Eric Garner all over again

Page 8 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,236
14,236
136
I had assumed that Chauvin would be charged with murder premised on "depraved indifference." It's an unintentional killing, but with more than criminal negligence which is manslaughter. More like recklessness. In some states, it's second degree murder. In Minnesota, it's third degree.

(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.

Maximum 25 years. There is no minimum. It literally goes from probation to 25 years. I think these kinds of laws give judges too much discretion in sentencing.
 
Reactions: JEDIYoda

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
I had assumed that Chauvin would be charged with murder premised on "depraved indifference." It's an unintentional killing, but with more than criminal negligence which is manslaughter. More like recklessness. In some states, it's second degree murder. In Minnesota, it's third degree.



Maximum 25 years. There is no minimum. It literally goes from probation to 25 years. I think these kinds of laws give judges too much discretion in sentencing.
agreed!! Don`t forget Trump can pardon him.......
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
let me be very clear on the subject of this murderers arrest!
They arrested hum for several reasons.....
#1 -- They are protecting one of their own!
IMO this man would have probably been killed with no witnesses
#2 -- By arresting him they are using this to attempt to stop the rioting tonight!
#3 -- He might not be in custody today had somebody not pointed out during the news conference how quickly that black/hispanic CNN news commentator was immediately arrested for doing his job...
IMO they saved the city of Minneapolis and they possibly stopped bllod shed from happening tonight!
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,549
761
146
any *potential* intoxicants!

Even if true, I don't think it changes much. He made no attempt at making sure Floyd was ok and even has his hands in his pockets, indicating that there's little point for the knee technique. They also surely would have known he was heavily intoxicated since that was reported, making the technique for such a prolonged period even more ill-advised.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,080
136
Just saw in the news the cop has been charged with murder. I guess there occasionally is justice in America.
But I'm sure Trumpettes across America will be assaulting twitter with their bullshit for weeks about him.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,856
3,808
136


any *potential* intoxicants!

That's right up there with "no active warrants" on the racist meter.

I have family there and have spent a lot of time there, but the description of present day Minnesota as "Mississippi with snow" seems very accurate.
 
Reactions: BlueWeasel

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,236
14,236
136
Another cell phone video out which shows the opposite angle, from the other side of the car. In the original video, you can't see the rest of Floyd's body to know that in addition to Chauvin kneeling on his neck, two other offices were kneeling on his body. Looks like one at the midsection and the other on the legs.


So they needed three cops to sit on one unarmed, handcuffed man who in one video was shown not to be resisting before they restrained him? What a bunch of goons.

This, I suspect, will strengthen the case against the other cops besides Chauvin.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
25,462
11,841
136
Another cell phone video out which shows the opposite angle, from the other side of the car. In the original video, you can't see the rest of Floyd's body to know that in addition to Chauvin kneeling on his neck, two other offices were kneeling on his body. Looks like one at the midsection and the other on the legs.


So they needed three cops to sit on one unarmed, handcuffed man who in one video was shown not to be resisting before they restrained him? What a bunch of goons.

This, I suspect, will strengthen the case against the other cops besides Chauvin.
This. I think the cop behind Chauvin was doing as much to interfere with Floyd's breathing as Chauvin.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,236
14,236
136
This. I think the cop behind Chauvin was doing as much to interfere with Floyd's breathing as Chauvin.

I can't quite tell from the video, but if that second officer in line was kneeling on his chest, then I would agree. In fact, it may have been a combination of pressure on the neck and pressure on the chest which proved fatal. If so, at least one other officer should get the same murder 3 charge as Chauvin.

My bet is that they're waiting on the ME report for official cause of death before making a charging decision for the other officers.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
25,462
11,841
136
I can't quite tell from the video, but if that second officer in line was kneeling on his chest, then I would agree. In fact, it may have been a combination of pressure on the neck and pressure on the chest which proved fatal. If so, at least one other officer should get the same murder 3 charge as Chauvin.

My bet is that they're waiting on the ME report for official cause of death before making a charging decision for the other officers.
Damn, can't find it on google but someone posted in another post here the preliminary coroners report and said there was no evidence of a collapsed trachea.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,236
14,236
136
Damn, can't find it on google but someone posted in another post here the preliminary coroners report and said there was no evidence of a collapsed trachea.

Yeah, I hadn't seen that. Googled it. Direct quote:

An autopsy said there is no physical findings that support death by traumatic asphyxia or strangulation, but says "the combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death.

I think this report is preliminary in the sense that the actual autopsy isn't done yet.

What's interesting here is that if this really wasn't strangulation but a combination of intoxicants, pre-existing health conditions, and being restrained, why is any one of three more or less guilty than the others? Either this cause of death exonerates them all, or makes them all equality guilty, depending on how the arguments play out.
 
Reactions: hal2kilo

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,236
14,236
136
If that preliminary ME report holds, this case is immensely similar to the Garner case. Garner was put in a choke-hold, against department policy. But he had pre-existing conditions such that the choke-hold caused his death even though most people under the same circumstance wouldn't have died. Recall that the grand jury declined to indict the officer. IIRC he was fired for using the choke-hold against department policy but that was the only consequence.

If that is all that ultimately happens here, the rioting will be even worse than it is now.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
If that preliminary ME report holds, this case is immensely similar to the Garner case. Garner was put in a choke-hold, against department policy. But he had pre-existing conditions such that the choke-hold caused his death even though most people under the same circumstance wouldn't have died. Recall that the grand jury declined to indict the officer. IIRC he was fired for using the choke-hold against department policy but that was the only consequence.

If that is all that ultimately happens here, the rioting will be even worse than it is now.
Agreed! In fact let me say tonight might not be as wild as last night, but I will bet you weapons come out Saturday night on the rioters side....this aint over til its over!!
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,856
3,808
136
If that preliminary ME report holds, this case is immensely similar to the Garner case. Garner was put in a choke-hold, against department policy. But he had pre-existing conditions such that the choke-hold caused his death even though most people under the same circumstance wouldn't have died. Recall that the grand jury declined to indict the officer. IIRC he was fired for using the choke-hold against department policy but that was the only consequence.

If that is all that ultimately happens here, the rioting will be even worse than it is now.

Absolutely. Rodney King part Deux.

Except it would pretty difficult to argue that most people laying on the ground for ten minutes with one guy kneeling on their back and the other on their neck wouldn't die. If the murderer argues it's NBD, then he should be happy to have someone demonstrate that on him in court.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,236
14,236
136
Absolutely. Rodney King part Deux.

Except it would pretty difficult to argue that most people laying on the ground for ten minutes with one guy kneeling on their back and the other on their neck wouldn't die. If the murderer argues it's NBD, then he should be happy to have someone demonstrate that on him in court.

It won't be hard argue it if that is what the final ME report says. If it says the death was a combination of stress from being restrained, intoxication, and pre-existing health conditions, such that all three had to coincide, that is exactly what it means. No matter how extreme the officer's behavior as shown on the video, it's science which determines cause of death.

From a legal standpoint, when you have that kind of situation, it comes down to "foreseeability." The defense will be that they allegedly weren't applying that much pressure and that his death was an unforeseeable freak occurrence, a confluence of what they did with things they were unaware of but which weren't very likely. That's why the cop in the Garner case got off.

I personally think this is where the law of manslaughter needs to change in relation to police officers. Once you have proven the use of excessive force, meaning more force than is necessary to restrain the person given all the circumstances, they ought to be strictly liable for all consequences of the excessive force. If the person is unhurt, then they get lucky. If he's badly hurt, that's bad for them. If he dies, they're fucked. Regardless of foreseeability. Because police are trained in the use of force and ought to know that everyone's body is different and that which may not even harm one person may kill another. So all they should have to prove is 1) excessive force, and 2) resulting harm, not foreseeable resulting harm.

All that really matters is the excessive use of force. If the force applied was reasonable under the circumstances, they're not going to be at fault even if the harm was foreseeable, right? So use reasonable force and there's nothing to worry about. Use excessive force, and face whatever consequences ensue.

This is the only way to really deter the use of excessive force.

Unfortunately, that isn't the law and I'm getting little worried about how that ME report will affect the outcome.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Atreus21

SmCaudata

Senior member
Oct 8, 2006
969
1,532
136
It won't be hard argue it if that is what the final ME report says. If it says the death was a combination of stress from being restrained, intoxication, and pre-existing health conditions, such that all three had to coincide, that is exactly what it means. No matter how extreme the officer's behavior as shown on the video, it's science which determines cause of death.

From a legal standpoint, when you have that kind of situation, it comes down to "foreseeability." The defense will be that they allegedly weren't applying that much pressure and that his death was an unforeseeable freak occurrence, a confluence of what they did with things they were unaware of but which weren't very likely. That's why the cop in the Garner case got off.

I personally think this is where the law of manslaughter needs to change in relation to police officers. Once you have proven the use of excessive force, meaning more force than is necessary to restrain the person given all the circumstances, they ought to be strictly liable for all consequences of the excessive force. If the person is unhurt, then they get lucky. If he's badly hurt, that's bad for them. If he dies, they're fucked. Regardless of foreseeability. Because police are trained in the use of force and ought to know that everyone's body is different and that which may not even harm one person may kill another. So all they should have to prove is 1) excessive force, and 2) resulting harm, not foreseeable resulting harm.

All that really matters is the excessive use of force. If the force applied was reasonable under the circumstances, they're not going to be at fault even if the harm was foreseeable, right? So use reasonable force and there's nothing to worry about. Use excessive force, and face whatever consequences ensue.

This is the only way to really deter the use of excessive force.

Unfortunately, that isn't the law and I'm getting little worried about how that ME report will affect the outcome.
Any prosecutor worth a damn would shoot this down. Technically when a person is shot the often die from blood loss, not lead poisoning. The gun shot directly caused the damage that led to the blood loss. In this case, the unrelenting pressure on his neck was the cause of death. The guy wasn't dying before then.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
Reactions: Aegeon

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,236
14,236
136
Any prosecutor worth a damn would shoot this down. Technically when a person is shot the often die from blood loss, not lead poisoning. The gun shot directly caused the damage that led to the blood loss. In this case, the unrelenting pressure on his neck was the cause of death. The guy wasn't dying before then.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

No, their argument is not that the pressure they applied was only an indirect cause, which is what you're arguing against. It's that it combined with other conditions of the victim - underyling health conditions and degree of intoxication - all of which had to coincide, and which were unknown to them and improbable. They're going to say that we could have done the same thing to 20 other guys, and likely none of the others would have died. This was a winning legal argument in the Garner case.

I don't think this argument should even be available to them so long as the prosecution can prove that more force was used than was necessary, but unfortunately it may be. That said, the laws differ quite a bit from state to state and perhaps the law here is more favorable to the prosecution than it was in NY with Garner.
 

SmCaudata

Senior member
Oct 8, 2006
969
1,532
136
No, their argument is not that the pressure they applied was only an indirect cause, which is what you're arguing against. It's that it combined with other conditions of the victim - underyling health conditions and degree of intoxication - all of which had to coincide, and which were unknown to them and improbable. They're going to say that we could have done the same thing to 20 other guys, and likely none of the others would have died. This was a winning legal argument in the Garner case.

I don't think this argument should even be available to them so long as the prosecution can prove that more force was used than was necessary, but unfortunately it may be. That said, the laws differ quite a bit from state to state and perhaps the law here is more favorable to the prosecution than it was in NY with Garner.
I get what you are saying, I'm just thinking that several minutes of a guy saying he can't breathe long after he is demonstrably not resisting can be convincing to a jury, especially when the guy has 18 previous complaints including shooting someone.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,549
761
146
No, their argument is not that the pressure they applied was only an indirect cause, which is what you're arguing against. It's that it combined with other conditions of the victim - underyling health conditions and degree of intoxication - all of which had to coincide, and which were unknown to them and improbable. They're going to say that we could have done the same thing to 20 other guys, and likely none of the others would have died. This was a winning legal argument in the Garner case.

In the Garner case, Pantaleo had him in the controversial maneuver for a ridiculously short period. This guy on the other hand is using the knee technique on the neck,which they're taught is dangerous, for a long time and doesn't make any attempt to make sure he's okay even when it's clear he was unresponsive. He also puts his hands in his pockets indicating that he's not even afraid of this guy assaulting and the new info of the other two cops make it even more laughable. Lastly, I'm assuming they already knew he had drugs in his system because the store guy reported that he was heavily intoxicated.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
It won't be hard argue it if that is what the final ME report says. If it says the death was a combination of stress from being restrained, intoxication, and pre-existing health conditions, such that all three had to coincide, that is exactly what it means. No matter how extreme the officer's behavior as shown on the video, it's science which determines cause of death.

From a legal standpoint, when you have that kind of situation, it comes down to "foreseeability." The defense will be that they allegedly weren't applying that much pressure and that his death was an unforeseeable freak occurrence, a confluence of what they did with things they were unaware of but which weren't very likely. That's why the cop in the Garner case got off.

I personally think this is where the law of manslaughter needs to change in relation to police officers. Once you have proven the use of excessive force, meaning more force than is necessary to restrain the person given all the circumstances, they ought to be strictly liable for all consequences of the excessive force. If the person is unhurt, then they get lucky. If he's badly hurt, that's bad for them. If he dies, they're fucked. Regardless of foreseeability. Because police are trained in the use of force and ought to know that everyone's body is different and that which may not even harm one person may kill another. So all they should have to prove is 1) excessive force, and 2) resulting harm, not foreseeable resulting harm.

All that really matters is the excessive use of force. If the force applied was reasonable under the circumstances, they're not going to be at fault even if the harm was foreseeable, right? So use reasonable force and there's nothing to worry about. Use excessive force, and face whatever consequences ensue.

This is the only way to really deter the use of excessive force.

Unfortunately, that isn't the law and I'm getting little worried about how that ME report will affect the outcome.
One thing you can bet when it does go to trtial thr prosecution will ask the murderer to show us how he could put his knee on that mans neck and with no sdupport or with his hands in his pocket not put all his weight on the dead man....look at the video of that guiys posture.....he really did know what he was doing! Both hands in his pockets and n o means of support, knee one knee on the guys neck and the other on his back...lol
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |