EVE!

[Lonbjerg]

On another topic, I am doing the final COSMOS missions for Caldari.

There is a problem with that, as the last part of the chain take place in Otomainen (0.5)...with the only access being through Ihakana (0.4)..that is being gatecamped 24/7 buy a "pirate"-corp called "Ilde Guns"

They don't like to PvP, so they gatecamp in hope of catching PvE ships at the chokepoint.

Then you have 2 choices...whine or adapt.

I adapted:
[Drake, Passive]

[HIGH]
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Drone Link Augmentor I

[MID]
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II

[LOW]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

[RIGS]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

If there is no camp, I pass through Ihakana with no effort.

If there is a camp, I log off after jumping while cloaked.
Why log off?

You are cloacked for 30 seconds after jumping through a gate.
If you log off while cloaked, you ship will emergency warp after 60 secs(all active modules shut off though).

That means they got 30 seconds (gate camp is usually a Paladin + tackle) to kill that drake.
With their damagetype being em/therm...they fail everytime :sneaky:

I am now just 1 COSMOS mission away from the "goodies":
1xNavy Issue Hookbill 2 Run BPC
1xNavy Issue Caracal 2 Run BPC
1xNavy Issue Raven 2 Run BPC

*snickers*

 

[ichy]

After taking some time off from EVE to play Fallout I am back. Hasn't been much corp. PvP action going on in the past few days when I log on, so I'm working on picking up the huge amount of salvage that I bought for cheap out in 0.0. I think I finally found a reliable way to make ISK, since plenty of 0.0 ratters will sell salvage for a fraction of the price they could get in Jita. Sneaking through null-sec is a pain, but salvage is small enough that it'll fit into a covert ops frigate, and those are extremely tough for even a nasty gate-camp to catch.

 

[Martimus]

http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=171440

Why use three ruptures? I had enough time to kill and pod a hulk in a 0.9 system with my gank fit Thorax alone. I even was at -10 when I did it (I came in through a wormhole, and warped to the hulk at 3km where my cloaked covert ops ship was).

The rupture does seem to be the high-sec gank ship of choice though, even for my alliance. I am wondering what the reason is though. As I said, I was able to kill the hulk, and even get his pod before concord got me the one time I tried suiciding someone in high-sec.

 

[Red Storm]

On another topic, I am doing the final COSMOS missions for Caldari.

There is a problem with that, as the last part of the chain take place in Otomainen (0.5)...with the only access being through Ihakana (0.4)..that is being gatecamped 24/7 buy a "pirate"-corp called "Ilde Guns"

They don't like to PvP, so they gatecamp in hope of catching PvE ships at the chokepoint.

Then you have 2 choices...whine or adapt.

I adapted:
[Drake, Passive]

[HIGH]
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Drone Link Augmentor I

[MID]
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II

[LOW]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

[RIGS]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

If there is no camp, I pass through Ihakana with no effort.

If there is a camp, I log off after jumping while cloaked.
Why log off?

You are cloacked for 30 seconds after jumping through a gate.
If you log off while cloaked, you ship will emergency warp after 60 secs(all active modules shut off though).

That means they got 30 seconds (gate camp is usually a Paladin + tackle) to kill that drake.
With their damagetype being em/therm...they fail everytime :sneaky:

I am now just 1 COSMOS mission away from the "goodies":
1xNavy Issue Hookbill 2 Run BPC
1xNavy Issue Caracal 2 Run BPC
1xNavy Issue Raven 2 Run BPC

*snickers*

You can still "emergency warp" even when under tackle?

 

[Martimus]

On another topic, I am doing the final COSMOS missions for Caldari.

There is a problem with that, as the last part of the chain take place in Otomainen (0.5)...with the only access being through Ihakana (0.4)..that is being gatecamped 24/7 buy a "pirate"-corp called "Ilde Guns"

They don't like to PvP, so they gatecamp in hope of catching PvE ships at the chokepoint.

Then you have 2 choices...whine or adapt.

I adapted:
[Drake, Passive]

[HIGH]
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Drone Link Augmentor I

[MID]
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II

[LOW]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

[RIGS]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

If there is no camp, I pass through Ihakana with no effort.

If there is a camp, I log off after jumping while cloaked.
Why log off?

You are cloacked for 30 seconds after jumping through a gate.
If you log off while cloaked, you ship will emergency warp after 60 secs(all active modules shut off though).

That means they got 30 seconds (gate camp is usually a Paladin + tackle) to kill that drake.
With their damagetype being em/therm...they fail everytime :sneaky:

I am now just 1 COSMOS mission away from the "goodies":
1xNavy Issue Hookbill 2 Run BPC
1xNavy Issue Caracal 2 Run BPC
1xNavy Issue Raven 2 Run BPC

*snickers*

That isn't how the log-off mechanics work, but your conclusion may be correct. First, if you log off without aggression, there is a 30 second timer before your ship disappears, if you log off with aggression (are attacked or attack anything, including rats) you have 15 minutes before your ship disappears. Your ship will try to warp immediately once you log off. It will not wait until the cloak timer is done. However, you still only have a 30 second timer before your ship disappears.

So you have to figure out if your ship can withstand 30K damage in that time. (or about 1000 DPS for 30 seconds) if the actual gate camp is as small as you state. And if it really is, I am going to blow up a Paladin tonight.

 

[Lonbjerg]

That isn't how the log-off mechanics work, but your conclusion may be correct. First, if you log off without aggression, there is a 30 second timer before your ship disappears, if you log off with aggression (are attacked or attack anything, including rats) you have 15 minutes before your ship disappears. Your ship will try to warp immediately once you log off. It will not wait until the cloak timer is done. However, you still only have a 30 second timer before your ship disappears.

So you have to figure out if your ship can withstand 30K damage in that time. (or about 1000 DPS for 30 seconds) if the actual gate camp is as small as you state. And if it really is, I am going to blow up a Paladin tonight.

Well, when I logged back in I had 75% shields...so something hit me, could be that I am wrong.

And it's almost for sure that Lila Gabs will be on the gate into Ihakana from Otomainen (I Suspect a cloaked scout at the gate in Otomainen)

He as a 40.000.000.000 isk bounty and you can se the favoured fitting here:
http://boss.eve-kill.net/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8200152

The tacker is usually this guy:
http://boss.eve-kill.net/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6168456

Most time just them...but sometimes they are more(4-5 ships).

I guess there are some nice kills to be had there, as they usually agress and get the gategun fire rihhgt of the bat.

 

[Martimus]

Well, when I logged back in I had 75% shields...so something hit me, could be that I am wrong.

And it's almost for sure that Lila Gabs will be on the gate into Ihakana from Otomainen (I Suspect a cloaked scout at the gate in Otomainen)

He as a 40.000.000.000 isk bounty and you can se the favoured fitting here:
http://boss.eve-kill.net/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8200152

The tacker is usually this guy:
http://boss.eve-kill.net/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6168456

Most time just them...but sometimes they are more(4-5 ships).

I guess there are some nice kills to be had there, as they usually agress and get the gategun fire rihhgt of the bat.

That is four jumps from my home system, and setting up 4 round trip cynos for a non-faction fit Palladin is a little more than I would like to do. Maybe I can move some ships over there on the gate, and just do a log-on trick at the gate once he has already engaged. I don't know if it is really worth it though, but if he has a 40B ISK bounty, I don't see why I can't get a scan res boosted T3 to nab his pod. Even if he is careful, we would have a better than 50% chance of nabbing it if we set out with that in mind. Could just have one BS with SBs too to make sure.

 

[TheVrolok]

Why use three ruptures? I had enough time to kill and pod a hulk in a 0.9 system with my gank fit Thorax alone. I even was at -10 when I did it (I came in through a wormhole, and warped to the hulk at 3km where my cloaked covert ops ship was).

The rupture does seem to be the high-sec gank ship of choice though, even for my alliance. I am wondering what the reason is though. As I said, I was able to kill the hulk, and even get his pod before concord got me the one time I tried suiciding someone in high-sec.

Why use 3? There were 3 of us, and we were bored? Had nothing to do with need. I don't see the hulk KM on your KB, didn't post it? What was your thorax fit?

 

[JSt0rm]

martimus to bad we arent high sec capable

 

[Ross Ridge]

Civ shield boosters? :'(

It's all you need to tank high-sec belt rats, and to survive that suicide gank he'd've had to compromise his, uh... ice mining yield. Why he was mining ice in a Hulk is the part I don't understand.

 

[Martimus]

Why use 3? There were 3 of us, and we were bored? Had nothing to do with need. I don't see the hulk KM on your KB, didn't post it? What was your thorax fit?

Neutrons in the highs, Mag Stabs in the lows (plus a damage control), sensor booster, point, and web in the mids. It was set up for an offline pos bash in a wormhole, and I just kept that setup since it was a throwaway ship.

I did it a couple months ago, so it is probably about 100 kills back, even so I understand why you would have 3 on the kill. I have the same all the time, where we have a bunch of unnecessary kill-mail whores. I am one myself, so I don't mind others whoring a kill.

 

[JSt0rm]

I think i have mining level 1

 

[Fallen Kell]

How does making it impossible to gank people in 1.0 space affect the free-market at all? Are you telling me that revenue from ganking noobs and salvaging their ships is that good? Anyways, the only reason i mentioned it was because as i said i mine in 0.9 (by choice) and would prefer to not have my Hulk popped during hulkageddon which i have no control over, short of just not flying it or watching my back every 2 second. High security was designed as a way to avoid that. My choices were to risk it or leave the game (during hulkageddon). I would have prefered a third option. I don't do combat btw, I RP as a pro miner and manufacturing. My character doesn't swing that way.

I respect your opinion though as well as all the rest. It takes all types to make an MMO worth the trouble. We all want what we want.

No, he is saying the revenue from ganking highsec care-bears, traders, and mission runners will affect the free-market. If I could be flagged as no-pvp, I would be transporting billions of isk worth of gear between Jita and the other region trading hubs (as well as the jump-off points to null). And I could easily do that in just a T1 industrial, with no risk to myself at all, and just pure profit from selling at those markets (or actually, more likely very little profit because everyone would be doing it as well). The region trading market would simply collapse. The economy would go to hell.

Mission runners would never have to worry about breaking out their fully officer or faction fit T3's to run missions, or BS's or whatever since there is never a possibility of being ganked by someone else... High sec mining would essentially be reduced to all the BOTs connecting the moment the refresh occurs and all ore being mined out in a matter or a few hours, since no one could can flip them anymore.....

 

[TheVrolok]

Neutrons in the highs, Mag Stabs in the lows (plus a damage control), sensor booster, point, and web in the mids. It was set up for an offline pos bash in a wormhole, and I just kept that setup since it was a throwaway ship.

I did it a couple months ago, so it is probably about 100 kills back, even so I understand why you would have 3 on the kill. I have the same all the time, where we have a bunch of unnecessary kill-mail whores. I am one myself, so I don't mind others whoring a kill.

I only asked because you have 2 Hulk kills on your KB, neither of which are solo kills, and you have no Thorax losses in high sec systems on your KB. Maybe you didn't post the kill/loss mails? T1 fit Thorax? I'm somewhat surprised it survived to solo a hulk, though I don't fit any tank whatsoever to my throw away high sec hulk gank cruisers.

 

[Anteaus]

No, he is saying the revenue from ganking highsec care-bears, traders, and mission runners will affect the free-market. If I could be flagged as no-pvp, I would be transporting billions of isk worth of gear between Jita and the other region trading hubs (as well as the jump-off points to null). And I could easily do that in just a T1 industrial, with no risk to myself at all, and just pure profit from selling at those markets (or actually, more likely very little profit because everyone would be doing it as well). The region trading market would simply collapse. The economy would go to hell.

Mission runners would never have to worry about breaking out their fully officer or faction fit T3's to run missions, or BS's or whatever since there is never a possibility of being ganked by someone else... High sec mining would essentially be reduced to all the BOTs connecting the moment the refresh occurs and all ore being mined out in a matter or a few hours, since no one could can flip them anymore.....

You're analysis operates on the assumptions that ganking in 1.0 space is as prevelant as ganking in 0.0 space. Very little ganking occurs here in general because it is often not worth the price of concorde hitting back. Do you sit around jita scanning cargo all day long? The market would be just like it always is. If you sitting in 0.0 space with the spoils of war, your still gonna have to get it to jita, so your "easy mode" example doesn't play well.

Second, mission running is still financially more advantageous in lowsec thus anyone driving around ships of any real consequence won't be grinding high sec.

Third, no one is popping the bots as it is. Hulkageddon will soon be in action, which is what the whole premise of the discussion was. As a hulk driver and pro miner, I dislike the idea that i have to avoid using my ship in february in high sec just because someone thought it was funny to declare war on people like me (hulk/orca drivers) who just want to play in peace.

The flagging would only be used in high level systems where players who wanted to focus on market and industrial elements of the game could do just that, and lay off the combat aspect of the game. After all, isn't industry a marketed feature?

Anyways, this subject was beaten to death already so this will be my only answer to you. You're welcome to read the various posts already made on this subject. My opinions are well established. You're one of the players that I noted would considered this idea blasphemy.

 

[TheVrolok]

... snip ...

You would like to mine without worry, but instituting flagging is contrary to everything EVE is.

 

[Red Storm]

The only change that's needed IMHO is the removal of insurance payout for suicide ganking, as it just doesn't make any sense. The risk would still be there, there's just slightly more cost for the ganker, and it wouldn't change ganking for super expensive loot, but it might have a positive effect on the other types of high sec "grief ganking." As for a more radical change to solve another problem (low sec lacking population) how's this idea sound...

Enable Concord in low sec at stations and gates, but no concord protection anywhere else (belts, planets, empty space, missions, etc.) Why? This will bring a lot more people into low sec. Let's be real, nobody likes a gate camp, it's a pretty lame form of pvp, and it is what keeps so many players in the "safer" high sec. However, if people wanted to actually partake in the better rewards present in low sec systems, then they still have to leave the safety of gates and stations and venture out to where anything goes.

If they really wanted to boost low sec's population that's what they should do IMHO. I, however, am not an expert on the matter so I welcome any flames/comments on my idea.

 

[Anteaus]

The only change that's needed IMHO is the removal of insurance payout for suicide ganking, as it just doesn't make any sense. The risk would still be there, there's just slightly more cost for the ganker, and it wouldn't change ganking for super expensive loot, but it might have a positive effect on the other types of high sec "grief ganking." As for a more radical change to solve another problem (low sec lacking population) how's this idea sound...

Enable Concord in low sec at stations and gates, but no concord protection anywhere else (belts, planets, empty space, missions, etc.) Why? This will bring a lot more people into low sec. Let's be real, nobody likes a gate camp, it's a pretty lame form of pvp, and it is what keeps so many players in the "safer" high sec. However, if people wanted to actually partake in the better rewards present in low sec systems, then they still have to leave the safety of gates and stations and venture out to where anything goes.

If they really wanted to boost low sec's population that's what they should do IMHO. I, however, am not an expert on the matter so I welcome any flames/comments on my idea.

This is a good idea. It can also be supported in lore, since jump gates would be protected in order to keep commerce rolling. I'm not sure how the game would be able to determine if your "suicide ganking" but in my experience insurance barely covers the cost of the ship as it is let alone fitted equipment unless your buying the stuff at low prices or making it yourself. The reason events like hulkageddon are so successful is because the reward payouts more than cover loses if your successful and insurance pay is just extra. That's whats so funny about it. Hulkageddon is nothing more than player sanctioned mass ganking/griefing. I may not like it but I do support the player base so if that's what the majority of people want then so be it.

 

[ichy]

Enable Concord in low sec at stations and gates, but no concord protection anywhere else (belts, planets, empty space, missions, etc.) Why? This will bring a lot more people into low sec. Let's be real, nobody likes a gate camp, it's a pretty lame form of pvp, and it is what keeps so many players in the "safer" high sec. However, if people wanted to actually partake in the better rewards present in low sec systems, then they still have to leave the safety of gates and stations and venture out to where anything goes.

Rather than having Concord in low-sec I think they'd be better off boosting the damage of the gate guns, at least in higher-security level low-sec systems (give 0.4 the strongest guns, make them a little weaker in 0.3, etc etc.)

 

[JSt0rm]

concord in low sec lol go away. Eve on easy mode is 1.0 to .5 deal with it.

 

[ichy]

Finally started running invention jobs last night, but I've realized that they're not going to be the money maker that I hoped they'd be. Looks like my main use for my alt will be placing buy orders for cheap salvage all over 0.0, and picking it up when I get nice big stashes to haul back to high-sec.

 

[Martimus]

I only asked because you have 2 Hulk kills on your KB, neither of which are solo kills, and you have no Thorax losses in high sec systems on your KB. Maybe you didn't post the kill/loss mails? T1 fit Thorax? I'm somewhat surprised it survived to solo a hulk, though I don't fit any tank whatsoever to my throw away high sec hulk gank cruisers.

I looked back through and realized you were right. I forgot that I had another person from my corp come with me, because he wanted to try out suicide ganking too. So it was indeed two thoraxes. I was just surprised because by the time CONCORD showed up to the belt, the hulk was long dead. I expected a more immediate reaction based on the things I was hearing about what you need to suicide ships in high-sec. Maybe that is more for the gates where CONCORD is more likely to hang out without having to warp.

It was fit with T2 blasters and T2 mag stabs. It wasn't that cheap I guess, but I was doing it not for financial gains but to just try it out. I believe that in EFT it had somewhere between 500 and 650 DPS. I remember thinking that it was close to the DPS of my standard gank Brutix fit.

It was a lot of fun though. I guess I feel a little bad about the victim, but it was somewhat of a rush to race against time to kill him before I died myself. I haven't found another highsec wormhole that gave me that opportunity since though (although I haven't really looked to be honest).

This was the kill: http://boss.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7964431 (I can't access my killboard from work)

I don't post NPC losses on the killboard, which includes concord. If the Hulk shot back at me, then it would have been posted.

EDIT: I just noticed that it was a 0.5 system and not a 0.9 system. I know it was heavily populated since it was so close to Jita (I think 6 jumps), and I assumed the security rating was higher. I guess that makes more sense now why it took them a while to show up.

 

[Ross Ridge]

I was just surprised because by the time CONCORD showed up to the belt, the hulk was long dead. I expected a more immediate reaction based on the things I was hearing about what you need to suicide ships in high-sec. Maybe that is more for the gates where CONCORD is more likely to hang out without having to warp.

The time it takes CONCORD to respond varies according the security status of the system. I think it's something like almost instantly in 1.0 and 15 seconds in 0.5, though apparently it can vary a bit as the formula takes in to account things like ship size and player security status. Gates (and stations) have the same sentry guns that you see in low-sec, so an untanked cruiser might end up dying to them before CONCORD arrives. While it's not too hard to avoid a gate where CONCORD has already been spawned by previous criminal activity, most gates in high-sec have faction navies patrolling, though they don't seem to respond immediately. And of course once you get a global criminal countdown you're open season for any player in the area that wants to get a cheap kill.

 

[TheVrolok]

... snip ...

Ah yeah, that sounds about right. I only T1 fit my gank omen/ruppie and probably get half your dps out of it, but definitely would need at least 2 people for a kill, 3 for a sure thing. It's not about the isk loss, because even a T2 fit cruiser is still pretty cheap .. it's just for the fun. I don't pirate often, but I do enjoy being a PITA for AFK/macro miners.

 

[Fallen Kell]

You're analysis operates on the assumptions that ganking in 1.0 space is as prevelant as ganking in 0.0 space. Very little ganking occurs here in general because it is often not worth the price of concorde hitting back. Do you sit around jita scanning cargo all day long? The market would be just like it always is. If you sitting in 0.0 space with the spoils of war, your still gonna have to get it to jita, so your "easy mode" example doesn't play well.

Second, mission running is still financially more advantageous in lowsec thus anyone driving around ships of any real consequence won't be grinding high sec.

Third, no one is popping the bots as it is. Hulkageddon will soon be in action, which is what the whole premise of the discussion was. As a hulk driver and pro miner, I dislike the idea that i have to avoid using my ship in february in high sec just because someone thought it was funny to declare war on people like me (hulk/orca drivers) who just want to play in peace.

The flagging would only be used in high level systems where players who wanted to focus on market and industrial elements of the game could do just that, and lay off the combat aspect of the game. After all, isn't industry a marketed feature?

Anyways, this subject was beaten to death already so this will be my only answer to you. You're welcome to read the various posts already made on this subject. My opinions are well established. You're one of the players that I noted would considered this idea blasphemy.

Its not that I consider it blasphemy. In fact, this is exactly how I make most of my isk in the game. So I know exactly the risks involved and gank rates involved in high-sec. My point was the reason the gank rates are the way they are is due to the ammount of isk being carried by the person and how much firepower it would take to bring it down. The reason why freighters are expensive (asside from material costs) is because they have a hell of a tank on them, so much so that the costs to blow one up in high sec is extremely high.

A mammoth can carry about 30k m^3 (more if using containers), but has next to no tank if you configure it that way. A single T1 BS fit to kill that mammoth in 1 shot can easily be made and cost the player only 70-80m isk. A mammoth full of faction ammor and/or probes and/or T2 drones can easily, easily carry billions of isk worth of gear, and be able to move it 10 times faster than a freighter can. You don't see people doing that because of how easy it is to blow those ships up. But as I said, if you do add that "no-pvp" flag, you will see tons of people doing that.

And yes, there are tons of people who sit in jita and cargo scan industrial ships as they leave Jita 4-4, or as then leave from the Jita system (people sitting on the Perimiter<->Jita gate all day long scanning ships). They relay the information to people sitting on the other side of gates in some of the lower sec high-sec systems, like the 0.5 system between Jita and Amarr or the 0.5 between Jita and Dodixie, for the gank fit ships to be on a lookout for a badger II piloted by IdiotsRUs and to blow it up if they see it because he has 220m isk worth of gear in it (with a rough 1/2 loss due to blowing it up, that is still a 20-30m profit after the loss of the BS).