F-22 is suck

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SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Loralon
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: charrison
It is a terribly complex system. I am not surprised that it still has issues. That being said, once the kinks get worked out, nothing will be able to match it.

For $153M, you can get 5 Su-30MKI's, which will more than match a singe F-22.
Knowing some people who work at LMCO, the company is very wasteful, and a lot of people get paid to do little or no work.

So should we buy Su-30s instead?

Are they stealthy? Can they cruise at Mach 1 without afterburners? We also need to train more pilots if we buy Su-30s instead, I wonder if we can outsource to India...

They are not stealthy. But they have maneuverability advantages. I am not saying F-22 isn't better than Su-30, but it's not 5x better, but is 5x more expensive, and it's not even here yet.

Can 5 SU-30s really take down a single F-22? What about the stealth feature, wouldn't the F-22 see the 5 SU-30s before they see him? And he can just launch AMRAAMS and run away?

I guess we'll see when US uses F-22 in training with the Indians Su-30MKI's. I guess it depends on the specific situation.
The better question is can 5 Su-30's execute the types of missions that we have in reality better than a single F-22. The countries whose airforces can challenge our F-15's also happen to be nuclear powers. So while theoretically possible that we would face them in an air superiority battle, in reality that could provoke a nuclear response, so it probably will not be something that we would actually do.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Loralon
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: charrison
It is a terribly complex system. I am not surprised that it still has issues. That being said, once the kinks get worked out, nothing will be able to match it.

For $153M, you can get 5 Su-30MKI's, which will more than match a singe F-22.
Knowing some people who work at LMCO, the company is very wasteful, and a lot of people get paid to do little or no work.

So should we buy Su-30s instead?

Are they stealthy? Can they cruise at Mach 1 without afterburners? We also need to train more pilots if we buy Su-30s instead, I wonder if we can outsource to India...

They are not stealthy. But they have maneuverability advantages. I am not saying F-22 isn't better than Su-30, but it's not 5x better, but is 5x more expensive, and it's not even here yet.

Can 5 SU-30s really take down a single F-22? What about the stealth feature, wouldn't the F-22 see the 5 SU-30s before they see him? And he can just launch AMRAAMS and run away?

more like 4 or less, considering pilots/maintenance/fuel costs would go way up having so many.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Grumman X-29, from back in 1982

Yep, Russian advanced design - been there, done that.

Actually watched some of the flight test video of the wing tips during flight.
They set up a resonate torque & counter-torque twisting motion that attempts to disrupt flight.
It took computer commands that anticipated when the twist would happen and calculate the
expected deflection and would input the anti-motion into the filght controls to prevent the wings
from being ripped off. I doubt that Russia could produce the same configutation and not have that
become a source of catostrophic failure. Sometime they show repeats of it on Discovery.
 

SONYFX

Senior member
May 14, 2003
403
0
0
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Perhaps the smarttest thing to do today would to revive the F-15 line and use the engine technology
that is designed for the F-22 to bring that airframe up to date. It has a flawless combat history.
F-15 has NEVER suffered a loss to any other combat aircraft - a perfect kill ratio.
You can get 3 new F-15 for the price of a single F-22, and it is a proven performance vehicle.




Trying to get me pulled back into active duty?:Q

The Eagle was a dream to fly in and it was fun taking on F4's and Mirages during training exercises. :evil:
Never had a chance to eat a Tomcat though.

F-15 is owned by SU-30MMK.

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: SONYFX
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Perhaps the smarttest thing to do today would to revive the F-15 line and use the engine technology
that is designed for the F-22 to bring that airframe up to date. It has a flawless combat history.
F-15 has NEVER suffered a loss to any other combat aircraft - a perfect kill ratio.
You can get 3 new F-15 for the price of a single F-22, and it is a proven performance vehicle.




Trying to get me pulled back into active duty?:Q

The Eagle was a dream to fly in and it was fun taking on F4's and Mirages during training exercises. :evil:
Never had a chance to eat a Tomcat though.

F-15 is owned by SU-30MMK.

One - They need to have pilots that can fly. Running into a 4 engine prop job does not speak well for training.
Two - Most fighter bombers are intended for jsut that. They are not a true air superiority fighter.
Three - Avionics are probably at least 1 generation behind use.

 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Grumman X-29, from back in 1982

Yep, Russian advanced design - been there, done that.

Actually watched some of the flight test video of the wing tips during flight.
They set up a resonate torque & counter-torque twisting motion that attempts to disrupt flight.
It took computer commands that anticipated when the twist would happen and calculate the
expected deflection and would input the anti-motion into the filght controls to prevent the wings
from being ripped off. I doubt that Russia could produce the same configutation and not have that
become a source of catostrophic failure. Sometime they show repeats of it on Discovery.

The key to all this is the use of up to 90 percent composite materials in the wing?s structure. Sukhoi has made a major breakthrough in the use of advanced composites in the S-37's wing, and these have proven able to cope with the considerable bending and structural loading on this type of wing during close-in maneuvering across a wide speed range.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
64
91
I thought that the reason that the US and Israel were so supperior was because of the level of training our pilots went through. The nations we are likely to face don't have the money to spend on fuel for flight time. I say we ax the f22 and just adapt the jsf to Air Force missions.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
"The key to all this is the use of up to 90 percent composite materials in the wing?s structure. Sukhoi has made a major breakthrough in the use of advanced composites in the S-37's wing, and these have proven able to cope with the considerable bending and structural loading on this type of wing during close-in maneuvering across a wide speed range."

Again, X-29 - Been there, done that

<CLIP's>
The concepts and technologies the fighter-size X-29 explored were the use of advanced composites in aircraft construction; variable camber wing surfaces; the unique forward-swept wing and its thin supercritical airfoil; strake flaps; close-coupled canards; and a computerized fly-by-wire flight control system to maintain control of the otherwise unstable aircraft.


Construction of the X-29's thin supercritical wing was made possible because of its composite construction. State-of-the-art composites permit aeroelastic tailoring, which allows the wing some bending but limits twisting and eliminates structural divergence within the flight envelope (i.e., deformation of the wing or breaking off in flight).


The particular forward swept wing, close-coupled canard design used on the X-29 was unstable. The X-29's flight control system compensated for this instability by sensing flight conditions such as attitude and speed, and through computer processing, continually adjusted the control surfaces with up to 40 commands each second. This arrangement was made to reduce drag. Conventionally configured aircraft achieved stability by balancing lift loads on the wing with opposing downward loads on the tail at the cost of drag. The X-29 avoided this drag penalty through its relaxed static stability.
Each of the three digital flight control computers had an analog backup. If one of the digital computers failed, the remaining two took over. If two of the digital computers failed, the flight control system switched to the analog mode. If one of the analog computers failed, the two remaining analog computers took over. The risk of total systems failure was equivalent in the X-29 to the risk of mechanical failure in a conventional system.
======================================================================
Now back to Earth - I seriously doubt that the Russian Technology of Composite Structures is even a ghost of what
our Composite capability is. Russia has a tendancy to use a tank when a sports cou[pe is the reliable vehicle.
Yes some of their planes have done some pretty nifty manouvers - in air shows, but few of their pilots and the pilots of the
nations that would be flying these pieces of equipment would be able to do much more that plow it into the dirt ball.

I can pretty much say with confidence of not having a conflict with an 'Aledged Composite Expert' that you have no
idea of the sophistication of our Composite development for our Aerospace Applications, how it is done, how it is
designed and what it is capable of doing. There is even a realm of 'Aeroelastic Tailoring' where depending on the
dynamic overpressures, surfaces that change shape - depending on loading - to modify the envelope they fly in.

We also have equipment that can see a wire, like a phone line, from 7 miles out and adjust course to miss them,
even though the pilot doesn't even know that they are there. We have the ability to lock onto a target in flight
before the selected target even gets a blip on it's radar to tell them that there is something else even around.
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
I was looking at the timeline for the f-22's development and the weird thing is that the first test model was built in only 3 years and the engine was built in only 5 years. But after that, progress slowed to a snail's pace and costs went up.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
"The key to all this is the use of up to 90 percent composite materials in the wing?s structure. Sukhoi has made a major breakthrough in the use of advanced composites in the S-37's wing, and these have proven able to cope with the considerable bending and structural loading on this type of wing during close-in maneuvering across a wide speed range."

Again, X-29 - Been there, done that

<CLIP's>
The concepts and technologies the fighter-size X-29 explored were the use of advanced composites in aircraft construction; variable camber wing surfaces; the unique forward-swept wing and its thin supercritical airfoil; strake flaps; close-coupled canards; and a computerized fly-by-wire flight control system to maintain control of the otherwise unstable aircraft.


Construction of the X-29's thin supercritical wing was made possible because of its composite construction. State-of-the-art composites permit aeroelastic tailoring, which allows the wing some bending but limits twisting and eliminates structural divergence within the flight envelope (i.e., deformation of the wing or breaking off in flight).


The particular forward swept wing, close-coupled canard design used on the X-29 was unstable. The X-29's flight control system compensated for this instability by sensing flight conditions such as attitude and speed, and through computer processing, continually adjusted the control surfaces with up to 40 commands each second. This arrangement was made to reduce drag. Conventionally configured aircraft achieved stability by balancing lift loads on the wing with opposing downward loads on the tail at the cost of drag. The X-29 avoided this drag penalty through its relaxed static stability.
Each of the three digital flight control computers had an analog backup. If one of the digital computers failed, the remaining two took over. If two of the digital computers failed, the flight control system switched to the analog mode. If one of the analog computers failed, the two remaining analog computers took over. The risk of total systems failure was equivalent in the X-29 to the risk of mechanical failure in a conventional system.
======================================================================
Now back to Earth - I seriously doubt that the Russian Technology of Composite Structures is even a ghost of what
our Composite capability is. Russia has a tendancy to use a tank when a sports cou[pe is the reliable vehicle.
Yes some of their planes have done some pretty nifty manouvers - in air shows, but few of their pilots and the pilots of the
nations that would be flying these pieces of equipment would be able to do much more that plow it into the dirt ball.

I can pretty much say with confidence of not having a conflict with an 'Aledged Composite Expert' that you have no
idea of the sophistication of our Composite development for our Aerospace Applications, how it is done, how it is
designed and what it is capable of doing. There is even a realm of 'Aeroelastic Tailoring' where depending on the
dynamic overpressures, surfaces that change shape - depending on loading - to modify the envelope they fly in.

We also have equipment that can see a wire, like a phone line, from 7 miles out and adjust course to miss them,
even though the pilot doesn't even know that they are there. We have the ability to lock onto a target in flight
before the selected target even gets a blip on it's radar to tell them that there is something else even around.


Keep It Simple, Stupid (KISS). Maybe then the software won't crash after 2.5 hrs. I am not arguing whether composites here or there are better, but there was quite a lot of composite material research in USSR prior to the cold war, and having logger 120 test flight, I am guessing they have sufficiently good composite materials. The radar on the Su-30 is on par with or superior to the F-15, and it has a rearfacing radar to launch missiles backwards.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,674
6,246
126
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
"The key to all this is the use of up to 90 percent composite materials in the wing?s structure. Sukhoi has made a major breakthrough in the use of advanced composites in the S-37's wing, and these have proven able to cope with the considerable bending and structural loading on this type of wing during close-in maneuvering across a wide speed range."

Again, X-29 - Been there, done that

<CLIP's>
The concepts and technologies the fighter-size X-29 explored were the use of advanced composites in aircraft construction; variable camber wing surfaces; the unique forward-swept wing and its thin supercritical airfoil; strake flaps; close-coupled canards; and a computerized fly-by-wire flight control system to maintain control of the otherwise unstable aircraft.


Construction of the X-29's thin supercritical wing was made possible because of its composite construction. State-of-the-art composites permit aeroelastic tailoring, which allows the wing some bending but limits twisting and eliminates structural divergence within the flight envelope (i.e., deformation of the wing or breaking off in flight).


The particular forward swept wing, close-coupled canard design used on the X-29 was unstable. The X-29's flight control system compensated for this instability by sensing flight conditions such as attitude and speed, and through computer processing, continually adjusted the control surfaces with up to 40 commands each second. This arrangement was made to reduce drag. Conventionally configured aircraft achieved stability by balancing lift loads on the wing with opposing downward loads on the tail at the cost of drag. The X-29 avoided this drag penalty through its relaxed static stability.
Each of the three digital flight control computers had an analog backup. If one of the digital computers failed, the remaining two took over. If two of the digital computers failed, the flight control system switched to the analog mode. If one of the analog computers failed, the two remaining analog computers took over. The risk of total systems failure was equivalent in the X-29 to the risk of mechanical failure in a conventional system.
======================================================================
Now back to Earth - I seriously doubt that the Russian Technology of Composite Structures is even a ghost of what
our Composite capability is. Russia has a tendancy to use a tank when a sports cou[pe is the reliable vehicle.
Yes some of their planes have done some pretty nifty manouvers - in air shows, but few of their pilots and the pilots of the
nations that would be flying these pieces of equipment would be able to do much more that plow it into the dirt ball.

I can pretty much say with confidence of not having a conflict with an 'Aledged Composite Expert' that you have no
idea of the sophistication of our Composite development for our Aerospace Applications, how it is done, how it is
designed and what it is capable of doing. There is even a realm of 'Aeroelastic Tailoring' where depending on the
dynamic overpressures, surfaces that change shape - depending on loading - to modify the envelope they fly in.

We also have equipment that can see a wire, like a phone line, from 7 miles out and adjust course to miss them,
even though the pilot doesn't even know that they are there. We have the ability to lock onto a target in flight
before the selected target even gets a blip on it's radar to tell them that there is something else even around.

It's been 10+ years since work was done on that plane, new materials have undoubtedly come out since then. I would underestimate the technology of the USSR/Russia, they were clearly inferior in some ways, but superior in others.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
linkage

Good read on the capaiblies of the f-22 vs an upgraded f-15x. F-15x will not cost much less than the f-22 and will still have higher logistical footprint and reduced capabilities.
 

zillafurby

Banned
Mar 16, 2004
219
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
It is a terribly complex system. I am not surprised that it still has issues. That being said, once the kinks get worked out, nothing will be able to match it.

how about dressing in civvies and 'hit then run and hide/ mingle'. im sure the planes are quite ineffective against that.
 

zillafurby

Banned
Mar 16, 2004
219
0
0
Originally posted by: SONYFX
JSF is suck too.

-------------------------------

JSF's first flight pushed back

By Bob Cox

Star-Telegram Staff Writer

blah...


yeah like you know anything.

the jsf will be even better than the Harrier Jump Jet, which is cheap, local, maneuverable, kicks developing country butt, and is very reliable. we won 3 wars with it, one by ourselves against french mirage fighter jets.
 

zillafurby

Banned
Mar 16, 2004
219
0
0
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Perhaps the smarttest thing to do today would to revive the F-15 line and use the engine technology
that is designed for the F-22 to bring that airframe up to date. It has a flawless combat history.
F-15 has NEVER suffered a loss to any other combat aircraft - a perfect kill ratio.
You can get 3 new F-15 for the price of a single F-22, and it is a proven performance vehicle.




Trying to get me pulled back into active duty?:Q

The Eagle was a dream to fly in and it was fun taking on F4's and Mirages during training exercises. :evil:
Never had a chance to eat a Tomcat though.

didnt the indians kick butt recently in training?

also their kill ratio against alqaida flown boeings isnt so good is it?
 

Loralon

Member
Oct 10, 1999
132
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
linkage

Good read on the capaiblies of the f-22 vs an upgraded f-15x. F-15x will not cost much less than the f-22 and will still have higher logistical footprint and reduced capabilities.

Good find and interesting read. Of course the one remaining option would be to soldier on with the F-15, but I don't see how that's realistic.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Quick question -

Why update the F-15C ? We were producing the F-15E model as recently as 1998, and the production line
is still simi-functional, with a rate of about 2 a year, just to sustain a replacable reserve.

Sure it is a 2 place, but it has all the bells and whistles as of 2000, and needs only minor airframe mods
to bring the technology up to current capabilities. It is/was built in it same facility as the F/A-18 E & F's -
just across the aisle from where the F/A-18 C & D line was, same space as all those F-4's were made,
and the technology of composite construction for the F/A-18's would be afairly simple redesign.
The wing box metalic structure and cary-through with titanium and aluminum alloys is a easy nest for composite skins, it's already been evaluated.
Replacing the Taper-Lok pins with Hi-Loks is a known cost reduction in material and labor, and the Taper-Lok
does not lead itself to a composite friendly environment, but the Hi-Lok does.
Could save nearly a million $$ a copy in parts and labor with that fastener replacement alone.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: Loralon
Originally posted by: charrison
linkage

Good read on the capaiblies of the f-22 vs an upgraded f-15x. F-15x will not cost much less than the f-22 and will still have higher logistical footprint and reduced capabilities.

Good find and interesting read. Of course the one remaining option would be to soldier on with the F-15, but I don't see how that's realistic.

It's an academy student's research paper. Not saying it's valid or not, but it presents a very one sided arguement.
 

Sureshot324

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2003
3,370
0
71
What are the chances that there will actually be an air to air dogfight anywhere in the world in the next 50 years? For the US, investing in a new air superiority fighter is a huge waste of money imo.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,674
6,246
126
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Sandy -

I'm just a tiny bit knowledgable about Military Aviation. Trust me on this.

Well, you could be right, but 10 years is a long time.
 
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