Florida High School Shooting

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Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,972
793
136
All of this is a false narrative you've concocted

What false narrative? I said that teachers sacrificed themselves and that we use guards to protect us. Neither of these were false. Can you specify?

to justify your fragility and insecurities.

What are my insecurities? And I am fragile because I don't even lift bro.

I hope you strive to be a better person than what you depict here.

???

I thought there weren't many gun deaths and so legislating guns was foolish?

Why did you think that? Those are not my words.

Now there are so many gun-related incidents and deaths that we must do something and you think that something is adding more guns.

I think that while our nation has 300 million guns + the highest rate of mental illness, we should protect people. That is rational.

You've worked yourself into a paranoid tizzy.

Look, we both want the same thing: kids not getting killed at school. We disagree on methodology, but we want the same thing. We're pretty much bros at this point.
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,972
793
136
If any of the shooters believe they will survive they still go in resigned to the fact that they likely will not.

Many mass shooters commit suicide as soon as someone with a gun shows up. I don't know why. I can imagine that they want to kill as many people as possible and then kill themselves. Again, I don't know why. But in many cases, the shooting ends as soon as a good guy with a gun is on scene. Even if the good guy with the gun never fires it. I can't recall a single incident where a good guy with a gun has made a mass shooting worse. Why the resistance to letting good guys get training, certification, authority, and the ability to fight back? Is it a fear that protecting kids with guns somehow equates to opposition to gun control?
 

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,447
106
Many mass shooters commit suicide as soon as someone with a gun shows up. I don't know why. I can imagine that they want to kill as many people as possible and then kill themselves. Again, I don't know why. But in many cases, the shooting ends as soon as a good guy with a gun is on scene. Even if the good guy with the gun never fires it. I can't recall a single incident where a good guy with a gun has made a mass shooting worse. Why the resistance to letting good guys get training, certification, authority, and the ability to fight back? Is it a fear that protecting kids with guns somehow equates to opposition to gun control?
No, guns are dangerous even in the hands of trained people. Also, there is no way to know how someone will react in a live shooting incident especially in the case of people that aren't gun-ho (yes, a play on words).

This is a bullshit debate. Why the fu*k would you want IN AMERICA to have guns in schools? Guards in schools? How do you save people in churches? Night clubs? Outdoor concerts? What kind of country do you want to live in? Where everywhere people gather has armed guards? That's not a 1st world country. Do you want to live in a police state? The corruption and abuse would be uncontrollable. You might think you're at the top of the food chain and safe from a country like that but I assure you, the color of your eyes, the shape of your nose might be wrong... Well, good luck.

Or is it just the kids you want to protect from mass shootings? Fu*k everyone else!

Arming teachers doesn't solve ANYTHING!
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,972
793
136
No, guns are dangerous even in the hands of trained people. Also, there is no way to know how someone will react in a live shooting incident especially in the case of people that aren't gun-ho (yes, a play on words).

If guards are dangerous then why do you and I pay for them? I'm not going to argue that they are immune from accidents or screwups or freezing when they are needed. Those things all happen. Yet we all still pay for armed guards one way or the other. Whether it is our sports venues or our politicians or the people who pick up the money from Taco Bell and bring it to the bank. Our rich and powerful send their children to schools with armed guards. For millennia human beings have guarded important things with weapons. Are you going to argue that we should not have armed guards? Yes or no?

This is a bullshit debate. Why the fu*k would you want IN AMERICA to have guns in schools? Guards in schools? How do you save people in churches? Night clubs? Outdoor concerts? What kind of country do you want to live in?

Until you get rid of 300,000,000 guns, then yes, let's protect stuff by the best means possible. I don't want us to have to protect our kids. I don't want to worry about my kids getting hit crossing the street. I don't want to worry about my kid drowning in a pool, eating a poisonous plant, or falling off a roof. Just because I don't WANT to protect my kids from something that I should not have to doesn't mean I don't want them protected. Please guard my kids. I have 3 little boys and I want them to be protected. I can't do it by crying about how shitty my country is.

Where everywhere people gather has armed guards? That's not a 1st world country.

I'm pretty sure we have armed guards in every 1st world country. Can you name a country that does not have armed guards? It sucks that there are evil people. We must be allowed to defend ourselves from them. To argue against it is unbelievable.

Do you want to live in a police state? The corruption and abuse would be uncontrollable. You might think you're at the top of the food chain and safe from a country like that but I assure you, the color of your eyes, the shape of your nose might be wrong... Well, good luck.

No way. I generally mistrust cops. I'm totally with you on this. Cops have too much legal and political protection to do whatever they want and get away with it. That has nothing to do with allowing a teacher to get trained, certified, and approved to protect kids.


Or is it just the kids you want to protect from mass shootings? Fu*k everyone else!

I'm literally posting in a thread about a high school shooting. The title is "Florida High School Shooting". We are talking about how to protect kids. Are you angry that I am proposing methods to protect kids? I can propose methods to protect everybody else, too. I think we need to end the war on drugs, which is responsible for 30-60% of all gun murders, depending on your source. I think we need to re-evaluate the drugs we give to kids, many of which are known to cause suicidal and murderous thoughts. I also think we should protect our kids. I lock my door at night. Should I have to? NO. Should my country be a country where people might break into my house? NO. But I lock my door anyways to better protect myself. Is it 100% effective? No, someone might break in through my window. Yet I lock my door anyways. I want my kids protected and will do my best, even if what I do isn't 100% effective every time. You do too.

Arming teachers doesn't solve ANYTHING!

Let me ask you this: does arming teachers make things worse? Has anybody ever been harmed by an armed teacher? Has any teacher ever once wished they were armed when confronting a psycho gun murderer? What is the source of your opposition?
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,972
793
136
More good guys with guns that didn't stop it from happening :

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html


But, Mr. Spencer the Physics teacher will turn into John Wick and end it right then and there ...

Good guys without guns sacrificed their lives to save kids. Show some respect. If they had been armed, they MIGHT have been able to end it. Instead, they heroically absorbed bullets to save kids. If you could talk to them, what reason would you tell these dead teachers why they must NOT be armed and why they may NOT be given the chance to end the shooting by being trained, certified, and armed?
 

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,447
106
Many mass shooters commit suicide as soon as someone with a gun shows up. I don't know why. I can imagine that they want to kill as many people as possible and then kill themselves. Again, I don't know why. But in many cases, the shooting ends as soon as a good guy with a gun is on scene. Even if the good guy with the gun never fires it. I can't recall a single incident where a good guy with a gun has made a mass shooting worse. Why the resistance to letting good guys get training, certification, authority, and the ability to fight back? Is it a fear that protecting kids with guns somehow equates to opposition to gun control?
Also, that's not entirely true. The "bad guy" stops shooting when they believe their time is up which they have either determined before hand or paranoia gets the best of them. Yes, "good guys" take them out or arrest them but they are typically done shooting innocents by the time the good guys show up. That'll be true with armed teachers as well given that they will have to first access their secured guns to stop them.

Again arming teachers did not solve the problem of mass shooters even if mass shootings stopped at schools (THEY WON'T) how does it address mass shootings in general? If it doesn't stop at schools (IT WON'T) Are the deaths preceding a teacher putting a bullet in the shooter acceptable losses?
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,972
793
136
Also, that's not entirely true. The "bad guy" stops shooting when they believe their time is up which they have either determined before hand or paranoia gets the best of them. Yes, "good guys" take them out or arrest them but they are typically done shooting innocents by the time the good guys show up. That'll be true with armed teachers as well given that they will have to first access their secured guns to stop them.

It's uncanny how many mass shootings end with suicides as soon as the first guy with a gun confronts the psycho. I can't explain why and I never may know why. Yet there are shootings that ended as soon as the psycho saw a guy with a gun (no shots fired). This is a thing. Either way, you lose NOTHING by allowing a teacher to be trained, certified, and armed. Nothing.

Again arming teachers did not solve the problem of mass shooters even if mass shootings stopped at schools (THEY WON'T) how does it address mass shootings in general? If it doesn't stop at schools (IT WON'T) Are the deaths preceding a teacher putting a bullet in the shooter acceptable losses?

You seem to feel like no solution works unless you can literally prevent all mass shootings. Just so you know, we have 300,000,000+ guns in America. It is what it is. Just so you know, we have a very high prevalence of mental illness. It is what it is. Given these conditions, you CAN'T prevent mass shootings. How would you prevent these? Perhaps you can shift your focus onto how to respond in the moment to them. We currently call people with guns to come help us. What if those people with guns were already present? Could that save lives?
 

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,447
106
If guards are dangerous then why do you and I pay for them? I'm not going to argue that they are immune from accidents or screwups or freezing when they are needed. Those things all happen. Yet we all still pay for armed guards one way or the other. Whether it is our sports venues or our politicians or the people who pick up the money from Taco Bell and bring it to the bank. Our rich and powerful send their children to schools with armed guards. For millennia human beings have guarded important things with weapons. Are you going to argue that we should not have armed guards? Yes or no?



Until you get rid of 300,000,000 guns, then yes, let's protect stuff by the best means possible. I don't want us to have to protect our kids. I don't want to worry about my kids getting hit crossing the street. I don't want to worry about my kid drowning in a pool, eating a poisonous plant, or falling off a roof. Just because I don't WANT to protect my kids from something that I should not have to doesn't mean I don't want them protected. Please guard my kids. I have 3 little boys and I want them to be protected. I can't do it by crying about how shitty my country is.



I'm pretty sure we have armed guards in every 1st world country. Can you name a country that does not have armed guards? It sucks that there are evil people. We must be allowed to defend ourselves from them. To argue against it is unbelievable.



No way. I generally mistrust cops. I'm totally with you on this. Cops have too much legal and political protection to do whatever they want and get away with it. That has nothing to do with allowing a teacher to get trained, certified, and approved to protect kids.




I'm literally posting in a thread about a high school shooting. The title is "Florida High School Shooting". We are talking about how to protect kids. Are you angry that I am proposing methods to protect kids? I can propose methods to protect everybody else, too. I think we need to end the war on drugs, which is responsible for 30-60% of all gun murders, depending on your source. I think we need to re-evaluate the drugs we give to kids, many of which are known to cause suicidal and murderous thoughts. I also think we should protect our kids. I lock my door at night. Should I have to? NO. Should my country be a country where people might break into my house? NO. But I lock my door anyways to better protect myself. Is it 100% effective? No, someone might break in through my window. Yet I lock my door anyways. I want my kids protected and will do my best, even if what I do isn't 100% effective every time. You do too.



Let me ask you this: does arming teachers make things worse? Has anybody ever been harmed by an armed teacher? Has any teacher ever once wished they were armed when confronting a psycho gun murderer? What is the source of your opposition?
Yes, arming teachers makes it worse. Are the 3 hundred Million guns going to be redistributed our will we become a country with 6 hundred Million guns. Does that sound better or safer to you?

I want your kids to be safe too but I'm also don't want them to have to see that the only way they can be safe in their own country is for then to be guarded. That's horrible.

Other countries are succeeding without armed teachers or guards in their schools. Is America just to suck and fu*ked up to achieve the same thing? No one is suggesting it'll be easy or quick but guns gotta go NOT multiply!

Geezuz Cries-t how in the hell can anyone think more than 3 hundred Million guns in the hands of civilians is a good idea. You're saying that humans have always protected against danger with weapons but today's available weapons are completely fu*king asinine and entirely unnecessary. And yeah, let's drastically reduce 3 hundred Million guns!
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,972
793
136
Yes, arming teachers makes it worse

How so? You have yet to present a reason.

Are the 3 hundred Million guns going to be redistributed our will we become a country with 6 hundred Million guns.

I totally am at a loss for what you are saying here. Help me out.

I want your kids to be safe too but I'm also don't want them to have to see that the only way they can be safe in their own country is for then to be guarded. That's horrible.

Man I so agree with you. Yet it is what it is. The best way to protect my kids is with guards. If it is good enough for my president and his children then it is good enough for my children. Why are you mad that I want armed, trained, certified people to protect my boys just as they do for rich and powerful people?

Geezuz Cries-t how in the hell can anyone think more than 3 hundred Million guns in the hands of civilians is a good idea. You're saying that humans have always protected against danger with weapons but today's available weapons are completely fu*king asinine and entirely unnecessary. And yeah, let's drastically reduce 3 hundred Million guns!

OK you want guns banned. They aren't. It is what it is. How can my 3 little boys be protected from psychotic murderers? It sure fucking won't be from "well wishes" and thoughts of "good gosh golly retards shouldn't get weapons". Neither of these has ever prevented or cut short a mass shooting. Ever. Why are you mad that I might get people to guard my kids the same way that rich and powerful people get people to guard their kids?
 

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,447
106
How so? You have yet to present a reason.



I totally am at a loss for what you are saying here. Help me out.



Man I so agree with you. Yet it is what it is. The best way to protect my kids is with guards. If it is good enough for my president and his children then it is good enough for my children. Why are you mad that I want armed, trained, certified people to protect my boys just as they do for rich and powerful people?



OK you want guns banned. They aren't. It is what it is. How can my 3 little boys be protected from psychotic murderers? It sure fucking won't be from "well wishes" and thoughts of "good gosh golly retards shouldn't get weapons". Neither of these has ever prevented or cut short a mass shooting. Ever. Why are you mad that I might get people to guard my kids the same way that rich and powerful people get people to guard their kids?
Are you rich and powerful? You've lost me on your reasoning for wanting guards. Not lost me in confusion but in having any desire to continue this conversation.

The 3 hundred Million to 6 hundred million comment is self explanatory.

It is what it is, is actually a stupid argument.

Nah, we're done here. Wanting guards because rich people have guards ... I can't even. You're skewed buddy but hey we managed to have a somewhat civil conversation for a minute. Toodles for now.
 

snoopy7548

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2005
8,224
5,290
146
Giving guns to teachers and having armed guards in our classrooms goes against the very fiber of American ideals. It's a spit in the face of liberty. We will officially be living in complete and total fear of ourselves. If you honestly want schools to resemble a military installation, you've lost your fucking mind and need to step back and re-examine where you drove off the cliff.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,143
19,852
146
Giving guns to teachers and having armed guards in our classrooms goes against the very fiber of American ideals. It's a spit in the face of liberty. We will officially be living in complete and total fear of ourselves. If you honestly want schools to resemble a military installation, you've lost your fucking mind and need to step back and re-examine where you drove off the cliff.
Intellectualism elitist libtard, how bow dah?
 
Reactions: snoopy7548

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
Thanks for the synopsis. And thanks for not forcing me to slog through Taj posts. I also want schools safer. I don't believe that giving armed, certified, trained teachers is dangerous. We literally call armed, certified, trained people to respond when shootings happen. Why not arm, certify, and train people who are actually at the school and who can respond in real time? I don't care if it is a resource officer, a principal, a teacher, or an adult hall monitor. If they have been trained and certified, then they MAY have the ability to stop a mass murder.

What evidence is there that it might actually be more dangerous? I have not heard of a single incident of a death caused by an armed teacher.
If we do not arm teachers, of course there wouldn't be negative statistics about armed teachers. Not having negative statistics where they couldn't exist doesn't support an argument to do something.

My point is that law enforcement officers have notoriously bad accuracy in high pressure situations. Even certified and trained teachers will undoubtedly have less experience and training than police officers which would rationally suggest that they would respond with even less reliability.

Training to shoot a target and reliably shooting a target is not the same as training to respond to a live fire threat, especially when it's something one will rarely, if ever, encounter. There just isn't enough training that could exist to prepare a teacher for such a situation.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,255
16,576
136
Interesting article about how people react to gunfire:
https://www.charlottefive.com/arming-teachers/

The article reinforces exactly what my point was in one of these threats. This hero fantasy where an armed good guy stops the bad guy is just that, fantasy. Sure it could happen where the respondent is able to rise up and stop the shooter but it's not guaranteed and giving parents and children a false sense of security when other things can be done is wrong.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
What false narrative? I said that teachers sacrificed themselves and that we use guards to protect us. Neither of these were false. Can you specify?



What are my insecurities? And I am fragile because I don't even lift bro.



???



Why did you think that? Those are not my words.



I think that while our nation has 300 million guns + the highest rate of mental illness, we should protect people. That is rational.



Look, we both want the same thing: kids not getting killed at school. We disagree on methodology, but we want the same thing. We're pretty much bros at this point.
The false narrative is that guns are a net positive, when going by the data we have, that is not remotely so. So yeah, I disagree with bad methodology. Come to the light side, bro.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,237
10,632
136
Good guys without guns sacrificed their lives to save kids. Show some respect. If they had been armed, they MIGHT have been able to end it. Instead, they heroically absorbed bullets to save kids. If you could talk to them, what reason would you tell these dead teachers why they must NOT be armed and why they may NOT be given the chance to end the shooting by being trained, certified, and armed?

No disrespect directed at them at all. The intent is to point out the gun nut wet dream of a rambo in plain clothes just doesn't exist. Even trained professionals cannot predict how they'd react in a split second fight or flight situation. And you're advocating untrained history teachers be put in the same scenarios. If anything, the disrespect is on your side in that you don't respect what seems to be overwhelming negative reaction to this proposed solution from teachers and their respective unions.
 
Reactions: Younigue
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