Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: ntdz
I can't believe they're charging the Duke players without any DNA evidence. How can you charge them with rape with no DNA evidence whatsoever? To me, the fact there is no DNA evidence exonerates them.
You don't need DNA evidence for rape because they could have used a condom. I mean really would you have unprotected sex with some whore? So more than likly *if*, and that's a big if, they did rape her they did use a condom. So all we have to go with is her credibility and the boys.
Obviously the cops and DA feel she is credible or they would'nt have conveined a grand jury in the first place. Now lets see what happens when a real jury is assembled.
The problem is, condoms almost always leave behind traces of latex, lubricants, or spermicides. If she really were raped for 30 minutes by 3 individuals as she claimed, and if they had used condoms, then condom trace evidence should have been found.Originally posted by: Zebo
You don't need DNA evidence for rape because they could have used a condom.
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Getting into Duke definitely requires effort but many students are prep school . . . and that's more money than aptitude.
Duke has a terrible problem with grade inflation. They've tweaked at it in the past but in truth it's pretty easy to get As . . . particularly when a full load is 4 classes. I don't know about lax but bball players love Sociology.
I think evry school does this. My dad was in the carlson school of business at the University of MN. One of the top business school in the nation and was top of an accounting class with 30% test scores. He couldnt believe it but got an A+ in the class which means the avg could very well have been in the teens.
He went back to school when I did and got his accounting degree, just to say he did.
ESPN report: Is Duke making the grade?
'Outside the Lines' segment examines school's academic record among its athletes
February 27, 2002
By BRYAN STRICKLAND
Herald Sun
---
The report doesn't accuse Duke of any wrongdoing, but it suggests that Duke athletes get the chance to load up on easy classes with a preferential registration system.
It says that Duke basketball players gravitate toward sociology, which is considered by some to be one of the easier majors at the school, and it questions the difficulty of the summer-school and independent-study courses that have helped juniors Jason Williams and Carlos Boozer close in on graduating in three years.
---
The ESPN report quotes Stuart Rojstaczer, an environmental-sciences professor at Duke, as saying that athletes get 'first dibs' on registering for easier classes.
---
Boozer and Williams both took two independent-study classes during Duke's second summer session. The show states that during half of the six-week session, Boozer was out of town practicing and playing with the U.S. team competing in the World Championship for Young Men.
---
'This idea that somehow summer school is by its nature easier than the rest of the year is vastly oversimplified,' Kennedy said. 'There are things about it that make it more conducive to students doing well - there's nothing else going on, there's nothing else to do. You're not playing or practicing, so your time is all your own.
'So the context of summer school might make it more conducive to doing good work, but I don't believe the courses themselves are easier.'
Did you go to NC School of Science and Math? My college roommate graduated from there in 1995.Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Oh from my graduating class 64 UNC, mid50s NC State, and 20 Duke. Nothing could be finer than to be at Carolina!
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Getting into Duke definitely requires effort but many students are prep school . . . and that's more money than aptitude.
Duke has a terrible problem with grade inflation. They've tweaked at it in the past but in truth it's pretty easy to get As . . . particularly when a full load is 4 classes. I don't know about lax but bball players love Sociology.
I think evry school does this. My dad was in the carlson school of business at the University of MN. One of the top business school in the nation and was top of an accounting class with 30% test scores. He couldnt believe it but got an A+ in the class which means the avg could very well have been in the teens.
He went back to school when I did and got his accounting degree, just to say he did.
Every school does it to an extent but Duke is ridiculous. At least they were in the 90s. My high school shared a physics prof with Duke back in the early 90s. I stopped by his office (yes that means I was going to high school in Durham) one day and perused the tests posted on his door . . . 58 = A. Fortunately, he graded like that for my Astrophysics class too.
Here ya go (selective quoting so read it yourself it you want to see the Duke PR responses)
ESPN report: Is Duke making the grade?
'Outside the Lines' segment examines school's academic record among its athletes
February 27, 2002
By BRYAN STRICKLAND
Herald Sun
---
The report doesn't accuse Duke of any wrongdoing, but it suggests that Duke athletes get the chance to load up on easy classes with a preferential registration system.
It says that Duke basketball players gravitate toward sociology, which is considered by some to be one of the easier majors at the school, and it questions the difficulty of the summer-school and independent-study courses that have helped juniors Jason Williams and Carlos Boozer close in on graduating in three years.
---
The ESPN report quotes Stuart Rojstaczer, an environmental-sciences professor at Duke, as saying that athletes get 'first dibs' on registering for easier classes.
---
Boozer and Williams both took two independent-study classes during Duke's second summer session. The show states that during half of the six-week session, Boozer was out of town practicing and playing with the U.S. team competing in the World Championship for Young Men.
---
'This idea that somehow summer school is by its nature easier than the rest of the year is vastly oversimplified,' Kennedy said. 'There are things about it that make it more conducive to students doing well - there's nothing else going on, there's nothing else to do. You're not playing or practicing, so your time is all your own.
'So the context of summer school might make it more conducive to doing good work, but I don't believe the courses themselves are easier.'
Oh from my graduating class 64 UNC, mid50s NC State, and 20 Duke. Nothing could be finer than to be at Carolina!
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: ntdz
I can't believe they're charging the Duke players without any DNA evidence. How can you charge them with rape with no DNA evidence whatsoever? To me, the fact there is no DNA evidence exonerates them.
You don't need DNA evidence for rape because they could have used a condom. I mean really would you have unprotected sex with some whore? So more than likly *if*, and that's a big if, they did rape her they did use a condom. So all we have to go with is her credibility and the boys.
Obviously the cops and DA feel she is credible or they would'nt have conveined a grand jury in the first place. Now lets see what happens when a real jury is assembled.
Originally posted by: kylef
Did you go to NC School of Science and Math? My college roommate graduated from there in 1995.Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Oh from my graduating class 64 UNC, mid50s NC State, and 20 Duke. Nothing could be finer than to be at Carolina!
Odd that your astrophysics prof graded like that, because 90% of the physics department flat-out refused to curve up. What was the prof's name?
Helllllooooo . . . sociology. Granted, it's possible (if not likely) this disparity exists at a lot of schools.In his new book, ?Grade Inflation: A Crisis in College Education,? Johnson, a former Duke professor, explains what he found in an analysis of student grades given in the 1998-1999 academic year at Duke. In short, instructors in natural sciences grade tougher than those in the humanities, and students gravitate toward disciplines and courses known for easier grades.
?The theme is that disparities in grading influence many educational decisions,? said Johnson.
Originally posted by: owensdj
If it turns out she lied about the rape and that there really wasn't enough evidence for the DA to charge the students, can the students bring a civil lawsuit against the DA? They've lost their lacrosse season, had to post a $400,000 bail, been suspended from school, and had their reputations tarnished. All of that has to be worth something.
Originally posted by: piasabird
If the victim is found intoxicated and is disoriented, how can she provide usable evidence? She could have been drugged with a date rape drug.
This will be one ugly trial. I say bring in all of her prior clients as witnesses.
She may have been using the stripping as a front for prostitution. Also the people she works for may have had prior knowledge and they may not want the court digging up all their records and interviewing all their clients.
Originally posted by: owensdj
If it turns out she lied about the rape and that there really wasn't enough evidence for the DA to charge the students, can the students bring a civil lawsuit against the DA? They've lost their lacrosse season, had to post a $400,000 bail, been suspended from school, and had their reputations tarnished. All of that has to be worth something.
Originally posted by: MrsBugi
Paid their $400,000 bond and are subsequently free.
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: owensdj
If it turns out she lied about the rape and that there really wasn't enough evidence for the DA to charge the students, can the students bring a civil lawsuit against the DA? They've lost their lacrosse season, had to post a $400,000 bail, been suspended from school, and had their reputations tarnished. All of that has to be worth something.
Negative. FWIW, the grand jury found there was enough evidence for the case to proceed to trial. The only realistic way the DA could face any liability would be if he had maliciously prosecuted these guys when he knew or should have known they were innocent.
The reality is that many rape cases, particularly date-rape cases, are he-said, she-said affairs. Where there is a willing, persuasive victim, these cases are often taken to trial. The fact that the defendant is acquitted doesn't mean that he is innocent, and it would, IMO, be absurd to hold prosecutors liable simply because they have the balls to take tough cases to trial (just to be clear, none of my comments are specific to this case).
Originally posted by: ExpertNovice
Can you cite cases where the rape victim is tested for DNA within hours and before cleaning up and no DNA evidence is found and no traces of latex are found.
Can you cite cases where the arrival, "dancing", and departure are photographed.
Can you cite cases where five weeks after the rape victim was unable to identify her attackers (they took DNA from all of the Lacrosse team except one) she could now clearly identify them?
I can't exactly research this at the moment but a talking head stated that a website listed the names of the lacrosse team members with the richest parents. Five weeks after the no-DNA rape, plenty of time to complete such research, she could suddenly identify her rapists.
Can you cite a case where one of the rich kids supposedly picked up by a taxi driver (time stamp on the log), driven to an ATM (time stamp), to a fast food place (probably no time stamped receipt), and finally to a dorm (time stamp from swiping his card) all during the alleged rape. I mean to tell you size DOES matter if this information is true!
Yep, the information (we will have to see if the information is factual) about this case is becoming stronger and stronger for the lacrosse team. Still, the woman will profit. Jesse Jackson will profit. The lacross team will get screwed.
Now, if all the facts that are being reported in support of the lacross team turn out to be bogus or doctored then I say use them for lab experiments.
People with lots of money who can bring out the troops to paint light on what kind of person the hooker really was and this goes to motive and character. Good for them. It's sad in a way the average american can't and instead relies on public defense or low ball defense and would most likly hang in such a situation with the relativly unlimted budget of prosecution against them. There was a special on PBS called Presumed Guilty which highlighted this dual justice tract that exists.I've heard some remarkably misogynistic and racist commentary with regard to this case
Originally posted by: Zebo
People with lots of money who can bring out the troops to paint light on what kind of person the hooker really was and this goes to motive and character. Good for them. It's sad in a way the average american can't and instead relies on public defense or low ball defense and would most likly hang in such a situation with the relativly unlimted budget of prosecution against them. There was a special on PBS called Presumed Guilty which highlighted this dual justice tract that exists.I've heard some remarkably misogynistic and racist commentary with regard to this case
I don't understand that. If someone victimized me in such a brutal way I would'nt stop the press (you can't let some crazy run the streets not to mention justice factor). This business about scared or embarresed to testify and judges even allowing it in some cases is also a threat to our Bill of Rights.Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: Zebo
People with lots of money who can bring out the troops to paint light on what kind of person the hooker really was and this goes to motive and character. Good for them. It's sad in a way the average american can't and instead relies on public defense or low ball defense and would most likly hang in such a situation with the relativly unlimted budget of prosecution against them. There was a special on PBS called Presumed Guilty which highlighted this dual justice tract that exists.I've heard some remarkably misogynistic and racist commentary with regard to this case
There's definitely truth in what you're saying. I must say, though, I regard it as unfortunate that zealous defense of rape cases almost invariably involves hammering the accuser (whether she deserves it or not), because it deters other women from reporting rapes, particularly acquaintance rapes.
Originally posted by: Zebo
I don't understand that. If someone victimized me in such a brutal way I would'nt stop the press. This business about scared or embarresed to testify and judges even allowing it in some cases is also a threat to our Bill of Rights.Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: Zebo
People with lots of money who can bring out the troops to paint light on what kind of person the hooker really was and this goes to motive and character. Good for them. It's sad in a way the average american can't and instead relies on public defense or low ball defense and would most likly hang in such a situation with the relativly unlimted budget of prosecution against them. There was a special on PBS called Presumed Guilty which highlighted this dual justice tract that exists.I've heard some remarkably misogynistic and racist commentary with regard to this case
There's definitely truth in what you're saying. I must say, though, I regard it as unfortunate that zealous defense of rape cases almost invariably involves hammering the accuser (whether she deserves it or not), because it deters other women from reporting rapes, particularly acquaintance rapes.
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: Zebo
I don't understand that. If someone victimized me in such a brutal way I would'nt stop the press. This business about scared or embarresed to testify and judges even allowing it in some cases is also a threat to our Bill of Rights.Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: Zebo
People with lots of money who can bring out the troops to paint light on what kind of person the hooker really was and this goes to motive and character. Good for them. It's sad in a way the average american can't and instead relies on public defense or low ball defense and would most likly hang in such a situation with the relativly unlimted budget of prosecution against them. There was a special on PBS called Presumed Guilty which highlighted this dual justice tract that exists.I've heard some remarkably misogynistic and racist commentary with regard to this case
There's definitely truth in what you're saying. I must say, though, I regard it as unfortunate that zealous defense of rape cases almost invariably involves hammering the accuser (whether she deserves it or not), because it deters other women from reporting rapes, particularly acquaintance rapes.
Once you are accused of a sex offense you lose your rights.. at least the right to know anything about the accusers past LIKE... whether she has ever brought false charges against anyone else .... and you can't bring their sex life into the court room either..
BUT.. the accuser can bring your sexual history into the court room and anything else they want...
Some people will think I am being insensitive.. but in a case of "she said/he said" with no physical evidence and no DNA ... why is the case still stacked against the defendant?
Actually she made the ID TWO weeks or so after the alleged assault. Further, she identified TWO with 100% certainty and 90% certainty on the 3rd. But it is an interesting question as to why she wasn't asked to ID the perps within days of the attack.Can you cite cases where five weeks after the rape victim was unable to identify her attackers (they took DNA from all of the Lacrosse team except one) she could now clearly identify them?
As noted above, your timeline is off, so unless this website was posted several weeks ago it has no bearing on this case. In all likelihood, the PD/DA took the woman's statements about the names (which were fake) and physical descriptions to "profile" the perps. Contrary, to popular belief "all white people do NOT look alike." Seligman and Finnerty are very different from one another.I can't exactly research this at the moment but a talking head stated that a website listed the names of the lacrosse team members with the richest parents. Five weeks after the no-DNA rape, plenty of time to complete such research, she could suddenly identify her rapists.
Seligman's alibi is interesting but NOT exculpatory. It would certainly be "odd" behavior after an attack . . . unless the person is a total sociopath. But from a time perspective it makes it "difficult" for Seligman to be a perp but not impossible.Can you cite a case where one of the rich kids supposedly picked up by a taxi driver (time stamp on the log), driven to an ATM (time stamp), to a fast food place (probably no time stamped receipt), and finally to a dorm (time stamp from swiping his card) all during the alleged rape. I mean to tell you size DOES matter if this information is true!
I'm not sure where your info is coming from but nothing as changed substantially with regards to the TEAM. It's never been a point of contention as to whether most of the team was innocent. The question was whether a few team members (or others at the party that were not on the team) committed a crime. The only TEAM offense was having this "party" in the first place . . . on that one . . . their guilt is self-evident.Yep, the information (we will have to see if the information is factual) about this case is becoming stronger and stronger for the lacrosse team. Still, the woman will profit. Jesse Jackson will profit. The lacross team will get screwed.
As I stated that is because in most rape cases either condoms were used (no traces of latex found) or the victim did not report the crime for more than 24 hours and had cleaned up prior to the examination. Neither of those happened in this case. This is a case of statistics not being accuratly used.Originally posted by: DonVito
There is no DNA evidence in the overwhelming majority of rape cases (the number I've seen recently is 85%).
That is why we are talking about this case. Just as your 85% "rule" was relevant so was my question.Can you cite cases where the arrival, "dancing", and departure are photographed.
No, obviously this is unusual. Your questions which are specific to the facts of this case (like this one) are really irrelevant to other cases, and obviously there are few that match.
Wow, too drunk to remember the person but five weeks later they could remember. Considering that she saw pictures of all the team members and potentially saw a list of richest team members, yes, I would say it weakens the persuasiveness of her testimony.Can you cite cases where five weeks after the rape victim was unable to identify her attackers (they took DNA from all of the Lacrosse team except one) she could now clearly identify them?
I have seen cases like that, yes, where the accuser was either voluntarily or involuntarily intoxicated at the time of the attack (actually I prosecuted such a case when I was in the Air Force). Obviously it weakens the persuasiveness of her testimony.
Acquitted from the criminal trial but probably not from a civil case where the rules of evidence change dramatically. I do agree, and stated so although it was not quoted, that the taxi driver could falsify his testimony. If, however, it matches up logs that appear not to have been tampered with, plus an ATM transaction, plus dorm entry (if a log is kept) that would shore up his testimony.Can you cite a case where one of the rich kids supposedly picked up by a taxi driver (time stamp on the log), driven to an ATM (time stamp), to a fast food place (probably no time stamped receipt), and finally to a dorm (time stamp from swiping his card) all during the alleged rape. I mean to tell you size DOES matter if this information is true!
As I stated above, you're asking about facts so specific to this case that it's obvious I haven't seen something identical. If what you're saying is true (I have heard the same thing, but not from an unbiased source), the relevant defendant will almost certainly be acquitted.
Yep, the information (we will have to see if the information is factual) about this case is becoming stronger and stronger for the lacrosse team. Still, the woman will profit. Jesse Jackson will profit. The lacross team will get screwed.
Now, if all the facts that are being reported in support of the lacross team turn out to be bogus or doctored then I say use them for lab experiments.
As you are, I don't know what happened. Probably not in this forum, but it is possible that she was raped, cleaned up, went to the "party", then claimed she was raped at the party. Heck, she may even believe it.I have no idea if these guys are guilty or not, and I agree the case sounds a little dubious. I am skeptical, though, of the agendas of many of the people who are making the accuser out to be a villain here - I've heard some remarkably misogynistic and racist commentary with regard to this case (I am not referring to you).