fx 5800 failure?

shinzwei

Banned
Jul 5, 2004
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i got a chaintech fx5800nu running at 510/1000....good or bad? also got a 4683 on 3dmark03
 

Fenuxx

Senior member
Dec 3, 2004
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I think thats in line for that card. Remember, the FX5800 is not that powerful, and it has some serious hardware flaws (the original NV30 did, but much of it was fixed with the NV35\36\38)
 

nRollo

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Jan 11, 2002
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Originally posted by: geforcetony
I think thats in line for that card. Remember, the FX5800 is not that powerful, and it has some serious hardware flaws (the original NV30 did, but much of it was fixed with the NV35\36\38)

For a "GeForce Tony" you're certainly lacking in "GeForce Lore"?

The only differences in the nV30 and the nV35 are 128bit memory access and redone shaders, which were better, but still of no more "use" for DX9 than the originals?

He has his 5800 running at 5800U speeds. while you may not think that is "very powerful", for the time it was either the fastest or close second fastest thing you could buy.

That may not be very powerful by todays standards, but nothing from that year is? The 5800U stands tall in 2003 though.
 

Fenuxx

Senior member
Dec 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: geforcetony
I think thats in line for that card. Remember, the FX5800 is not that powerful, and it has some serious hardware flaws (the original NV30 did, but much of it was fixed with the NV35\36\38)

For a "GeForce Tony" you're certainly lacking in "GeForce Lore"?

The only differences in the nV30 and the nV35 are 128bit memory access and redone shaders, which were better, but still of no more "use" for DX9 than the originals?

He has his 5800 running at 5800U speeds. while you may not think that is "very powerful", for the time it was either the fastest or close second fastest thing you could buy.

That may not be very powerful by todays standards, but nothing from that year is? The 5800U stands tall in 2003 though.


Yes, but they also fixed some of the way that the core addressed shaders (remember CineFX in NV30, and CineFX 2.0 in NV35\36\38 ?). This was done because the original NV30 sucked complete ass when it came to shader-limited shite . I agree with McArra, in 2K3, the 9700P was king, and right after the 5x00 series was debuted, the 9800P was introduced, and it trounced anything in the FX line. I may be a hard core NVIDIA fan-boy, but I will accept that in that round, ATI won. So, yes, Rollo, I DO know my "GeForce Lore", as you call it.

Edit: lots of it was italics. Oops!
 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
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Originally posted by: geforcetony
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: geforcetony
I think thats in line for that card. Remember, the FX5800 is not that powerful, and it has some serious hardware flaws (the original NV30 did, but much of it was fixed with the NV35\36\38)

For a "GeForce Tony" you're certainly lacking in "GeForce Lore"?

The only differences in the nV30 and the nV35 are 128bit memory access and redone shaders, which were better, but still of no more "use" for DX9 than the originals?

He has his 5800 running at 5800U speeds. while you may not think that is "very powerful", for the time it was either the fastest or close second fastest thing you could buy.

That may not be very powerful by todays standards, but nothing from that year is? The 5800U stands tall in 2003 though.


Yes, but they also fixed some of the way that the core addressed shaders (remember CineFX in NV30, and CineFX 2.0 in NV35\36\38 ?). This was done because the original NV30 sucked complete ass when it came to shader-limited shite . I agree with McArra, in 2K3, the 9700P was king, and right after the 5x00 series was debuted, the 9800P was introduced, and it trounced anything in the FX line. I may be a hard core NVIDIA fan-boy, but I will accept that in that round, ATI won. So, yes, Rollo, I DO know my "GeForce Lore", as you call it.

Edit: lots of it was italics. Oops!

I wouldn't call that "knowing your GeForce lore"- you left out that even if the 9700Pro and FX5800 had bubble gum where the shaders should be, it would be over a year after the release of the 9700Pro till games started to trickle out that barely used shaders. It was 16 months after the release of the 9700Pro the first "big" DX9 game came out (Far Cry) so any DX9 "trouncing" ATI did was limited to a couple games most people didn't have.

Saying they "trounced" based on that would seem biased to me.
 

Fenuxx

Senior member
Dec 3, 2004
907
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Originally posted by: Rollo
I wouldn't call that "knowing your GeForce lore"- you left out that even if the 9700Pro and FX5800 had bubble gum where the shaders should be, it would be over a year after the release of the 9700Pro till games started to trickle out that barely used shaders. It was 16 months after the release of the 9700Pro the first "big" DX9 game came out (Far Cry) so any DX9 "trouncing" ATI did was limited to a couple games most people didn't have.

Saying they "trounced" based on that would seem biased to me.

However, the games that were out, such as Tomb Raider: AOD (I know, it was crap-ass), and later Halo, the FX's problem with shaders was shown for all the world to see. The shaders the FX produced did not look as good as ATI's, nor did it perform as fast. As more and more games that used shaders came out, the flaws of the NV30 were even more apparent. Granted, by this time, the NV35 had came out and had partially fixed the problem, but some of it was still there.

I'll break it down for you:

The NV3x has a long processing pipeline, much like the P4. As we all know, the P4 sometimes chokes when software is not coded to be "friendly" to the architechture. The R3x0, on the other hand, is more like the Athlon. It can't reach astounding speeds, but it has a high IPC (instructions per clock). This doesn't allow ATI to crank the core to 500MHz, but it is more efficient than NV30, and thus, it is a little "friendlier" to software (in this case, shaders) that is not coded efficiently.
Shaders, as you may know, sometimes have to do several things to properly work. For example, if a shader is to fill an object with some texture and then blend it with another, a poorly coded shader would be sent to the GPU in the order of: texture; blend; texture; blend. The NV30 would have to kick the shader out of its pipeline, and then start over with the second operation. It would do this for each step, and, because the NV30 has a long pipeline, it would take a whopping 4 clock cycles to complete. However, if you take this same shader op, and re-order it to make it more efficient, in the order of: texture; texture; blend; blend, the program would run through the pipeline in one shot, no problem. Unfortunately for NVIDIA, programmers oftentimes coded the shaders in the order of the first example, which made the chip perform worse than the R300. There were, obviously, a few exceptions to this analogy, but for the most part, R300 was king when it came to shaders.

Now, for ATI's chip. The R300 would have none of the problems that NV30 would with unoptomized shaders, as to it, the code was all the same. Granted, the code would perfom slower with the first example, but its impact would be much less compared to NV30's as R300 has a much shorter pipeline.

Wow, I can't believe that I'm arguing on the side of ATI. Something must be seriously wrong with me. Wait, I know, I've been up all night at a LAN Party. Duh! Too much caffeine, I guess, and no sleep = weird stuff. Anyways, I hope this sheds some light as to what I was talking about. Didn't know that stuff didja Rollo

See, I do know what I'm talking about!
 

fstime

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2004
4,382
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9800P and even the 9700P crushed the whole FX line in DX9. Kinda sad since I heard the 9600XT beats every FX card in 3dmark05.
 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
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Originally posted by: geforcetony
However, the games that were out, such as Tomb Raider: AOD (I know, it was crap-ass), and later Halo, the FX's problem with shaders was shown for all the world to see. The shaders the FX produced did not look as good as ATI's, nor did it perform as fast.

You apparently don't know what you think you know GeForce Tony.
5800U running Halo as fast as a 9800Pro or 5900U
No one was arguing that the shaders on the Nv3X series were not as good as the R300 shaders.
I was pointing out that they weren't "fixed" to R300 levels on the nV35, and that shaders were largely irrelevant until spring 2004.

I'll break it down for you:
Sigh, it's 2002 again apparently, because I get the feeling I've read all this a few times before?

Wow, I can't believe that I'm arguing on the side of ATI. Something must be seriously wrong with me.
Why would something be "wrong with you"? ATI has always had good products that had their strengths and weaknesses- the shaders were a strength with that model.


See, I do know what I'm talking about!

At the end of the day GeForce Tony, for about sixteen months after R300 was launched, DX9 shader superiority was about as important as 3dc currently is. There was no "clear advantage" based on DX9 shader performance because there were no games with DX9 shaders.
 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
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Originally posted by: BouZouki
9800P and even the 9700P crushed the whole FX line in DX9. Kinda sad since I heard the 9600XT beats every FX card in 3dmark05.

Really? The FX line came out in February 2003. What games were there in the 12 months following their release that the R300 line was better at playing. Please list 4.
 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Just about anything with AA and AF cranked.

This isn't a list of four games where shaders mattered, it's an allusion to the presumption that since 9700Ps had 20GBs memory bandwidth, and 5800Us had 15 GBs bandwidth, the 9700Ps were assumed to be far superior at AA/AF.

What it neglects, is that the 5800U had a better fillrate.

Since you, GeForce Tony and Bouzouki seem to be having trouble listing links to back your musings, allow me to demonstrate:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=1821&p=23
Doom3
12X10 4X8X 5800U= 32 9800P= 29fps I guess your "any" doesn't apply to Doom3.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=1821&p=24
UT2003
12X10 4X8X 5800U= 80fps 9700P=83fps
16X12 4X8X 5800U=45fps 9700P=53fps Whether 45/53 is "fast enough" for an online shooter is debatable, but there is not a huge difference in any case

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=1821&p=26
Jedi Knight 2
16X12 4X8X 5800U=94fps 9700P=99fps No real advantage there either, eh, buddies?

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=1821&p=27
Commanche 4
16X12 4X8X 5800U=26fps 9700Pro= 27fps

So I'm confused my friends:

I have you on one hand making statement that the 5800U can't handle AA/AF, yet our fine host, AT, has shown me that the 5800U can clearly and easily handle 4X8X anyway.

So who should I believe? Snowman and Bouzouki, or Anand??????

Snowman and Bouzouki seem like good guys, but Anand is a famous hardware reviewer, and I've replicated his findings with my own 9700P and 5800U.

Who can a guy trust? Anand? Bouzouki? Snowman?

I'll have to think about that a while.
 

McArra

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
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OK Rollo, 5800 ruled and was the best.... which would I have now between those 2 If I had to choose? 9700Pro of course
 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
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Originally posted by: McArra
OK Rollo, 5800 ruled and was the best.... which would I have now between those 2 If I had to choose? 9700Pro of course

That's what most people do.

Real enthusiasts buy and enjoy both.
 

McArra

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
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Don't think so, maybe if you are rich and/or have a job, which I don't, still studying...
 

fstime

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2004
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http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=1821&p=23

Doom3 is a Nvidia optimized game. I can say the same for ATI with HL2.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=1821&p=24

All I see if the 9700P beating the 5800U, the 9800P would do even better, isn't this game another nvidia optimized game too?

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=1821&p=26

Once again the 9700P wins, and once again you compare it to the older 9700P instead of the 9800P.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=1821&p=27

Same story.


I think you need to stop comparing it to the 9700P and compare it to the 9800P, If I remember correctly the 5800U came out well after the 9700P and didn't even beat it in games, then ATI released the 9800P which pretty much finished the FX line. I can also say the 5800U was a failure because it didn't beat the older 9700P.

So, just to get rollo to stop arguing for once. We should all please him and agree that the 5800U is better.
 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
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Bouzouki:
I think you need to stop comparing it to the 9700P and compare it to the 9800P, If I remember correctly the 5800U came out well after the 9700P and didn't even beat it in games, then ATI released the 9800P which pretty much finished the FX line. I can also say the 5800U was a failure because it didn't beat the older 9700P

Unfortunately, there are several problems with all you have said again Bouzouki, you just don't have your facts straight.

I asked for a list of four DX9 games that came out within a year of the the 5800Us launch, no one provided one. So, all we can assume is that DX9 shaders didn't matter for a year after the 5800U was launched in Feb.2003, because none of you has stepped up to prove me wrong.

Instead you and the Snowman sidestepped the issue by stating "Well, the 5800U can't do AA/AF", but provided no links. I provide links to 4 games where Anand himself showed there would be no discernible difference in gameplay with AA/AF, and all you can say is, "well, the 9700Pro won". Sure, it won every benchmark I posted by a couple fps. Can you tell the difference in performance of those benchmarks Bouzouki? No you can't. No human being could tell the difference in those averages, because the performance of the cards is too close.
Bouzouki, while it may be true that "winning" by 3-4fps is a paper "win", the problem is if you haven't "won" by a clear margin you haven't differentiated your product and given anyone a reason to by yours over your competitor.

Last, you trot out this, "You should be comparing the 5800U to the 9800P" rubbish. Why is that? The 5900U came out before the 9800P, shouldn't we compare those instead? While the 9700Pro did come out four months before the 5800U, it wasn't nVidia's fault. They opted to go with thinner silicon, and TSMC couldn't deliver in time.

You guys go on and on and on about this supposed ATI superiority last gen (not that it matters much these days- pretty easy to see who holds the performance and technology lead this year) and yet you offer nothing in support of your generalizations.

I remain unconvinced- you telling me something is so isn't enough to make me believe it, you'll need to back it up with facts and benchmarks, something woefully lacking in your "arguments".
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Just about anything with AA and AF cranked.

...I guess your "any" doesn't apply to Doom3...

Wow, If i had claimed an all inclusive "any" you would have proved me wrong. Granted there are always acceptions to the rule, which is why I prefaced my statement with "just about."

Your UT2003 example is a good one to show the general trend though, where the 9700pro comes out about 20% than the 5800u. I'm not going to bother digging up anchent benchmarks just to prove to you something most people already know, but I do recall GamePC did some benchmarks of less commonly benchmarked games that clearly showed how much better the 9700pro was at high end settings.
 

0JK0

Member
Jul 13, 2003
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Originally posted by: Rollo
Bouzouki:
Last, you trot out this, "You should be comparing the 5800U to the 9800P" rubbish. Why is that? The 5900U came out before the 9800P, shouldn't we compare those instead? While the 9700Pro did come out four months before the 5800U, it wasn't nVidia's fault. They opted to go with thinner silicon, and TSMC couldn't deliver in time.

Not really, buddy. 5900U did not come out before the 9800P for sure. Sorry....
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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Oh yeah, I forgot to comment on this gem:

Originally posted by: Rollo
So who should I believe? Snowman and Bouzouki, or Anand??????

Snowman and Bouzouki seem like good guys, but Anand is a famous hardware reviewer, and I've replicated his findings with my own 9700P and 5800U.

Who can a guy trust? Anand? Bouzouki? Snowman?

I'll have to think about that a while.

Anandtech's Moratorium on the NV3x.

 
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