Discussion Elon Musk's Martian Fantasy

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Shmee

Memory & Storage, Graphics Cards Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 13, 2008
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Just don't go in the mines.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,290
14,784
136
Putting a few people on Mars in a flag planting ceremony, does nothing. It's not a shot at anything.

Mars is completely inhospitable. You can't expand colonies there using local resources. Nearly everything needed for life has to be imported from Earth.

It has no radiation shielding so you need to live underground.

We have no idea what impact the low gravity would have on human life cycle, and changing the gravity of a planet is quite a challenge.

The regolith is toxic to plants (The Martian was science fiction that glossed over this, simply adding poop won't do it. It looks like Lunar regolith is more compatible with plant life than Martian toxic regolith). Ever gram of Soil would need to be heavily processed to remove toxic perchlorates, and then would need enrichement with fertilizers, appropriate minerals, bacteria.

Mars is essentially barren of nitrogen to grow plants. This is critical, you can't just create nitrogen, you have to import it, so you can't build more underground colony space without that imported nitrogen. There is no growing self sufficiency if you can't locally create the air that life needs.

You can only terraform Mars if you already have an obscenely advanced space fairing civilization, capable of building a planet from scratch, because that is the scale of effort to terraform Mars.

At the point we could Terraform Mars, we will already have millions if not billions of people living in artificial space habitats, that will be much better suited for human life, so Mars will neither be a "backup" because we have many backups in space already, nor will it be more desirable than artificial space habitats that has ideal human tuned characteristics.

Yea. But lets try anyway. Faith brother, have a little faith
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,929
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I doubt humans will be able to colonize Mars due to lots of factors, low gravity, cosmic rays, psychology etc. etc. at most a research station like McMurdo in Antarctica. If Starship fulfills it's goals of full rapid reusability with a 100 ton payload maybe it's enough for resupplying what can't be provided by in situ resource utilization at a reasonable cost.

But would it be so bad if someone makes the attempt? >99% of the world's resources will still be spent on Earth and whichever way it ends, we'll learn something valuable.

This issue is who is funding it? There are literally millions of starving children on Earth, and hundreds of millions of people living with hunger.

It would cost >$100 Billion to put a small base on Mars that could house 20 people or less, and >$10 Billion/year supporting them and rotating personnel.

That much funding could literally end hunger on Earth.

Support 20 people playing on Mars, or lift hundreds of millions of people on Earth out of hunger and starvation?

It's no contest where I would prefer my tax dollars being spent.

Lets make no mistake here, the Elon Musks of the world will be expecting Tax dollars to fund this. He's not planning to go broke going to Mars, he's planning to get richer while taxpayers fund a flag planting on Mars.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
69,786
13,370
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www.anyf.ca
Yeah I don't agree with any tax dollars going towards this. If Elon wants to use his own money, then that's one thing, but it should not be tax dollars.
 

Racan

Golden Member
Sep 22, 2012
1,254
2,323
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This issue is who is funding it? There are literally millions of starving children on Earth, and hundreds of millions of people living with hunger.

It would cost >$100 Billion to put a small base on Mars that could house 20 people or less, and >$10 Billion/year supporting them and rotating personnel.

That much funding could literally end hunger on Earth.

Support 20 people playing on Mars, or lift hundreds of millions of people on Earth out of hunger and starvation?

It's no contest where I would prefer my tax dollars being spent.

Lets make no mistake here, the Elon Musks of the world will be expecting Tax dollars to fund this. He's not planning to go broke going to Mars, he's planning to get richer while taxpayers fund a flag planting on Mars.

A McMurdo station equivalent would certainly be a multinational affair and it's purpose would be pure science not colonization. A collaboration between NASA, ESA and other space agencies and Starship could make it feasible. Though this isn't something that will happen anytime soon maybe ever.

"It would cost >$100 Billion to put a small base on Mars that could house 20 people or less, and >$10 Billion/year supporting them and rotating personnel.

That much funding could literally end hunger on Earth."

If that amount of spending would be enough to end world hunger it could have happened by now. And the reason it hasn't happened by now isn't NASA or other science related spending and a Mars base isn't the thing that will prevent that in the future.

Talking pure colonization efforts, SpaceX plans to use Starlink to fund it, there's no chance in hell governments would pay for that.
 
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Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,929
6,459
136
Talking pure colonization efforts, SpaceX plans to use Starlink to fund it, there's no chance in hell governments would pay for that.

News to me. I have seen them say it would better fund SpaceX rocket development, not that they would shoulder the financial burden of the endless and growing money pit involved in "colonizing" Mars.
 

Racan

Golden Member
Sep 22, 2012
1,254
2,323
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News to me. I have seen them say it would better fund SpaceX rocket development, not that they would shoulder the financial burden of the endless and growing money pit involved in "colonizing" Mars.
If they truly hope to rely on government funding for their plans then the chances of a Mars colony even being attempted are slimmer than I thought.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,919
1,398
136
a Mars colony is a dead end. fine if you want to retire there to die, but not much else is going to come from it.

as guidryp has mentioned, o'neill colonies are an infinitely better option for humans living off earth. micro gravity and even mars' .37 G is disastrous to the human body resulting in all kinds of atrophy (look up nasa twin study).

the moon and mars are ok for resource scrounging, they have tons of impact craters from clearing orbits and some of those rocks will have some useful minerals. but there is little point to living there long term.

as for musk, if he wants to spend his money on developing rockets then more power to him. the knowledge and side technology that will come out of it will still benefit the rest of us.
 
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Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
10,335
3,412
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I think the main issue with colonies on Mars is, well, ok there are a bunch including shielding people from solar radiation on the trip. They're going to be in space for months and are just going to get fried. I'm sure they'll survive but with how much genetic damage.

Aside from that though is electric power. If Elon were hiding a small, efficient fusion reactor someplace, I think he would have a better chance. There are massive volcanic caves on Mars which would do at least as well as Earth's atmosphere for shielding and with unlimited power, the terraforming process could begin on a small scale in such places.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,091
2,364
136
This issue is who is funding it? There are literally millions of starving children on Earth, and hundreds of millions of people living with hunger.

It would cost >$100 Billion to put a small base on Mars that could house 20 people or less, and >$10 Billion/year supporting them and rotating personnel.

That much funding could literally end hunger on Earth.

Support 20 people playing on Mars, or lift hundreds of millions of people on Earth out of hunger and starvation?

It's no contest where I would prefer my tax dollars being spent.

Lets make no mistake here, the Elon Musks of the world will be expecting Tax dollars to fund this. He's not planning to go broke going to Mars, he's planning to get richer while taxpayers fund a flag planting on Mars.

You can't end world hunger by throwing money at it. If money could end world hunger, it would have been ended by now.
 
Reactions: Number1 and Zorba

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,091
2,364
136
Getting humans off Earth permanently has ZERO to do with Musk's Ego trip to Mars. Mars is a shit place for humans and will always be a shit place for humans.

For now we are better off researching higher end robotics, AI, and nano-tech, to send that tech out, to construct our future space habitats and escape vehicles needed to ride out solar disaster, or perhaps hop to the next viable star. Planets are very hard to move, but purpose built colony ships aren't.

So long term, we'd be better off constructing purpose built space colonies that actually meet our needs, than living underground on inhospitable Mars.

Though most likely will destroy ourselves long before the Sun expands and causes us issues. Heck we could be watching WW3 starting in Ukraine right now.

The good thing is that Starship will help enable those purpose built space colonies.
 

Number1

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,881
549
126
Solving world hunger and space exporation are not mutualy exclusive. Elon is providing a service for less money than the government can build it. Look at the SLS abomination, soon to be obsolete, replaced with a machine fully reusable at a fraction of the cost, Starship will render space much more accesible and SAVE taxpayer money. Who knows, this might solve world hunger.
 
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Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
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There are massive volcanic caves on Mars which would do at least as well as Earth's atmosphere for shielding and with unlimited power, the terraforming process could begin on a small scale in such places.

While the Lava Tubes have great potential for saving excavation work for a potential base site, building a base inside a cave, is NOT terraforming.

Terraforming is making life on the entire surface of Mars livable, not a sealed base, nor is a sealed base incremental to terraforming. If you look at Terraforming ideas like starting with several thousand nuke bombs to melt CO2 like Musk suggest, you probably don't want people on the planet while that is going on.

It's almost like Musk is trolling the rubes with this nonsense.

Cave base building on Mars, is no more Terraforming, than building a base in the Lava Tubes on the Moon are, and no one talks about Terraforming the Moon.

Terraforming Mars is a fantasy. You have to import most of a planets worth of atmosphere (even after nuking the C02).

By the time we have the capability to do that, we will already be living in superior space habitats.

I haven't verified the numbers but I have seen claims that the big metal based Asteroid 16 Psyche has enough material to build a Million O'Neill Cylinders. Each of these could easily house over a Million Humans(so over 1 trillion population living in space), that will have properly tuned Earth like conditions, with 1.0G, full Radiation shielding, some mix of real and artificial sunlight, etc...

Terraforming is a horribly inefficient use of resources, for an inferior outcome. If/when we ever reach the point we could even actually do it.

We will probably put a Human on Mars, and may even sustain a base there for some period of time, but that's almost certainly where it ends. A self sustaining city on Mars, or Terraforming it are Fantasies.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,290
14,784
136
While the Lava Tubes have great potential for saving excavation work for a potential base site, building a base inside a cave, is NOT terraforming.

Terraforming is making life on the entire surface of Mars livable, not a sealed base, nor is a sealed base incremental to terraforming. If you look at Terraforming ideas like starting with several thousand nuke bombs to melt CO2 like Musk suggest, you probably don't want people on the planet while that is going on.

It's almost like Musk is trolling the rubes with this nonsense.

Cave base building on Mars, is no more Terraforming, than building a base in the Lava Tubes on the Moon are, and no one talks about Terraforming the Moon.

Terraforming Mars is a fantasy. You have to import most of a planets worth of atmosphere (even after nuking the C02).

By the time we have the capability to do that, we will already be living in superior space habitats.

I haven't verified the numbers but I have seen claims that the big metal based Asteroid 16 Psyche has enough material to build a Million O'Neill Cylinders. Each of these could easily house over a Million Humans(so over 1 trillion population living in space), that will have properly tuned Earth like conditions, with 1.0G, full Radiation shielding, some mix of real and artificial sunlight, etc...

Terraforming is a horribly inefficient use of resources, for an inferior outcome. If/when we ever reach the point we could even actually do it.

We will probably put a Human on Mars, and may even sustain a base there for some period of time, but that's almost certainly where it ends. A self sustaining city on Mars, or Terraforming it are Fantasies.

Ill just say that its fairly easy to google up professors and whatnot with in depth knowledge on the subjects required that is not as stead fast in that opinion.
I dont know what your field is but even if it is a phd in space habitats, dealing in absolutes like that is, I think, a losing hand.
 
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Number1

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,881
549
126
While the Lava Tubes have great potential for saving excavation work for a potential base site, building a base inside a cave, is NOT terraforming.

Terraforming is making life on the entire surface of Mars livable, not a sealed base, nor is a sealed base incremental to terraforming. If you look at Terraforming ideas like starting with several thousand nuke bombs to melt CO2 like Musk suggest, you probably don't want people on the planet while that is going on.

It's almost like Musk is trolling the rubes with this nonsense.

Cave base building on Mars, is no more Terraforming, than building a base in the Lava Tubes on the Moon are, and no one talks about Terraforming the Moon.

Terraforming Mars is a fantasy. You have to import most of a planets worth of atmosphere (even after nuking the C02).

By the time we have the capability to do that, we will already be living in superior space habitats.

I haven't verified the numbers but I have seen claims that the big metal based Asteroid 16 Psyche has enough material to build a Million O'Neill Cylinders. Each of these could easily house over a Million Humans(so over 1 trillion population living in space), that will have properly tuned Earth like conditions, with 1.0G, full Radiation shielding, some mix of real and artificial sunlight, etc...

Terraforming is a horribly inefficient use of resources, for an inferior outcome. If/when we ever reach the point we could even actually do it.

We will probably put a Human on Mars, and may even sustain a base there for some period of time, but that's almost certainly where it ends. A self sustaining city on Mars, or Terraforming it are Fantasies.

Space travel was a Fantasie a 100 years ago. Good thing you weren't around back then to stop this space nonsense.
 
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Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,929
6,459
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Ill just say that its fairly easy to google up professors and whatnot with in depth knowledge on the subjects required that is not as stead fast in that opinion.
I dont know what your field is but even if it is a phd in space habitats, dealing in absolutes like that is, I think, a losing hand.

Not clear what you disagree with.

But it's fairly easy to Google up some scientist who will deny that human CO2 production is causing global warming. You can Google up some supposed authority to support/deny nearly any position. It 's the consensus that counts.

I've been following this for years, and the consensus has Terraforming Mars look like a Fantasy.

I didn't just look at this today. I've followed this stuff for years. IIRC Nuking the CO2 would only double the atmospheric pressure on Mars. Congratulations, you moved atmospheric pressure from less than 1% to less than 2%.

Only about 98% of a planets worth of atmosphere to be imported.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,290
14,784
136
Not clear what you disagree with.

But it's fairly easy to Google up some scientist who will deny that human CO2 production is causing global warming. You can Google up some supposed authority to support/deny nearly any position. It 's the consensus that counts.

I've been following this for years, and the consensus has Terraforming Mars look like a Fantasy.

I didn't just look at this today. I've followed this stuff for years. IIRC Nuking the CO2 would only double the atmospheric pressure on Mars. Congratulations, you moved atmospheric pressure from less than 1% to less than 2%.

Only about 98% of a planets worth of atmosphere to be imported.
Yea, I know terraforming is still fringe, thats why I honed in on the self sustaining colony part… be it underground domes whatnot… And I have a little faith that once we’re there “for real” human beings, specially the best and brightest of us up there, will find new ways to push the limits.
 

himkhan

Senior member
Jul 13, 2013
665
370
136
If it wasn't for Musk you would be complaining about having to use russian rockets to get to space. Technology is moving forward. Deal with it. So there was my thought. Ill trow in a amen if you ask nicely. Beside, your articles are rather dated, the BBC one is from 2016.

We can already get to Mars without Elons help. FGS....

Unless Elon has some plan to fix red blood cell hemolysis (among several other human issues), which he btw does NOT, this is all just a huge joke on rubes that think his rockets are our salvation or that his technology is jumping all the hurdles we have in place before we can do something like this. We are for sure getting places with our science innovations, we have the science, we just don't have the A & P shit figured out.

We will not, ever, be living on Mars in any of our lifetimes.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,929
6,459
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Yea, I know terraforming is still fringe, thats why I honed in on the self sustaining colony part… be it underground domes whatnot… And I have a little faith that once we’re there “for real” human beings, specially the best and brightest of us up there, will find new ways to push the limits.

To be self sustaining on Mars requires being able to manufacture all the high technology products you need to survive, and to do that at modern technology levels requires the complete interdependent manufacturing and resource chains of planet Earth.

Do you think TSMC is going to have a silicon fab churning out CPUs on Mars, along with a complete supply chain of every electronic, mechanical, chemical, pharmaceutical, component and resource?

Any Mars Colony is going to depend on high technology, to create power, and to keep the air breathable, and create fertilizer, or to fab even fairly low tech products for local use.

How do you fix all that high level technology? How do you fix the tools you use to fix that level of technology? etc...

Even the USA is not self sustaining, with 300 million plus citizens and most of and Earth continent worth of resources, and it would take monstrous amount of work make it so for the USA, for Mars it's another Fantasy.

It's "Theoretically Possible", but it would take massive unwavering commitment of the leading nations of Earth, to make it happen.

That's assuming it's even possible to birth and raise children in martian gravity.

Just because something is "theoretically possible", doesn't mean it isn't a fantasy.

This isn't 16th century Europeans landing in North America and felling some logs to build a house, planting and hunting for food. Self sustaining on an inhospitable planet is duplicating the entirety of the technology and resource supply chains, and there is no realistic path to getting there.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,290
14,784
136
Do you think TSMC is going to have a silicon fab churning out CPUs on Mars, along with a complete supply chain of every electronic, mechanical, chemical, pharmaceutical, component and resource?

Do a Mars colony need 3nm lithography in order to operate?

Anyway I dont have a *need* to be right, so I am done here .
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,929
6,459
136
Do a Mars colony need 3nm lithography in order to operate?

Anyway I dont have a *need* to be right, so I am done here .

Does a Mars Colony need computers, smart phone(pocket communicator/computers)??

You are going to need fabs, and the problem is all your high tech gear you are importing from earth is going to built using modern Fabs. So how do you fix it if Earth couldn't supply it anymore.
 
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