Florida High School Shooting

[realibrad]

I don't know about Florida but at in the State of Texas it would have to been at least a licensed Psychologist that (oversaw) the evaluation (which probably would have been done by an intern working on getting his license.)

I think the problem here was that they were looking into if he was being treated and if there was neglect. They did not find neglect and they found that he was getting enough treatment with medication and therapy appointments which might have been true at the time, but stopped upon his mother's death. Had there been another wellness check I feel he would have failed and likely gotten treatment. Just sad.

 

[TheVrolok]

I’d think that having a documented video by a State Agency of a person cutting themselves and saying they want a gun to shoot themself or others would be enough to put that person on a no buy gun list.

You would be surprised how exceedingly difficult it is to involuntarily commit someone for any length of time longer than a few days. It's not necessarily hard to institute the process, but it is somewhat difficult to have it renewed. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as it is vital to maintain individual freedom. Americans generally don't like the idea of making it easy for the "authorities" to lock you up without actually having done something.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

You would be surprised how exceedingly difficult it is to involuntarily commit someone for any length of time longer than a few days. It's not necessarily hard to institute the process, but it is somewhat difficult to have it renewed. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as it is vital to maintain individual freedom. Americans generally don't like the idea of making it easy for the "authorities" to lock you up without actually having done something.

I’m not saying lock up, I’m saying a flag against a gun purchase. The dude literally broadcast this, no HIPPA privacy there.

 

[TheVrolok]

I’m not saying lock up, I’m saying a flag against a gun purchase. The dude literally broadcast this, no HIPPA privacy there.

Oh I don't disagree with you, just commenting as a bit of an aside.

 

[SMOGZINN]

This is not necessarily a bad thing, as it is vital to maintain individual freedom. Americans generally don't like the idea of making it easy for the "authorities" to lock you up without actually having done something.

Most of this than we like to admit has to do with economics rather than some American belief in individual rights. Insurance companies don't like to pay for mental health because it is notoriously hard to show concrete improvements in condition, and because it is all to often the correct solution is a bottomless well of treatment. The Government doesn't want to pay for it, because, well, Republicans. The individuals that need treatment are most often not able to pay for it because the conditions limit their ability to, and their conditions often keep them from seeking out treatment even when they are financially able to pay.

 

[TheVrolok]

Most of this than we like to admit has to do with economics rather than some American belief in individual rights. Insurance companies don't like to pay for mental health because it is notoriously hard to show concrete improvements in condition, and because it is all to often the correct solution is a bottomless well of treatment. The Government doesn't want to pay for it, because, well, Republicans. The individuals that need treatment are most often not able to pay for it because the conditions limit their ability to, and their conditions often keep them from seeking out treatment even when they are financially able to pay.

Absolutely true.

 

[jpeyton]

In no uncertain terms, Trump kneecapped his base today: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/us/politics/trump-gun-control.html

Over on Reddit, r/The_Donald is in full on revolt, with bans being handed out like candy to long time members who couldn't stomach Trump going turncoat on the 2A: http://archive.is/T26lA

Oh yeah...almost forgot...somehow GUN CONTROL made it to Bentonville, Arkansas today. BOOM SHAKA LAKA.

 

[soundforbjt]

Most of this than we like to admit has to do with economics rather than some American belief in individual rights. Insurance companies don't like to pay for mental health because it is notoriously hard to show concrete improvements in condition, and because it is all to often the correct solution is a bottomless well of treatment. The Government doesn't want to pay for it, because, well, Republicans. The individuals that need treatment are most often not able to pay for it because the conditions limit their ability to, and their conditions often keep them from seeking out treatment even when they are financially able to pay.

Anyone old enough to remember, a lot of mental patients were literally dropped off in the streets during the Reagan years.

 

[HomerJS]

In no uncertain terms, Trump kneecapped his base today: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/us/politics/trump-gun-control.html

Over on Reddit, r/The_Donald is in full on revolt, with bans being handed out like candy to long time members who couldn't stomach Trump going turncoat on the 2A: http://archive.is/T26lA

Oh yeah...almost forgot...somehow GUN CONTROL made it to Bentonville, Arkansas today. BOOM SHAKA LAKA.

That is Wednesday Trump. Friday Trump could undo all of it just like that DACA meeting.

 

[jpeyton]

That is Wednesday Trump. Friday Trump could undo all of it just like that DACA meeting.

I don't really care if Trump waffles. It's doing an incredible amount of damage to the enthusiasm of his base. Check out this bloodbath: https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/80z30g/live_president_trump_meets_with_bipartisan/ The mods there had to do a lot of cleanup on dissenting opinions.

 

[rise]

How long can you keep someone in, if you hospitalise (I'd say 'section') them involuntarily?
If he'd been admitted in 2016, would he not have inevitably gotten out again before now?
Perhaps I'm being pessimistic in ruling out the idea that he'd have been 'cured'.

In Ma, we have two means of holding people, one is section 12 and the other section 35. From what I understood when I was dealing with it, Fl is the only other state that allows sectioning but I can't be sure, that was 3 years ago.

Section 12, a family member will usually take the person to a hospital for a mental health evaluation but anyone who deems you a credible threat, say through calling in a "wellness check" to the cops, could lead to a sectioning. I can tell you from experience, its quite easy to talk ones self out of the sectioning. You basically talk to one shrink and a whatever nurse is assigned to observe you for 24 hours. If they do keep you its for 3 nights and if they want to keep you ionger, they need to either solicit your consent or seek it through the court.

Section 35 can hold someone for 90 days but in reality because of a shortage of beds, its 30 days maximum. Mostly, you complete 32 classes regarding drug and alcohol abuse. Classes are set to 16/week so you're guaranteed at least 17 days or so depending on which gay you arrive and who your case worker is. That's important- they make it clear they aren't counselors, you have a case worker who's job it is to process you through. They will make some effort to see that you have a place to go AND that you're wanted there. No restraining orders etc. But, if you just tell them you have a place to go, you're good. If you tell them you're homeless, they arrange public transportation.

You're held in a jail although kept separate barracks. Some get out in 3 weeks, some are held for more but its more a test on whether you can follow a schedule and not get into fights. Fighting leads to the hole and more importantly missed classes that have to be made up when the class rotation comes back again so it could add way more than the 5 nights in the hole.

It still doesn't work for those who don't want help. And its used way more as a means to get addicts off the street.

 

[rise]

I forgot, section 12 is for 3 business nights inless they seek longer through the courts.

Section 35 is done in court to start= they will pick you up, bring you in front of the judge, you see a shrink and a court appointed lawyer and you're pretty much going away haha. Its not a great system.

 

[pmv]

In Ma, we have two means of holding people, one is section 12 and the other section 35. From what I understood when I was dealing with it, Fl is the only other state that allows sectioning but I can't be sure, that was 3 years ago.

Section 12, a family membet will usually take the person to a hospital for a mental health evaluation but I can tell you from experience, its quite easy to talk ones self out of the sectioning. You basically talk to one shrink and a whatever nurse is assigned to observe you. If they do keep you and they want to keep you linger, they need to either solicit your consent or seek it through the court.

Section 25 can hold someone for 90 days but in reality because of a shortage of beds, its 30 days maximum. Mostly, you complete 32 classes regarding drug and alcohol abuse. You're held in a jail although kept separate. SOme get out in 3 weeks, some are held for more but its more a test on whether you can follow a schedule and not get into fights. Fighting leads to the hole and more importantly missed classes that have to be made up when the class rotation comes back again so it could add way more than the 5 nights in the hole.

It still doesn't work for those who don't want help. And its used way more as a means to get addicts off the street.

Thanks. That is kind of how I vaguely thought it worked (if 'worked' is really the right word). Does this then mean the earlier linked story about the guy (I prefer not to use his name) avoiding such sectioning in 2016 isn't really of particular significance? He could have gone in, come out again, and this would still have happened, no?

 

[rise]

Thanks. That is kind of how I vaguely thought it worked (if 'worked' is really the right word). Does this then mean the earlier linked story about the guy (I prefer not to use his name) avoiding such sectioning in 2016 isn't really of particular significance? He could have gone in, come out again, and this would still have happened, no?

in Ma, yes, definitely. In Fl, I don't know but I'm guessing they wouldn't be more liberal with info they share.

 

[TheVrolok]

Thanks. That is kind of how I vaguely thought it worked (if 'worked' is really the right word). Does this then mean the earlier linked story about the guy (I prefer not to use his name) avoiding such sectioning in 2016 isn't really of particular significance? He could have gone in, come out again, and this would still have happened, no?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Anyone old enough to remember, a lot of mental patients were literally dropped off in the streets during the Reagan years.

You don't even have to be that old, because hospitals are still being caught doing it, in places like Maryland and California.

 

[jpeyton]

The gun control debate is a true master stroke by the Democrats. I’m predicting with near 100% confidence that Trump will not finish his first term without being impeached. This is just a small glimpse from the very right leaning r/Guns Reddit:

From Trump’s typically loyal Facebook followers:

 

[rise]

nRA must be feeling like trump university grads, haha

 

[Fanatical Meat]

The gun control debate is a true master stroke by the Democrats. I’m predicting with near 100% confidence that Trump will not finish his first term without being impeached. This is just a small glimpse from the very right leaning r/Guns Reddit:

From Trump’s typically loyal Facebook followers:

Meh it’s easy to say crap on the internet, look at all of us.
Test is when the cards are down and your choices are Trump or Biden/maybe Booker. Who are you going to vote for. Either or question there is no middle route.

 

[nickqt]

The gun control debate is a true master stroke by the Democrats. I’m predicting with near 100% confidence that Trump will not finish his first term without being impeached. This is just a small glimpse from the very right leaning r/Guns Reddit:

From Trump’s typically loyal Facebook followers:

Fortunately for Strongman Trump and the Republican party in general, reason and rationality plays absolutely no role when it comes time for the useful idiots to continue pulling the same lever in the voting booth.

Masters Limbaugh and Hannity are, as we speak, conjuring the next set of talking points and conjuring words to ensure that their useful idiots will continue providing the votes and representatives so that they can get their tax breaks.

 

[jpeyton]

Fortunately for Strongman Trump and the Republican party in general, reason and rationality plays absolutely no role when it comes time for the useful idiots to continue pulling the same lever in the voting booth.

Masters Limbaugh and Hannity are, as we speak, conjuring the next set of talking points and conjuring words to ensure that their useful idiots will continue providing the votes and representatives so that they can get their tax breaks.

Even a little discouragement from voting can make the difference between winning and losing. Having Trump proposing gun grabbing on live television is definitely depressing his base to some degree.

 

[Meghan54]

This is just too darned appropriate.......

 

[VRAMdemon]

In no uncertain terms, Trump kneecapped his base today: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/us/politics/trump-gun-control.html

Over on Reddit, r/The_Donald is in full on revolt, with bans being handed out like candy to long time members who couldn't stomach Trump going turncoat on the 2A: http://archive.is/T26lA

Oh yeah...almost forgot...somehow GUN CONTROL made it to Bentonville, Arkansas today. BOOM SHAKA LAKA.

Well, Trump is an equal opportunity imbecile, regardless of political affiliation. He’s setting himself to be a better salesperson for gun manufacturers than Obama (unwittingly) was. If a Democratic presidential candidate uttered these exact words, you could rest assured that at least one entire day of the Republican National Convention would be devoted to that quote.

In this administration, the President's words shouldn't be treated as meaningful statements of policy. Nobody on Capitol Hill takes anything he says seriously. This could be just Trump riffing on his rectal harmonica. Still, I imagine there were a few drops of flop sweat on some GOP foreheads.The GOP is happy to take advantage of his parroting when it suits them and equally happy to ignore it otherwise.

If I had to make a prediction...Congress will refine the Manchin-Toomey gun control proposal, removing the concealed carry reciprocity poison pill and adding an age limit and possible new assault weapons requirements.

Manchin and Toomey will make an appointment to present it to the President. They will go to the meeting only to find a couple of hard core gun advisors and NRA reps there as well. Trump will call the bill a gun-grabbing piece of shit while personally insulting Manchin and Toomey.

Then nothing more will happen..

 

[SMOGZINN]

Even a little discouragement from voting can make the difference between winning and losing. Having Trump proposing gun grabbing on live television is definitely depressing his base to some degree.

The elections are still about 300 news cycles away. This will be forgotten by his base long before the polls open, and if it looks like it is not some conspiracy can be cooked up that is WAY more important than this to his base. Democrats are probably planning to make mandatory abortions for white Christian women. Or perhaps they are conspiring with the FBI and INS to release rapist immigrants into our neighborhoods. Someone probably has emails to prove it.

 

[jpeyton]

The elections are still about 300 news cycles away. This will be forgotten by his base long before the polls open, and if it looks like it is not some conspiracy can be cooked up that is WAY more important than this to his base. Democrats are probably planning to make mandatory abortions for white Christian women. Or perhaps they are conspiring with the FBI and INS to release rapist immigrants into our neighborhoods. Someone probably has emails to prove it.

You're a glass half empty person. All I see are 300 more news cycles of bad news for Trump, just like the last 300 news cycles.