Duke lacrosse case

[tommywishbone]

Originally posted by: ExpertNovice

Originally posted by: piasabird
If the victim is found intoxicated and is disoriented, how can she provide usable evidence? She could have been drugged with a date rape drug.


She was photographed leaving the "party" within two hours of arriving. Date rape drugs don't wear off that fast and I doubt they take effect that fast..."

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If the "date rape" drug in question was GHB aka Gammahydroxybutyrate, I can assure you that the effects can take place within 30-60 seconds of consumpsion, depending on quanity, purity of the GHB, whether power or liquid form, bodyweight of the person taking the drug, and the level of alcohol the person has consumed prior to ingesting the GHB. The effects can also "wear-off" completely within 30-45 minutes. Again, depending on several factors.

Keep in mind that GHB was sold OTC until 1992, so it's effects, contraindications, etc., are well known.

If the drug in question was Rohypnol aka "roofies", I'll plead ignorance (generally a quickly accepted plea in my case).

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Detection times for Rohypnol are up to 24hrs blood and 72hrs urine

GHB 2-6 hours blood, 8-12hrs urine

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

ExpertNovice (not quoting because it would get to be a huge mess):

I think the media and laypeople are getting awfully carried away about the absence of DNA or latex residue. It's not as though (if we temporarily assume this accuser was raped) the rapists couldn't have pulled out, failed to ejaculate, or used non-latex condoms. I can't say I've ever worked on a case in which latex residue was found in a rape kit, but I've definitely worked on cases in which rape kits found no DNA nor latex residue.

I have actually prosecuted (well, overseen the prosecution of) a case in which a rape accuser was too drunk even to know she had been raped, then remembered it months later. It turned out she was right that the guy had had sex with her, but he was acquitted of rape (though I still feel he was guilty). Awful mess of a case.

I regard the conjecture about a website containing a list of the wealthiest Duke lacrosse players fanciful, but agree it would be relevant IF she had seen it, and IF she accused some of the wealthier members on the team. No idea if there's any evidence of either of these things, though, and frankly I find it implausible that such a site ever existed. Keep in mind, they hired her - it's not like she pushed her services on them in order to claim rape by a member of the team.

I don't agree, _at_all_, that these guys are being presumed guilty. If anything the reportage seems to be aggressively oriented toward proving that she's lying. That does not, of course, mean that the suspects are not being put through a dreadful, horribly unfair process if they are in fact innocent. It's a crappy deal all around. If they didn't do this, I have total sympathy with them, because this is a terrible thing to have to go through.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I stand corrected.

Seligman is looking strong. I don't understand why they wouldn't have told the DA this WEEKS AGo.

cnnnnn
Seligman is in a cab at 12:18 . . . with a buddy. Somebody owes him an apology . . . particularly his lawyer since he basically paid someone to allow the DA to get this far.

 

[kylef]

Originally posted by: DonVito
I think the media and laypeople are getting awfully carried away about the absence of DNA or latex residue. It's not as though (if we temporarily assume this accuser was raped) the rapists couldn't have pulled out, failed to ejaculate, or used non-latex condoms. I can't say I've ever worked on a case in which latex residue was found in a rape kit, but I've definitely worked on cases in which rape kits found no DNA nor latex residue.

Let me ask you something. In cases where DNA was not found by the rape kits, did you then proceed to issue court orders for DNA tests anyway? From a wide range of suspects, even before witness identification had been performed? Doing so would seem illogical to me. It looks like a fishing expedition.

BTW, according to what I've read, condom trace evidence is not limited to latex and has improved dramatically since it was introduced in the 1990s. Supposedly standard tests today look for lubricants, spermicides, and even pesticides which are present in nearly all widely-available condoms (yes, even latex-free condoms). I just don't know whether any of these tests were performed in this case. Assuming the samples haven't been destroyed, the defense would presumably have access to them for testing at trial.

I don't agree, _at_all_, that these guys are being presumed guilty. If anything the reportage seems to be aggressively oriented toward proving that she's lying.

I'd agree that in the past week, the tone of reporting has changed dramatically after investigative reporters have found several inconsistencies with the stripper's affadavit. Now you're starting to see a backlash because there is no hard evidence that is publicly available.

By contrast, three weeks ago the reporting was exactly the opposite. The DA held around 70 press conferences until he quit holding them last Friday, and the press more or less just reported whatever the DA had to say. He made the claim that the DNA tests would "implicate several team members", and the media ate it up as absolute truth.

Now that it's not so clear, the media are being much more skeptical. Which IMO is a good thing.

 

[kylef]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Seligman is looking strong. I don't understand why they wouldn't have told the DA this WEEKS AGo.

cnnnnn
Seligman is in a cab at 12:18 . . . with a buddy. Somebody owes him an apology . . . particularly his lawyer since he basically paid someone to allow the DA to get this far.

And remember, this is one of the "100%" victim identifications, according to Nifong. If this one turns out to be obviously wrong, expect the others to be nearly useless at trial.

Credibility is everything when it boils down to witness/victim testimony.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: kylef

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Seligman is looking strong. I don't understand why they wouldn't have told the DA this WEEKS AGo.

cnnnnn
Seligman is in a cab at 12:18 . . . with a buddy. Somebody owes him an apology . . . particularly his lawyer since he basically paid someone to allow the DA to get this far.

And remember, this is one of the "100%" victim identifications, according to Nifong. If this one turns out to be obviously wrong, expect the others to be nearly useless at trial.

Credibility is everything when it boils down to witness/victim testimony.

Eh . . . any expert will tell you that visual ID looks great in court but the "science" pretty much tells us that it isn't very reliable (pro or con). Now the defense will certainly say she has a credibility problem if Seligman's alibi holds up to closer inspection but that doesn't mean she's wrong with the others. Again, there just isn't enough information to go on at this point. But having said that . . . this woman brought a believable account (and physical evidence by a nurse) to the PD/DA and identified the alleged perps. I'm not sure how Nifong could have possibly avoided charging SOMEONE. I just don't understand how Seligman's lawyer allowed it to get to this point . . . again, assuming the alibi holds up.

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: tommywishbone

Originally posted by: ExpertNovice

Originally posted by: piasabird
If the victim is found intoxicated and is disoriented, how can she provide usable evidence? She could have been drugged with a date rape drug.


She was photographed leaving the "party" within two hours of arriving. Date rape drugs don't wear off that fast and I doubt they take effect that fast..."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the "date rape" drug in question was GHB aka Gammahydroxybutyrate, I can assure you that the effects can take place within 30-60 seconds of consumpsion, depending on quanity, purity of the GHB, whether power or liquid form, bodyweight of the person taking the drug, and the level of alcohol the person has consumed prior to ingesting the GHB. The effects can also "wear-off" completely within 30-45 minutes. Again, depending on several factors.

Keep in mind that GHB was sold OTC until 1992, so it's effects, contraindications, etc., are well known.

If the drug in question was Rohypnol aka "roofies", I'll plead ignorance (generally a quickly accepted plea in my case).

Thanks for the information. I didn't know the drug was that fast acting. I just did a very cursory check of the drug. How can anyone smart enough to graduate from 6th grade be stupid enough (or maybe just immoral enough) to give an unregulated dosage of a depressant to someone who has been drinking.

I guess rape and murder are really just sexual preferences and late ....

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDocActually she made the ID TWO weeks or so after the alleged assault. Further, she identified TWO with 100% certainty and 90% certainty on the 3rd. But it is an interesting question as to why she wasn't asked to ID the perps within days of the attack.

Thanks, I have not heard that timeline but knew it would be learned at some point.

As noted above, your timeline is off, so unless this website was posted several weeks ago it has no bearing on this case. In all likelihood, the PD/DA took the woman's statements about the names (which were fake) and physical descriptions to "profile" the perps. Contrary, to popular belief "all white people do NOT look alike." Seligman and Finnerty are very different from one another.

hehe I agree. If the information for the website was not gathered before she identified her alleged attackers then there is no basis. I do understand that she identified her attackers from photographs of the players rather than a line up with a mix of players and non-players. Not a very smart thing to do from my perspective but it might be routine.

The media account of his alibi (and timeline of the attack) certainly favors him but it just seems odd that this evidence would have been presented to the DA and they still indict the kid. If the DA was aware of this information then he must be packing some serious cheddar.

The DA is up for reelection. Perhaps appearing to be tough in this high profile case will help them. Only they know their motives. Hopefully the motives are good.

I wonder if Bennett is behind the pix being released? I'm not a lawyer but seems like a decent lawyer would have put them out (including time stamps) weeks ago. They aren't necessarily exculpatory but they would have provided a very public accounting of how the woman was bruised when she arrived, was out of sight for no more than 20 minutes, and appeared somewhat at ease . . . albeit under the influence . . . afterwards.

I just don't get this whole thing. If I (or my team) was accused of rape, I would have given a minute by minute account of EVERYTHING that woman did, we did, and where it happened.

Player to PD/DA: Don't believe . . . HERE I've got pictures!

More good points. On the point of you giving an account if you, or your team, was accused I would think your lawyer would probably tell you to shut up.

As Coulter said, both parties (ignoring that one party or the other is lieing) could have avoided the issue by behaving in a more appropriate manner. Although, both parties (again ignoring...) normally would not think others capable of doing what they are being accused of.

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: DonVito
ExpertNovice (not quoting because it would get to be a huge mess):

Yes it would!

Were those tests done within hours of the rape? Also, I didn't think that semen was the only DNA being checked for. Hairs, sweat, etc. are also looked at, right? You appear to have much more experience with rape than I do. (Those with no sense of humor read that as "rape cases.")


As for the being too drunk to know they had been raped then it might come down to was it rape or consensual sex. If they couldn't remember the rape they might not have remembered it was consensual. (I'm discounting the use of date rape drugs which, from an earlier post, indicate that the rape must occur at the site where the drug is administered, or other anesthetics (Dentists, Doctors, etc.)

As for the website. I still have not researched that further. Another poster says it was created after the woman identified the team members. Again, I'm posting additional information as I hear about it.

It is very interesting to get information piecemeal but in high profile cases I do like to follow along. Strange that I abhor "reality" based shows. I've have, on a rare occasion, ordered tapes of the trial highlights, such as the Rodney King case. Still edited but MUCH better information than we saw in the United States media.

I don't agree, _at_all_, that these guys are being presumed guilty. If anything the reportage seems to be aggressively oriented toward proving that she's lying. That does not, of course, mean that the suspects are not being put through a dreadful, horribly unfair process if they are in fact innocent. It's a crappy deal all around. If they didn't do this, I have total sympathy with them, because this is a terrible thing to have to go through.

I agree with you almost completely. If Jesse Jackson was not there plastering his face and comments in the media I would agree with you even more. Unfortunately it is a fact, imo, (do you like that oxymoron? that in this country some who are accused of sexual crimes are treated as if they are guilty even if actually proven innocent. Others, are celebrated. Oh well.

Thanks for informing me about some of the realities that you have witnessed. The past few posts and comments have reminded me how much fun it was to talk with law students when I was in college. It was always argue civilly or if passions ran high have a drink afterwards.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

More good points. On the point of you giving an account if you, or your team, was accused I would think your lawyer would probably tell you to shut up.

As Coulter said, both parties (ignoring that one party or the other is lieing) could have avoided the issue by behaving in a more appropriate manner. Although, both parties (again ignoring...) normally would not think others capable of doing what they are being accused of.

You were doing pretty well until you mentioned Coulter (I assume Ann). While even a stopped clock is right twice a day . . . I wouldn't trust Coulter to spell her name.

You are almost right about when to talk and when not to talk. In a typical case, where YOU are a suspect it's better to say less NOT more . . . less if you are innocent . . . nothing if you are guilty. But in this case, any person that was concerned solely with their own well-being OR knew categorically that nothing close to this woman's account took place . . . should sing like a bird.

Let's assume Seligman is innocent, but has no idea what happened after he left. He KNOWS he's innocent. He KNOWS there's a record of his phone calls, taxi ride, the stop over at Cookout, and entering his dorm. If you've got bank (which I assume he does) you tell EVERYTHING to your lawyer. He then goes to the DA and lays it out. I guarantee you Seligman would not be indicted, mug shot plastered over all the media, and suspended from school.

Obviously, I don't anything more than anyone else but my guess is he is innocent . . . but somebody told him something about what happened OR the DA requested an extensive interview and Seligman/lawyer were wary of implicating him in other activities (underaged drinking, possession, who knows). I don't know about you but it's pretty easy to do that risk analysis. A woman has accused 3 white guys of rape and made IDs based on who she SAW at that house. If I'm at that house . . . and I'm white . . . and on the lax team . . . and she saw me . . . I'm talking. Well, actually my lawyer is going to deal for me and then I'm talking . . . straight from the script provided by my well-compensated representation.

the other clear-heeled woman talks
Now it's getting interesting . . . details details details

 

[spacejamz]

2nd dancer at the party now says she believes the accuser is correct. Previously, she wasn't sure. Looks like her mind was changed after seeking advice from a PR firm on how to spin this situation to her advantage.

Text

from the article:

Also Thursday, 5W Public Relations, a New York firm that specializes in "crisis communication," distributed an e-mail signed "The 2nd Dancer," and Roberts confirmed she sent it after learning the AP knew her identity.

"I've found myself in the center of one of the biggest stories in the country," she wrote. "I'm worried about letting this opportunity pass me by without making the best of it and was wondering if you had any advice as to how to spin this to my advantage."

Ronn Torossian, 5W's president, said he replied, but got no response.

"If this person is indeed who they say they are, I would be happy to speak with her," said Torossian, whose firm has represented the likes of Sean "Diddy" Combs, Ice Cube and Lil' Kim.

Roberts, like the accuser a divorced single mother who is black, took umbrage at the notion that she should not try to make something out of her experience. She's worried that once her name and criminal record are public, no one will want to hire her.

"Why shouldn't I profit from it?" she asked. "I didn't ask to be in this position ... I would like to feed my daughter."

 

[Zebo]

Roberts, 31, was arrested on March 22 -- eight days after the party -- on a probation violation from a 2001 conviction for embezzling $25,000 from a photofinishing company in Durham where she was a payroll specialist, according to documents obtained by the AP.

How could a juror take anything these two say as truth? These two sound like a couple total losers and if if they were rapped DA is going to have a difficult time proving it.

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Roberts, 31, was arrested on March 22 -- eight days after the party -- on a probation violation from a 2001 conviction for embezzling $25,000 from a photofinishing company in Durham where she was a payroll specialist, according to documents obtained by the AP.

How could a juror take anything these two say as truth? These two sound like a couple total losers and if if they were rapped DA is going to have a difficult time proving it.

A better, imo, link to the same story

I agree and I also agree that at this point the students have my sympathy.

However, in defense of the second accuser she may not have known what happened. At first I wondered how she could claim that the accuser went in "sober" and came out "incoherent" but in another part of the story it mentions that they two women met for the first time that night. I assume she thought the other woman used some drugs while in the bathroom.

It is impossible to tell what her motives are but at the beginning of the same story one of the the defense attorneys claim she first said that she didn't believe the accuser but may have changed her story to get favorable treatment in an unrelated criminal case filed against her. Given that the prosecutor is up for reelection such dealings would be beneficial to him and both women.

I'm sure more information will be forthcoming.

 

[owensdj]

BaliBabyDoc, the reason the defense wouldn't want to tell the DA about his client's alibi timeline is that it would give the accuser a chance to make her statements about the rape fit the time he was at the house.

 

[conehead433]

Couldn't they have hired some better looking strippers? Must have hired these sight unseen.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Roberts, 31, was arrested on March 22 -- eight days after the party -- on a probation violation from a 2001 conviction for embezzling $25,000 from a photofinishing company in Durham where she was a payroll specialist, according to documents obtained by the AP.

How could a juror take anything these two say as truth? These two sound like a couple total losers and if if they were rapped DA is going to have a difficult time proving it.

Anyone know if the DA is chocolate???

 

[tommywishbone]

Originally posted by: conehead433
Couldn't they have hired some better looking strippers? Must have hired these sight unseen.

:thumbsup:

 

[conehead433]

Additionally I think they could have found some better prospects for sex if in fact it did occur.

 

[piasabird]

I think that this Lacrosse Team may have quite a bit to hide. There are rumors of some disturbing E-Mails from them saying all kinds of things. Lets just say that one of them is very A-moral and thinks he is so upper crust he can get away with abusing women.

So here we go.

A. Defend Female Stripper an A-moral woman.

B. Defend Rich Upper Class A-moral student.

As a side note Moral does not necessarily annotate religious upbringing but reflect the societies normal standard of conduct. I think the eroding of what is considered moral in our society has a direct result in this case. If we accept a stripper then maybe the breakdown of societal standards led us to this point just as much as a person who rapes a woman. i.e. one thing leads to another. Rape in this case if it is rape and may appear to be the case, is a very serious crime. Stripping may be legal, but many people consider it wrong and an immoral act. Thus we have a quandry.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: conehead433
Couldn't they have hired some better looking strippers? Must have hired these sight unseen.

I actually 99% convinced they did'nt rape them at this point.

Probably said something very true like " you nasty cottage cheesed assed hos expect us to pay for that? GTF out and send some women." And this is retribution. You know, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned and all that. My wife even says women these days "just make things up" and thinks so in this case.

PIMP probably beat her down for non-payment so she shifted the blame knowing PIMP would kill her vs. "how can I profit form this" (that's a direct quote from one of the dancers)

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Zebo

Roberts, 31, was arrested on March 22 -- eight days after the party -- on a probation violation from a 2001 conviction for embezzling $25,000 from a photofinishing company in Durham where she was a payroll specialist, according to documents obtained by the AP.

How could a juror take anything these two say as truth? These two sound like a couple total losers and if if they were rapped DA is going to have a difficult time proving it.

Anyone know if the DA is chocolate???

You mean black? No he's white southern democrat, sounds like John Edwards but even more provincial.

 

[tommywishbone]

After further review, this case will never see the inside of a courtroom.

No DNA
Criminal history of prosecution witness
He said v. She said aka stripper v. rich college boys
The 2nd stripper is a complete disaster. No DA will EVER use her in court.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: owensdj
BaliBabyDoc, the reason the defense wouldn't want to tell the DA about his client's alibi timeline is that it would give the accuser a chance to make her statements about the rape fit the time he was at the house.

That doesn't make any sense. The accuser created the timeline when she reported the crime. Her room for modification is bounded by external observations as well . . . the neighbor, the other stripper, maybe the cabby, and the time stamp on the pix.

Seligman's alibi would have been just as strong three weeks ago as it was this week. Other players probably have reasons to sit on singing but Seligman (or his representation) made a serious error.

 

[DickFnTracy]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: owensdj
BaliBabyDoc, the reason the defense wouldn't want to tell the DA about his client's alibi timeline is that it would give the accuser a chance to make her statements about the rape fit the time he was at the house.

That doesn't make any sense. The accuser created the timeline when she reported the crime. Her room for modification is bounded by external observations as well . . . the neighbor, the other stripper, maybe the cabby, and the time stamp on the pix.

Seligman's alibi would have been just as strong three weeks ago as it was this week. Other players probably have reasons to sit on singing but Seligman (or his representation) made a serious error.

Actually, I think it's a brilliant move by Seligman's attorney. If the alibi is airtight then he has completely discredited the accuser. What's she gonna do now say " oh I'm sorry it wasn't him, it was that guy. All them white boys look alike." Sorry, she only gets one shot at ID. If Seligman's attorney sat on this evidence with a just wait and see, we don't want to protest too much type attitude, I think it's turned out to be a beautiful tactic not only for them but for the entire defense team.