Egypt Riots

[CrackRabbit]

If the people of Egypt chose Satan as their leader it would be their problem, not mine or yours. Your double standard here is disgusting when it comes to democracy. For Egpytians, you have no problem with their military removing a democratically-elected leader. For Americans? You would not stand for it one minute. A hypocrite and a coward all-in-one. Can recommend it for others but not for yourself.

And I get the impression you're one of those people that go around wearing your patriotism on your sleeve. Unlike me, you've never fought for your country so you have no idea what it truly means and how democracy is worth dying for. So you treat it like it's optional when convenient but, when not, it can be taken away at any time. That's not how democracy works. You take the good with the bad and you wait your turn at the ballot box.

I agree with what you are saying Dari, but look at it this way. But Egypt's situation is kind of the exception to the rule.
Morsi was taking the short road to turning Egypt back into a dictatorship, just like so many other tin pot dictators before him. Chavez in Venezuela and Saddam in Iraq are perfect examples.
The only difference is he didn't have the army behind him.

 

[Dari]

I'm sorry I missed something. Would you tell everyone about my past? You've made a declarative statement and I'm interested in seeing the details.

Regarding military service since you think that's relevant, the Oath you supposedly took does not mention democracy. It does mention, among other things, defending the Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic. It also mentions following the Presidents orders. He hornet is bound by a similar oath. Now I posit a hypothetical, something which has not pixies. What if a President is elected who grossly violates the Constitution? I don't mean Obama does this or Bush did that but something egregious. Further, he intends to stay in power by force.

Where lies legitimate democracy? Would you defend the elected tyrant who renounces his obligations and his clear duty? Will you violate your oath to defend the Constitution in his favor? He was elected after all. You have already said yes didn't you? Yes you did.

But I know where honor and duty lie and supporting an elected usurper is not on that path.

Regarding patriotism on one's sleeve, to which I'll add boasting of one's service, I subscribe to Boswell's Johnson who remarked its the last refuge of a scoundrel.

All elected leaders are bound by laws. Cross it and you're out. But this is not what happened in Egypt. Egypt has a legislature, constitution, and courts apparatus. When you have the military usurping all those avenue of contentions, a military with a history of coups, then something is seriously wrong. Morsi was democratically and he did not seek to change the constitution via illegal means. He tried to do it legally, including making the military subservient to civilian leadership. How you can have an issue with this I don't know.

Then again, this has nothing to do with hypothicals and everything to do with your hatred of either Islamists or whatever you think Morsi and his government represents. This is your problem. You can't shake off your stinking bias and admit that wrong is wrong.

 

[Dari]

I agree with what you are saying Dari, but look at it this way. But Egypt's situation is kind of the exception to the rule.
Morsi was taking the short road to turning Egypt back into a dictatorship, just like so many other tin pot dictators before him. Chavez in Venezuela and Saddam in Iraq are perfect examples.
The only difference is he didn't have the army behind him.

I don't speak Arabic so I cannot vouch for the authenticity of the accusations against the Muslim Brotherhood. But what I do know is this. Morsi was democratically elected. The members of his party in the legislature were democratically elected. If they sought to change any law or the constitution itself and they did it via the legal way then there is nothing wrong with that. It's no different from Obama doing something similar here. So long as it's legal the military should step aside. Why? Because it's the will of the people. That is why there are constitutional courts and, more importantly, a democratic process. Having the army, an institution with a history of coups, getting rid of an entire leadership is bad bad bad.

Wrong is wrong.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

All elected leaders are bound by laws. Cross it and you're out. But this is not what happened in Egypt. Egypt has a legislature, constitution, and courts apparatus. When you have the military usurping all those avenue of contentions, a military with a history of coups, then something is seriously wrong. Morsi was democratically and he did not seek to change the constitution via illegal means. He tried to do it legally, including making the military subservient to civilian leadership. How you can have an issue with this I don't know.

Then again, this has nothing to do with hypothicals and everything to do with your hatred of either Islamists or whatever you think Morsi and his government represents. This is your problem. You can't shake off your stinking bias and admit that wrong is wrong.

No, if they are elected that's all that matters. Satan gets a pass. While we're at it lets dig deeper and ask Earl if he thinks I hate muslims.

 

[Incorruptible]

So? He's a conservative muslim in a conservative country. par for the course. That does not mean he should be overthrown you goddamn moron.

That radical wants to kill Jews you scumbag.

 

[CWRMadcat]

That radical wants to kill Jews you scumbag.

Then let the state of Israel deal with him if it comes to that?

 

[Orignal Earl]

No, if they are elected that's all that matters. Satan gets a pass. While we're at it lets dig deeper and ask Earl if he thinks I hate muslims.

HR seems to me to be someone open to discussion and interested in learning the truth
So in an AT P&N scale that's like doing great

 

[Dari]

No, if they are elected that's all that matters. Satan gets a pass. While we're at it lets dig deeper and ask Earl if he thinks I hate muslims.

No it's not all that matters. There are rules and institutions that are meant to curb the powers of elected officials. If you are too stupid to understand that then there is no need to prolong this conversation because it's no longer constructive.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

No it's not all that matters. There are rules and institutions that are meant to curb the powers of elected officials. If you are too stupid to understand that then there is no need to prolong this conversation because it's no longer constructive.

No I get that. I also know that once Morsi gained power the Constitution was essentially written to his specs. Other opposition to Mubarik was shut down.

When we kicked our old boss out in the US, George Washington didn't say "Here's your Constitution and I hope you like it because it's what I want."

Egypt wasn't bound to our approach but it's beyond credulity that they expected to have one person or group dictate the foudation of law. That's my problem with the legitimacy of Morsi. I reject being Muslim as cause. People from all regions and religions have been treated so. I will not however withold criticism of those who hijack a process for perpetual gain. This is a case of removing those who took advantage and stacked the deck in their favor. If all parties involved had the opportunity to craft the fundamental legal document then I would not have been as harsh as I was.

The people of Egypt were due a fair and impartial beginning which they were denied. THAT is my objection and the basis for my support of the Egyptian people.

Now if that's too hard to get then we are indeed done

 

[EagleKeeper]

No it's not all that matters. There are rules and institutions that are meant to curb the powers of elected officials. If you are too stupid to understand that then there is no need to prolong this conversation because it's no longer constructive.

They were elected and operated under the existing rules.

Governments should not retroactively apply a new law - that is wrong.

Change a law and apply it into the future.

If their system chooses to not enforce the laws; then they have a problem.
work to change the system and/or replace the violators.
Similar to the US government - selectively choosing what laws they want to apply.

 

[Abwx]

The egyptian army control a big part of the economy ,
they created economic slow downs and chronic electricity ,
gas and fuel shortages since Morsi was elected to manipulate
the people , the decision to stage this coup was done long
before thoses false flag protests that were unrelentlessly
mediatized by the same army.

Us ambassador cautionned Morsi as early as the 23 june
that the army has secretely decided to remove him of power.

use goog. translate :

http://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/artic...l-avance-par-les-militaires_3443524_3212.html

 

[Doppel]

The egyptian army control a big part of the economy ,
they created economic slow downs and chronic electricity ,
gas and fuel shortages since Morsi was elected to manipulate
the people , the decision to stage this coup was done long
before thoses false flag protests that were unrelentlessly
mediatized by the same army.

Us ambassador cautionned Morsi as early as the 23 june
that the army has secretely decided to remove him of power.

use goog. translate :

http://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/artic...l-avance-par-les-militaires_3443524_3212.html

Militaries typically have plans before they are enacted and keep them secret. No conspiracy found. This guy has acted inappropriately for many months.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Militaries typically have plans before they are enacted and keep them secret. No conspiracy found. This guy has acted inappropriately for many months.

I'm uneasy with how this had to be done though. I don't want another mubarik but on tje other hand they can be the exception to the rule about governments not surrendering power. Ultimately they don't. They still have the power to intercede but do not always stand in the way of others controlling government.

I don't know how this will play out but I wish the Egyptian people the very best.

 

[JockoJohnson]

No it's not all that matters. There are rules and institutions that are meant to curb the powers of elected officials. If you are too stupid to understand that then there is no need to prolong this conversation because it's no longer constructive.

And what happens when he suspends the courts or writes laws that the courts can't overturn?

 

[KMFJD]

 

[Incorruptible]

Owned. The people in Egypt are smart enough to realize that obama was wrong unlike his ass-kissing supporters here. They called obama a terrorist and they're right, the same goes for his supporters.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Owned. The people in Egypt are smart enough to realize that obama was wrong unlike his ass-kissing supporters here. They called obama a terrorist and they're right, the same goes for his supporters.

Unfortunately for you, you're not smart enough to comprehend what you're reading there.

 

[werepossum]

I agree with what you are saying Dari, but look at it this way. But Egypt's situation is kind of the exception to the rule.
Morsi was taking the short road to turning Egypt back into a dictatorship, just like so many other tin pot dictators before him. Chavez in Venezuela and Saddam in Iraq are perfect examples.
The only difference is he didn't have the army behind him.

Well said.

Funny, but not really accurate. Morsi didn't yet qualify as a terrorist, and any US President is going to "finance" whomever is Egypt's president as long as he is not too overtly anti-US/anti-Israel. It's our way of attempting to buy Middle Eastern peace, as Egypt is Israel's only real threat. Until Iran goes nuclear, anyway.

Dictator, yes, soon. Terrorist, not really.

 

[klinc]

Egypt - Rioting in the streets to overthrow an evil dictatorship
Libya - Rioting in the streets to overthrow an evil dictatorship
Syria - Rioting in the streets to overthrow an evil dictatorship
Bristol - Rioting in the streets to stop them opening a new Tesco

 

[KMFJD]

Unfortunately for you, you're not smart enough to comprehend what you're reading there.

 

[unokitty]

Who says President Obama isn’t a unifier?

"Last week, Edmund Sanders of the Los Angeles Times reported from Cairo: “As rival camps of Egyptians protest for and against the toppling of President Mohamed Morsi, there is a rare point of agreement: America is to blame.” Both the Muslim Brotherhood and the coalition arrayed against it believe that the United States is against them. And, amazingly, both sides have a point."

Whatever happens, nobody in Egypt is likely to trust Obama’s word again.

Uno

 

[Olikan]

Dictator, yes, soon. Terrorist, not really.

why defend your government for such a move?
the american fear for the communism in the cold war lead to several countryes to have dictatorships...
and those damm countryes are still today suffering from the disgrace that the dictatorship brings

 

[werepossum]

why defend your government for such a move?
the american fear for the communism in the cold war lead to several countryes to have dictatorships...
and those damm countryes are still today suffering from the disgrace that the dictatorship brings

How am I defending my government for "such a move"? There are evidently a lot of Egyptians who hold Obama responsible for Morsi being in power. Personally I reject that. He did meet with the Muslim Brotherhood before the election, but the Muslim Brotherhood had the only real organization; our President simply cannot go around meeting with every little Egyptian dissident splinter group. The Muslim Brotherhood pretty much gamed the election by making sure only their candidate and Mubarak II were allowed candidates, but that's hardly Obama's fault. And Obama neither overthrew Morsi nor gave the Egyptian military permission to do so.

I fail to see how Obama or the US government is responsible for any of this. Our one recent attempt to peaceably overthrow a Middle Eastern dictator - the Shah of Iran - resulted in the Iranian people being even more oppressed. Do you really expect or want America to invade and save you from your own military or your own elected dictator in progress? Sooner or later Middle Easterners and Muslims have to learn to stand on their own hind legs and stop blaming America. In the mean time, I suggest you look at Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan and tell me which you think is in better shape than Egypt today.

 

[werepossum]

Egypt - Rioting in the streets to overthrow an evil dictatorship
Libya - Rioting in the streets to overthrow an evil dictatorship
Syria - Rioting in the streets to overthrow an evil dictatorship
Bristol - Rioting in the streets to stop them opening a new Tesco

+1

 

[Olikan]

I fail to see how Obama or the US government is responsible for any of this. Our one recent attempt to peaceably overthrow a Middle Eastern dictator - the Shah of Iran - resulted in the Iranian people being even more oppressed.

eh! just seemed that you were defending a "lesser evil"...nevermind