAA takes away 'zixel' fill so the performance hit will likely be comparable to normal levels.

At this point I'm thinking NV50/R500 will be ideal in terms of performance to push this game, high res with SSAA and AF(hopefully they will all allow users to have SSAA by that point in time). The engine itself is capable of pushing out slightly older CGI quality visuals in real time if we have the hardware capable of handling the load. I'll likely have some more later, still have to run a couple hundred more benches and gather up some alternative hardware to do more testing.

According to id the AA in their panel does NOT control AF. If you had read the reviews you would see that actually the quality setting controls AF. This could also be a reason why you dont see much difference in Ultra. High gives 8x AF so Ultra probably gives 16x.

As far as turnin up your gamma... the game was meant to be dark... youre supposed to run around conserving your flashlight and getting scared. :/
 

gururu

Platinum Member
Jul 16, 2002
2,402
0
0
what I don't get is why ultra results in such a noticeable performance hit compared to when AF is enabled with medium settings. Medium with AF is far more playable than ultra high. it makes no sense to me, something else must be going on.
 

vshah

Lifer
Sep 20, 2003
19,003
24
81
Originally posted by: gururu
what I don't get is why ultra results in such a noticeable performance hit compared to when AF is enabled with medium settings. Medium with AF is far more playable than ultra high. it makes no sense to me, something else must be going on.

medium compresses texture maps and normal maps. ultra compresses nothing.

-Vivan
 

gururu

Platinum Member
Jul 16, 2002
2,402
0
0
Originally posted by: vshah
Originally posted by: gururu
what I don't get is why ultra results in such a noticeable performance hit compared to when AF is enabled with medium settings. Medium with AF is far more playable than ultra high. it makes no sense to me, something else must be going on.

medium compresses texture maps and normal maps. ultra compresses nothing.

-Vivan


what does using compression accomplish in this case, as no quality differences seem to be observable? Is it simply a tactic to sell cards that have a higher framerate with a touted but useless setting?
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
According to id the AA in their panel does NOT control AF.

That isn't what's happening. The AA in their panel is controlling AF for certain on my setup at least(R9800Pro Cat 4.7). This isn't speculation btw, it's painfully obvious in motion, in screenshots, by performance numbers through FRAPS or using the timedemo.

If you had read the reviews you would see that actually the quality setting controls AF. This could also be a reason why you dont see much difference in Ultra. High gives 8x AF so Ultra probably gives 16x.

From the settings I've tested so far there is no difference in performance at all(down to the first decimal point), there is obviously no visual differences and there is also no difference in the amount of RAM being utilized by the game. None of these things would be happening if there was an actual shift occuring between high quality and ultra. The settings are working for some people, and as I mentioned I can't state why it isn't happening on my system but I can state with certainty that using all of the settings I have tried so far there is no difference between high and ultra quality.

As far as turnin up your gamma... the game was meant to be dark... youre supposed to run around conserving your flashlight and getting scared. :/

I assume you haven't played the game yet........ conserve the flashlight? Cranking the gamma is required to see pretty much anything in the game, even when there is lighting and/or you are using your flashlight(which the batteries don't die in btw).

what does using compression accomplish in this case, as no quality differences seem to be observable?

There are some fairly noticeable artifacts from normal map compression comparing medium to high quality, and there are other artifacts that may be compression related on high quality although I can't get ultra to work at the moment so I'll hold off passing judgement there until I can figure out a setting that allows me to enable it.
 

vshah

Lifer
Sep 20, 2003
19,003
24
81
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
There are some fairly noticeable artifacts from normal map compression comparing medium to high quality, and there are other artifacts that may be compression related on high quality although I can't get ultra to work at the moment so I'll hold off passing judgement there until I can figure out a setting that allows me to enable it.

have you tried playing with the agp aperture? changing it from 128 to 256 (using a 6800gt) decreased the stuttering i experience in ultra mode.

-Vivan
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
Nice post

You say all this but have you beaten the game yet. Maybe when Carmack was referring to the texture size it was on one of the later levels.

Happy Fragging. Gaming

-Kevin
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
76
The difference as said above is compression, ultra compresses NO textures while the lower settings do.

The reason you see no difference between ultra and high is your vidoe card does NOT have the vram required to display it, so it reverts back to high or so while playing. It may say ultra but only 1 card on earth right now can do ultra.

Ultra setting REQUIRES 512MB of video memory, and only 1 card has it as of now. That is a wildcat realism something. Not a gaming card.

So people dont bother setting it to ultra as your brand new 6800 ultra cant handle that much data.
 

CU

Platinum Member
Aug 14, 2000
2,415
51
91
I don't think the game will default back to lower textures if you don't have the video ram. It should use agp texturing then.
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
Where are you getting this information that it reverts back to high. Are you making a guess? Becase no offense or anything but it is wrong.
#1 If it reverted back to high why would we see a performance decrease??

#2 Just because we dont have enough memory doesn't meen that we cant run it, thats why we have AGP aperture, yeah for the most part we haven't needed it these past couple of years, but now that we have Doom III because of the massive overflow of textures without memory it is being put to use. So just because we dont have 512mb of video texture memory doesn't mean we cant run the game.

Actually though according to |H| (yeah i take there reviews cum grano salis (with a grain of salt) but this was a good one) if you have an Athlon 64FX 53 and a 6800U(E if you will) and 2gb of memory they said that they found Ultra settings playable. However still they could not max out AA. So some peoples shiny new 6800U(E);s will be able to.

Yeah 512mb card might run the game faster but hey until then we getting along just fine.

-Kevin
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
Where are you getting this information that it reverts back to high. Are you making a guess? Becase no offense or anything but it is wrong.

I'm not saying what you are seeing, I made it clear that I'm telling you what I'm seeing and I also noted that some people obviously are seeing Ultra settings being used. I don't have enough differing hardware to isolate why this is the case, just pointing out my observations.
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
Ben i wasn't criticizing you i think your post was excellent.... i was critisizing dguy6789.

No worries

-Kevin
 

gururu

Platinum Member
Jul 16, 2002
2,402
0
0
i think there is something happening, even if the game isn't necessarily reverting back to medium or high settings. Also, the performance hits aren't what one would expect if ultra really reveals the 'holy grail'. maybe the drivers have optimizations that kick back some features. Are nvidia users experiencing these things?
 

NYHoustonman

Platinum Member
Dec 8, 2002
2,642
0
0
I assume you haven't played the game yet........ conserve the flashlight? Cranking the gamma is required to see pretty much anything in the game, even when there is lighting and/or you are using your flashlight(which the batteries don't die in btw).

It hasn't been like that for me. I've kept everything gamma/brightness-wise at default, and there are times when it is very dark, but it's pretty obvious to me that this is how it is meant to be played.
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Where are you getting this information that it reverts back to high. Are you making a guess? Becase no offense or anything but it is wrong.

I'm not saying what you are seeing, I made it clear that I'm telling you what I'm seeing and I also noted that some people obviously are seeing Ultra settings being used. I don't have enough differing hardware to isolate why this is the case, just pointing out my observations.

Is it possible that, if it can't find enough memory between the card AND the AGP Aperture (that is, card memory + AGP Aperture << 512MB), it silently drops back to High or Medium settings? I don't have the hardware (or software, yet ) to prove it either, just a thought...
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
Sheesh i wouldn't think so. I think if it ran out of memory FPS would drop off suddenly because of the texture overdraw. Also for all the people playing this game if they are running ultr settings they most likely have a 256mb card, so according to both rules of thumb, they should be set to 256apertures ize. If not the symptoms i said above would most likely happen.

-Kevin
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Sheesh i wouldn't think so. I think if it ran out of memory FPS would drop off suddenly because of the texture overdraw. Also for all the people playing this game if they are running ultr settings they most likely have a 256mb card, so according to both rules of thumb, they should be set to 256apertures ize. If not the symptoms i said above would most likely happen.

-Kevin

If it didn't have enough texture memory (in total), how would it even load the textures to begin with? If you have a 256MB card and set your AGP Aperture to, say, 32MB, programs only have (in theory) 288MB of "video card" RAM. If Doom3 is trying to load, say, 350MB worth of stuff in "Ultra Quality" mode, it just isn't going to fit. I don't know if it's smart enough to try to swap out the textures it's not currently using, or if it might just back off to High or Medium quality in these cases. The OP is saying he sees *no* difference between Ultra and High (in quality or performance), implying that it's not really running in Ultra Quality mode.
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
Well this all depends on how DoomIII load textures. Does it load in real time or does it load everything at the beginning of a level. If it is realtime what i described might happen if it is not it MIGHT do what you suggested or simply give an error message and close out.

I would think they probably could... but why would you try unless you needed a good slideshow.

-Kevin
 

gururu

Platinum Member
Jul 16, 2002
2,402
0
0
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Well this all depends on how DoomIII load textures. Does it load in real time or does it load everything at the beginning of a level. If it is realtime what i described might happen if it is not it MIGHT do what you suggested or simply give an error message and close out.

I would think they probably could... but why would you try unless you needed a good slideshow.

-Kevin

it takes longer to load a level under Ultra than it does to load under medium (almost twice as long)
 

stnicralisk

Golden Member
Jan 18, 2004
1,705
1
0
Originally posted by: gururu
what I don't get is why ultra results in such a noticeable performance hit compared to when AF is enabled with medium settings. Medium with AF is far more playable than ultra high. it makes no sense to me, something else must be going on.

On Ultra nothing is compressed.
 

stnicralisk

Golden Member
Jan 18, 2004
1,705
1
0
Post screenshots of AA on low settings and no AA on low settings. I dont have the game but from every review they said AF was controlled by quality settings. Hook us up with some screenshots so we can see what it is you are referring to. Maybe it is a bug?
 

vss1980

Platinum Member
Feb 29, 2000
2,944
0
76
I would actually have to say that the lighting engine has some fundamental flaws which help to make the game too dark.

For example, you can be standing in corridors which are mainly constructed of metal which one would have thought is relatively shiny and have the flashlight on yet there is no impact to the general light in the environment. Now realisticly speaking, when you walk in to a room with a torch/flashlight on there is a noticable difference in even large rooms - you know, the old shining the torch on the ceiling trick and everything in the room lighting up a little.

Also, in the bathrooms in Doom3, shine the torch into the mirror and NO light bounces back off onto the walls......

Realisticly speaking, the flashlight just isn't good enough and doesn't do the job in the game that would happen in real life, and the shame of it is that the game engine more than likely does possess the ability to do this.

Yeah, I know, other games like half-life that have a flashlight have the same problem, however that is half-life and that was several years ago now (wow, 5-6 years when you think about it) so I was expecting better. Only in a few places do flickering or pulsating lights in Doom3 cause realistic lighting of the area local to them.
 

matman326

Junior Member
Aug 2, 2004
13
0
0
For example, you can be standing in corridors which are mainly constructed of metal which one would have thought is relatively shiny and have the flashlight on yet there is no impact to the general light in the environment. Now realisticly speaking, when you walk in to a room with a torch/flashlight on there is a noticable difference in even large rooms - you know, the old shining the torch on the ceiling trick and everything in the room lighting up a little.

yes realistically speaking a flashlight does lighten up the room a bit more, realistically you won't find demons from Hell hiding in the dark waiting to skin you alive.

Also, in the bathrooms in Doom3, shine the torch into the mirror and NO light bounces back off onto the walls......

Ok yes the game engine might be able to handle this but I really doubt any graphics cards could handle the added stress, even the almighty 6800U.

Just my two cents.....



edited for spelling errors
 
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