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Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,164
515
126
Sleeper damage is omni-damage, and same with their resists, so you might as well use whatever damage type you do the most damage with (since it doesn't matter otherwise), and you need to setup your tank as an omni-tank. With the recent changes to Sleepers (turning on their NOS/Neut effects), if you don't fly Caldari ships, you won't survive running sites. You can still get by in a drake solo for C3 wormhole sites as long as there is no wormhole effect which reduces shield resists, or increases weapon damage.

Most wormholes do not have effects in them, but you should ALWAYS lookup the wormhole on one of the many websites like dot-lan or wormhole thingy, etc., to check its status.

I've been living in a C4 wormhole for the last 6 months or so now, so I have a bit of experience with them. ALWAYS keep d-scan open and watching it. Even if you are in a normal site, you can be scanned down without probes as the ship scanner can see them, and someone who is skilled with d-scan and the ship scanner can find you pretty quickly without popping probes, so you can have a few recon and covert ops ships drop on you at any given time, so just be wary.

It is a lot of fun, but you need to go in there pretty much expecting to lose the ship(s) you take in with you. I have been pretty fortunate with my luck, but I know others have not been in my corp. If you want to run C4 sites, you will need at least 3 remote-repping tengus. You "can" run some select sites with just a tengu and a drake, but the drake will be warping in/out (since its tank will not hold very long), and you will need to have the "stars align", so to speak, to break the sleeper remote-rep chains (you will have to basically switch targets a lot and get the sleepers to spread their remote reps across multiple ships and then you can sometimes pop one of the reppers by quickly concentrating fire on it, and you may need to overload your launchers so keep some nanite paste around). Really, if you don't have 3 tengus or equivalent dps (5 T2 heavy missile launchers, scourge fury and/or precision missiles, with 3 caldari navy balistic control systems, and caldari offensive systems V), you won't be able to break the sleeper tanks. I think if you have 5 rr drakes with a logi ship you will be fine as well.

People in the past were able to use legions, but now with the nos/neuts you just are not cap stable enough (or lose too much dps) to make them worth while to fly. Armor tanking can still be done, but you will typically need 2 logistic ships if you want to really do it (with the logistic ships needing to be 2 gaurdians with 1 energy transfer going to each ship (since they get a bonus for energy transfer in that it transfers more energy than it takes to power/activate the energy transfer array), and then armor reps on the ships that need it).
 
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ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
Fallen Kell:

Thank you for that explanation. I knew almost nothing about W-Space (I'd really only PvPd in there) so a quick intro to the basics was useful.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,490
157
106
I used to run it in a RR Domi and RR Scorpion. We used the Scorpion to jam the biggest DPS, and the domi for DPS. It wasn't the best setup, because I had to recall drones every 60 seconds or so when the sleepers switched damage to the drones, but it worked for C3 sites at least. It ran better when we had an Abbadon running the sites with us, but I can only just now fly a T2 fit Abbadon, and back them the Domi was the only BS I could really fly effectively.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
I ran a C2 radar site solo this evening, quite doable in a Drake. It wasn't as lucrative as I hoped it would be (from what I understand people were making a couple hundred million off of C2 sites back when they first appeared) but still decent isk. Corp was pretty quiet this evening so I couldn't get any assistance. I need to get my alt to the point where he can fly a Drake, extra DPS would make that mission much quicker.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,490
157
106
I didn't log on yesterday, and I doubt I will today either (I have a date).

I have considered moving into a wormhole for a week. It might be a fun experience. I do have an extra medium Amarr POS I could put up, and I would just need to get a ship maintenance bay and a corporate hangar to go with it. I guess I could fit some guns on it as well, but I doubt I will be arming it like I do my Cadmium moons.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
Yeah, the corp was pretty quiet last night.

Now that I know I can run C2 sites solo I'm going to start working on completing them as quickly as possible. The biggest hassle I found was just that it took a long time to find a radar site among all the ladar and grav signatures.
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,164
515
126
There really isn't that much money in C2's to be honest. Maybe 20-25mill for anomalies, and around 45-60mill at a radar. Radar sites are pretty rare. C3 sites will get you around 45-60mill at the anomalies (depending on rate of nano-ribbon salvage drops). A C3 radar site will get you around 80-100mill. C4 anomalies are around 60-90mill each, sometimes more, and a radar site can sometimes get up to 300million (at least one of ours did, might have been a rarity but we have only seen 2 C4 radar sites in the 6 months).

As for the neuting/nos, you need to be cap stable at about 50% for C3 sites and 57% for C4. If you are less than that, you risk getting capped out. The C4 figure is also assuming multiple ships in your fleet with the neuting/nos switching targets after a while. If you are attempting to solo the C4 you need to be at about 63-65% cap stable....
 
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Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,490
157
106
Nice kill. Don't see many officer fittings in killmails unless they are on supercapitals.

Although we did have a member that had a 20B ISK Palladin that was almost entirely officer fit. He lost it, but luckily he took the officer lasers off that day and it was only worth maybe 6-7B ISK.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
Nice kill. Don't see many officer fittings in killmails unless they are on supercapitals.

Although we did have a member that had a 20B ISK Palladin that was almost entirely officer fit. He lost it, but luckily he took the officer lasers off that day and it was only worth maybe 6-7B ISK.

The guy who lost the Mael is basically an idiot, and he's pretty bad to boot. I was cloaked up until the 2 Maels and Phoon landed so I imagine they just thought we'd never have the DPS to break their tanks - and to be honest, we didn't without a pilgrim/curse. Just lucky I happened to have a pilgrim around.
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,164
515
126
The guy who lost the Mael is basically an idiot, and he's pretty bad to boot. I was cloaked up until the 2 Maels and Phoon landed so I imagine they just thought we'd never have the DPS to break their tanks - and to be honest, we didn't without a pilgrim/curse. Just lucky I happened to have a pilgrim around.

Yeah, pilgrims are the bane to anything that relies on cap for a tank (like a Maelstrom). And that pilgrim should have immediately been named primary the moment you uncloaked.

I was in a highsec war a while back and we managed to bait a group out away from stations. They were running a mission and we probbed them down, but we actually weren't trying to kill their mission ships (since they were "war" fit T1/T2 crap), we wanted their T2 PvP ships. So I warped into their mission in a hurricane and blew up a couple wrecks/loot and warped out making sure they saw what way I went (they were too far away to get to me). We also made sure they saw the other pilot with me who probed them down in a covert-op ship.

We jumpped thru the gate to the next system over where the covert-op pilot had monster PvP proteus docked up .

Anyway, we wait, and have another pilot get into the area and scout what they were doing. They have 5 pilots, and finally fleeted up and formed up, 2 curses, a hurricane, a harbinger, and a buzzard. So I warp to the other side of the gate from their system and just sit there in the hurricane. Out other pilot is in a falcon, and is sitting cloaked off the other side of the gate I am just sitting at. Their whole group warps to that side of the gate and waits. They finally send the buzzard thru, and he sits staying cloaked and must have told the rest of them that I was sitting there on the gate. After another minute or two, they all jump to the system we are in. They immediately engage, and once they had, our proteus starts warping in. Now I had a pretty decent tank since I knew I was going to be bait (with 2 1600 plates and passive resists). And I start immediately pounding away at one of the curses. Our falcon then jumps in and starts jamming the hell out of the second curse and the even puts jams on the cane and harbinger. I put warp scrams on the curse I was hitting and the hurricane. My armor is slowly going down, but I also had almost finished the tank on the curse, and then our proteus shows up and litterally pops the second curse in 2 shots. He then hits the one I had been working on and finishes him off, and then the 3 of us combined onto their cane and we pop him as well. The harby manage to jump thru the gate once he saw the two curses pop, and we never saw the buzzard decloak, but he soon was no longer in local. I had about 8% armor left, but survived. It was a fun outing that day since those guys had been playing crap station games with us for 2 weeks with no one being able to kill anyone, and just being real jerks....
 
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TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
Bah, just lost a pilgrim to a harbi ... solo. MFer dropped 5 EC-300's and got the first, and second jam cycles off. Game over for me. Have I mentioned how I hate ECM, and especially ECM drones? Takes "skill" and "know how" right out of the equation, AND it's not even a fun way to lose a ship, you just sit there.

19.17% chance to jam for 5 300's per cycle, and it got me both times. Unlucky dice roll I suppose.
 
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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Bah, just lost a pilgrim to a harbi ... solo. MFer dropped 5 EC-300's and got the first, and second jam cycles off. Game over for me. Have I mentioned how I hate ECM, and especially ECM drones? Takes "skill" and "know how" right out of the equation, AND it's not even a fun way to lose a ship, you just sit there.

19.17% chance to jam for 5 300's per cycle, and it got me both times. Unlucky dice roll I suppose.

Or he called them back and forth till they jammed you out :sneaky:
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,490
157
106
Bah, just lost a pilgrim to a harbi ... solo. MFer dropped 5 EC-300's and got the first, and second jam cycles off. Game over for me. Have I mentioned how I hate ECM, and especially ECM drones? Takes "skill" and "know how" right out of the equation, AND it's not even a fun way to lose a ship, you just sit there.

19.17% chance to jam for 5 300's per cycle, and it got me both times. Unlucky dice roll I suppose.

Yeah. I always kill the drones first in my pilgrim, then go to the target ship. The Harbi is the exact ship I usually try to hunt in my Pilgrim when I go out alone infact (although I would love to find a solo Absolution!) It definitely sucks that he managed to jam you so quickly, but such is the luck of this game.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
Yeah. I always kill the drones first in my pilgrim, then go to the target ship. The Harbi is the exact ship I usually try to hunt in my Pilgrim when I go out alone infact (although I would love to find a solo Absolution!) It definitely sucks that he managed to jam you so quickly, but such is the luck of this game.

Yep. I know the guy who got me's MO pretty well, so I dropped Hammers to get him to engage, then recalled them as soon as he red boxed, and threw out my warriors (to combat the 300's I knew he'd drop). Unfortunately, his 300's got on me before I got his drones locked to engage 'em. I was definitely bummed I went down, but like you said, that's the luck of the game sometimes, and 9/10 (well, maybe 7-8/10) times I do the same engagement, I'd probably come out ahead. C'est la vie. Ships are made to be lost.


Also, fun small little fight at a POS later on in the night made up for it.

http://www.minmatar-militia.org/kb/?a=kill_related&kll_id=186722

Battle report is a bit messed up, as they tend to be, the numbers were actually damned near even if you check the actual timestamps, but a pretty solid engagement. I enjoy a good small limited cap skirmish. I was triple boxing, though, which actually made it a bit more exciting, but now I'm really jonesing for a third monitor. 1 client per monitor would be winsauce. Complete waste of money, perhaps, but winsauce.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
Bah, just lost a pilgrim to a harbi ... solo. MFer dropped 5 EC-300's and got the first, and second jam cycles off. Game over for me. Have I mentioned how I hate ECM, and especially ECM drones? Takes "skill" and "know how" right out of the equation, AND it's not even a fun way to lose a ship, you just sit there.

19.17% chance to jam for 5 300's per cycle, and it got me both times. Unlucky dice roll I suppose.

ECM is no different than Scram's, Web's, Damp's ect.
It's part of EWAR.

Except in the amount of tears ECM can provoke, it seems.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
ECM is no different than Scram's, Web's, Damp's ect.
It's part of EWAR.

Except in the amount of tears ECM can provoke, it seems.

The tears are greater because ECM is significantly more powerful than scrams, webs, damps, TDs, neuts, etc. ECM shuts down a ship 100%, nothing you can do about it other than sit out the jam cycle and hope you don't get jammed again. Other forms of EWAR are far, far more defensible. The only defense against EWAR is ECCM, and that's not very realistic in many circumstances. To say that it's no different is a pretty big understatement.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
The tears are greater because ECM is significantly more powerful than scrams, webs, damps, TDs, neuts, etc. ECM shuts down a ship 100%, nothing you can do about it other than sit out the jam cycle and hope you don't get jammed again. Other forms of EWAR are far, far more defensible. The only defense against EWAR is ECCM, and that's not very realistic in many circumstances. To say that it's no different is a pretty big understatement.

ECM dosn't prevent you from warping away...nice try though.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
ECM dosn't prevent you from warping away...nice try though.

Being a bit pedantic, aren't we? Of course you may be able to escape if you've got enough speed to get out of point range, or if they don't carry a point, etc. What I was saying, which should be fairly clear, is that all else being equal, ECM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all other forms of EWAR. Look at it this way, 2 identically fit ships with identically skilled pilots, with the exception of one ship fitting a rack of EC-300's/600's and the other not. Those drones (even the lights) can make an even fight, nearly entirely lopsided by their own virtue. That's the power of ECM that other EWAR methods don't have.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Being a bit pedantic, aren't we? Of course you may be able to escape if you've got enough speed to get out of point range, or if they don't carry a point, etc. What I was saying, which should be fairly clear, is that all else being equal, ECM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all other forms of EWAR. Look at it this way, 2 identically fit ships with identically skilled pilots, with the exception of one ship fitting a rack of EC-300's/600's and the other not. Those drones (even the lights) can make an even fight, nearly entirely lopsided by their own virtue. That's the power of ECM that other EWAR methods don't have.

Thats also the reason caldari have no secondary ewar.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
Thats also the reason caldari have no secondary ewar.

Yep. I think that's proof of the point in and of itself. Obviously I'm not saying ECM should be taken out of the game, or even heavily nerfed, but it's pretty lopsidedly powerful.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,490
157
106
I looked at about half the fits, but they don't seem too bad. Sure there are a few that are questionable, especially the local repped typhoon when it was a fleet that was going to rely on the triaged carrier for reps, but they fits looked at least reasonable. I probably would have used less resist mods and more damage mods in the lows, but I didn't see any outward fail fits. (again I only looked at about half the fits, and since you obviously face raped them they must have been doing something very wrong).
 
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