Frame Relay vs. VPN

[Transition]

I work for a company that has 6 remote branches. Currently we're using a frame relay through Qwest for approximately $2,500/mo. I was recently presented with the option of upgrading our routers to newer Cisco units and providing connectivity from the branches through VPN. The total cost savings a month would be approximately $2,000/mo if we eliminated the frame relay and used DSL connections at all branches with a VPN tying into our main branch.

Not being a networking guy, i'm having a hard time determining what to do from an un-biased source. From one side i have Qwest trying to sell me the frame relay because it's "more stable" and more secure (only 1 access point through our main branch). Then i have our company that provides us with our distribution software (whom also does our networking) tells me using the Cisco's w/ VPN and DSL connections at all remote locations is the best thing since sliced bread. Well, i know using individual connections at all branches would mean 6 access points and more security concerns. That's a given. We don't due any flitering or monitoring currently with the proxy that we're making clients connect through (WinGate - teh sux0rs).

Summary: I need you guys to give me an honest opinion. Would you go with the frame relay or VPN w/ DSL connections at all branches?

 

[spidey07]

Broadband based DSL - cheap, fast, pretty secure, unrealiable, difficult to troubleshoot (providers always say it is your equipment)

Frame - Rock solid, low latency, fast (but does not perform as well as the Raw bandwidth of broadband), cheap - not as much so as DSL, secure private network.

see this previous thread for some more discussion.

It is a touch call. If these offices are local then DSL seems the obvious choice.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=36&threadid=943336&highlight_key=y

 

[Transition]

Thanks for the input Spidey.. Yes, the branches are local. The thing is our CIR from some of the branches is as low as 32k, unacceptable. To upgrade our CIR we have to purchase new CSU/DSU's (about $500/ea). So the way things are now, the frame relay really isn't THAT fast at all. My concern is obviously having a reliable connection. If all else fails, our remote branches can work seamlessly on dialup to our main branch. The cost savings is significant, i just don't want to jump into the DSL though if we're going to have huge drawbacks.

 

[spidey07]

well, when I say unreliable I mean 6-8 outages a year. Problem is how long are those outages? Maybe your provider can offer business class DSL with all the support that goes along with it?

PS - you don't need new CSUs for a change in CIR. CIR is a measurement of the virtual circuit withing frame-relay.

Sounds like an interesting quick network to build. If you want the most bang for your buck then VPN based DSL is above and beyond the best choice here.

Keeping the VPN, CSU or DSL modem all in one router is a great approach. Put a modem and modem line in each office for remote troubleshooting for sure.

 

[Soybomb]

If they can get by on dialup for a while and understand that there will be times when they have to, then I'd be tempted to go with the dsl. Just be sure that they understand they'll be loosing out on some reliability to save the money. Suggest a bonus for saving them some money

 

[Transition]

Spidey, we're actually using some old CSU/DSU's capable of 64k throughput. Maybe i'm incorrect on that though?

Soybomb, ah yes. I'll just tell them they can direct deposit the savings into my account.

 

[SR]

What state are you in? In rare instances you might be able to get dark fiber for next to mothing. In most cases you can get a Clac to provide cheaper connectivity opions too. Check around to other providers mainly tier 2 providers that is. Stay away from Sprint or AT&T as they will be more than expensive than qwest.

I have qwest business class dsl. It stinks. We have a few customers in the Minnepolis region with 1/meg/4meg dsl. The line stays up all the time but for speed? No thanks 512k frame from a tier 2 wins all the time. I'm no fan of qwest dsl at all for the speed but up time, you might face 1 outage in a year.

Now you can get qwest managed vpn services too that use their dsl. Basically just a quality of service guarantee so you get x bandwidth and x latency no matter what.

Now this idea will increase your headend router costs but since the branches are local it may be less expensive to go with point to point circuits than frame.

As for revamping your equipment, 32k cir and replacement of csu/dsu means 56k remotes. What model of routers do you have? If you stay with frame what do you want your cir to be at?

 

[Transition]

I'm in Minnesota.. More specifically main branch is in Hopkins

As for revamping your equipment, 32k cir and replacement of csu/dsu means 56k remotes. What model of routers do you have? If you stay with frame what do you want your cir to be at?

Well some branches are at a 32k CIR and we're looking to bring them to a 128/256k . Current model routers are a Motorola Vanguard 320. If we stayed with a frame i'd like all of our branches to have 128k CIR available. The main reason i'm looking at the DSL w/ VPN solution is cost though.

 

[Abzstrak]

I say go with the DSL solution with a 56k dialup backup... even 56k should be liveable if the line you have right now are.

 

[Transition]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'm going to meet w/ Qwest tomorrow and listen to them tell me how DSL sucks and i should stay with the frame relay. We're also going to determine the eligibility for DSL in all of our remote locations. If all goes well this should save the company $2k/mo - did someone say bonus?

 

[Goosemaster]

DSL does suck

Think about security.

The only places to access your connection as at your shop, at the telco and at the other end. In between, the cloud makes it nearly-impossibl;e to intercept. VPN on the other hand is not so lucky.

Quality and reliability.

Frame allows for QoS etc and although Business DSL is good, it can't match Frame's non-stop reliability.
I work at a Financial iNstitution and we won't touch VPN with a 10 ft pole if we don't have to.

Speed.

THis is the advantage of VPN....cheap/rockbottom prices for loads og megs /sec

THe ideal situation has VPN for insecure connections where you need a lot of bandwidth, and where a Frame line backs it up...or JUST a Frame and you eat the gost

Tip...don't take my word for it but I believe cisco still frequently uses PPTP instead of the more secure IPsec protocol..then again, it might just be that our system need upgrading

Have you though about a PTP(point-to-point ) connection.....T1's or Ds1's D3' etc?