FX5950, still better than 9800XT...

[Pete]

Re: The AM3 reference image. A comparison was posted with the ATi rendering, the nV rendering, and the DX9 Reference Rasterizer rendering (the reference image). nV got the smoke right, but ATi got the buggy right. So each deviated from the refrast somewhat.

cm123, I agree both companies should be held to the same standards, but THG's repeating nV's accusations (of which one already appears to be a minor bug, not a cheat) is not a very good IQ investigation. If you don't know how to get a reference image, or that any worthwhile IQ investigation would include them, then you really don't know enough to be asserting anything about those IQ issues nV raised and THG rather thoughtlessly repeated. I understand Lars' assertion that the pictures could jive with nV's assertion, but he was grossly remiss in not at least including refrast images for comparison.

BTW, those awards are nice and all, but how 'bout some more capitalization and punctuation to make your posts more readable?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: cm123
tabb... Yea, your using the 5950 as a reference image? My god your dumb.

this is not about a refernce image if you had any ideal what your talking about you would know that, images are missing in a rather simple term maybe even you and a few others may understand....

are you anything? know anything? have any certs? any awards? own a 9800XT or 5950?

i have been in computers since 1986 as a tech., MCSE (never failed a test in computers - passed first time, everytime, many MCSE can not say this), +I, +SQL, +Exchange, +IIS, +TCP/IP, A+, SCSI+, Red Hat Linux RH300, digital PBX engineer, Quantum MVP, MOS - senior product engineer while designing and approved of 2 editor choice systems including the first and fastest (at the time) AMD athlon (CRN) including set there record in #D performance using ATI card, first engineer at a whitebox company to confirm/find major hdd error (wd), guest speaker at crn xchange event, CIO for over 12 Years, etc...

...it may not be a lot, but its a start... that's a little about me... how about you (since you asked a few times)? have you done anything right or know anything (as you put it)?

Yea, with that grammar right?

 

[BoomAM]

Originally posted by: cm123
are you anything? know anything? have any certs? any awards? own a 9800XT or 5950?

i have been in computers since 1986 as a tech., MCSE (never failed a test in computers - passed first time, everytime, many MCSE can not say this), +I, +SQL, +Exchange, +IIS, +TCP/IP, A+, SCSI+, Red Hat Linux RH300, digital PBX engineer, Quantum MVP, MOS - senior product engineer while designing and approved of 2 editor choice systems including the first and fastest (at the time) AMD athlon (CRN) including set there record in #D performance using ATI card, first engineer at a whitebox company to confirm/find major hdd error (wd), guest speaker at crn xchange event, CIO for over 12 Years, etc...

Qualifications do not mean that you are the be all and end all of computer literacy.
I personally know several people who are more "qualified" than me in computers, yet i baffle them with my knowledge of them.
Your list of qualifications in impressive, yet i notice that you dont have a qualification in computer maintenence/installation, or one related to video cards. So your list is little more than wasted keystrokes.
And bty. Dont reduce this thead to a flame war by starting childish behavior, ie; insulting another member cos they dont agree with you (tabb).

Anyway;
Heres my opinion.
2D;
ATI may be a little slower in parts, but the extra clarity is worth it imo
3D;
In my books, ATI wins again. Fast, good image quality, everything is rendered.
Drivers;
Abut level imo. They both have flaws in them.

For reference, my current card, a 9700pro, is the first ATI card that ive owned. My previous 3 cards were nVidia ones.

 

[oldfart]

Couple of thoughts. It has been some time since I have been able to actually notice a 2D performance difference from one card to another. 2D performance has been very good in every card I have owned for some time.

Where is the 9800XT in this review?

Looking at these numbers, ATI?s 2D performance significantly falters behind NVIDIA?s. At a 3-megapixel resolution, the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro is 25.6% slower than NVIDIA GeForce FX 5900 Ultra, and if you were to run the GeForce FX 5900 Ultra at a faster core clockspeed of 430MHz (to bring NVIDIA?s 2D mode closer to its 3D clocksped), there is a 35% performance difference. At the popular resolution of 1280x1024, even at stock clockpeeds the ATI is 21% slower than the NVIDIA! These differences are noticeable and it?s not until you get down to 800x600 that it?s subjectively noticeable.

In This Graph, the 9800P and 5900U are quite close. What do they mean by 2D = 3D clockspped on the 5900U? Are they testing a 9800P @ stock clock speed against an overclocked 5900U? Do you have to run your 5900U 2D overclocked to get this (insignificant) advantage? In the overclocked 2D mode, the 5900U has a ***3% advantage*** over the 9800P running stock clock speed in the 1280 x 1024 resolution tested. Where is the stock 9800P Vs stock 5900U bench? How does the 5950U compare to its competitor, the 9800XT? We dont know since it was not tested.

What kind of a review is this?? Pretty darn lame IMHO.

I think FS is actually FoS.

 

[Mardeth]

Originally posted by: cm123
I have build over 10,000 systems including many review systems that have taken editors choice etc...

what have you done? read a few favorite review sites claim expert status?

Hahahaha, thats such an outrageous lie .

Ok, lets make some calculations here.

On average, you, as an expierienced assembler, build a computer in 2hs (installing Windows also).

Ok you I suspect you do 8 hours a day building computers, you have the weekends off and 4 weeks of holiday and misc. things a year.

Now with those facts it would take you about 11 years and 3 months to build 10,000+ computers and these are optimistic figures. Very unlikely I would say, and considering the way you type you cant be much older than 12... But hey, maybe you were talented and started at 7 months old...

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
I suppose that a response to my critiques is beyond a person with so many unbelievable certifications.

ARe we supposed to quiver in our litterhosen ????

Many people on this board hold higher degrees and are published but don't go tooting their horns at every opportunity.

Rogo

It looks as though he was called out by this statement and felt the need to show that he was in fact not a janitor. Horn tooting was provoked.

Quote "You say you're an engineer, but your spelling and grammar point more towards janitor."

I would prefer that all ego's be left at the door. If his credentials are higher than most of ours, I think we should respect that.
People work very hard at accomplishing things in this life and their accomplishments shouldn't be snubbed even if you disagree with what he/she is saying.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Mardeth

Originally posted by: cm123
I have build over 10,000 systems including many review systems that have taken editors choice etc...

what have you done? read a few favorite review sites claim expert status?

Hahahaha, thats such an outrageous lie .

Ok, lets make some calculations here.

On average, you, as an expierienced assembler, build a computer in 2hs (installing Windows also).

Ok you I suspect you do 8 hours a day building computers, you have the weekends off and 4 weeks of holiday and misc. things a year.


Now with those facts it would take you about 11 years and 3 months to build 10,000+ computers and these are optimistic figures. Very unlikely I would say, and considering the way you type you cant be much older than 12... But hey, maybe you were talented and started at 7 months old...

Rogo said he has built 25000 machines. Are you going to call him a liar also? I have probably built over 1000 computers since 1993 and that was in my
spare time. And it might take you 2 hours to build a computer, but it only takes 15 to 20 minutes for an experienced PC builder. The OS of course takes an additional hour or so, but not if you use disk images, sysprep, network installs and such.

Just because you can't do things, doesn't mean other people can't do them either.

 

[oldfart]

Geez. read some more of that lame FS article.

While waiting for Brandon to send me the Radeon 9800 Pro and GeForce FX 5900 Ultra for test, I used a QuadroFX 2000 because I needed a running system. You see, when I evaluate components for stability, I don?t use a dedicated test bed or specialized suite ? I force the component to work in a production system. Obviously I do a clean install of WinXP, etc. but the ?test system? and my ?primary system? for day-to-day work becomes one and the same. I install Windows, move my email and documents over, set up my ICQ and other critical applications and unplug my previous PC. This lets me pick up nuances of performance or compatibility that might otherwise be missed.

When I moved to the Radeon 9800 Pro (with clean VGA drivers), I immediately noticed something was off. My system seemed slower ? like it was a little bit laggy. I felt as if my hard drive was slightly fragmented or that my Internet connection was just a hair congested. Quick checks showed that it wasn?t so.

So, they could subjectively tell a difference between a $1500 Professional level workstation graphics card and a $300 consumer level gamers card? Thats nice. Where is the subjective difference between the 9800P and its competitor, the 5900U? None given.

They then go with

At the popular resolution of 1280x1024, even at stock clockpeeds the ATI is 21% slower than the NVIDIA!

They dont mention that this is a 9800P against a 5950U. They also dont mention that the 5900U and the 5950 are both overclocked in the "you can tell @ 1280 x 1024" graph.

The 9800P @ stock speed compared to the 5900U overclocked is only a 3% difference @ 1280 x 1024 (the focus of the performance difference). I'd say if the 5900U was not overclocked, Ati would be ahead.

Why test ATi @ stock against 5900U overclocked and 5950 overclocked? Why was the 9800P not overclocked? Why no 9800XT comparison? Why subjective feel compared with a Quadro instead of the tested cards?

This article is a joke.

 

[Maddscientist]

I got about halfway thru this thread and then skipped down to reply after this

i can see reever your not as smart (tech) as i may have thought...i have built blah blah blah 10,000 systems blah blah blah that have taken editors choice awards blah blah blah

I find it very very hard to think somebody with your experience and skills cant find the Shift key? Also you run on sentences and paragraphs remind me of a 13 year old rather than a adults! I call bullsh!t on you supposed experience and tech savy wishfull thinking. Go to bed its past your bedtime!

Edit

I would prefer that all ego's be left at the door. If his credentials are higher than most of ours, I think we should respect that.

Come on you honestly take what he says at face value? If so then you must fall for every scam out there to be so
naive.

2nd Edit [Damn next time I'll read the whole post! ]

Rogo said he has built 25000 machines. Are you going to call him a liar also?

A simple case of overexageration I would think.....He may feel like he has built that many pcs. But unless he works for a dell production line and has 100 computers pass by him everyday that is a huge amount of pcs to have claimed to have built.

[By the way I dont even know who you are talking about? ]

 

[Keysplayr]

If someone told you that they worked in a warehouse as a stockperson, would you question it? Only when someone says they do something that is
greater than what you do, is it brought into question. It all seems to be relative to you. He could be grossly exaggerating, lying, or being completely honest and truthful. For you to make comments that he is full of BS is where naivity really lives. You can't know anything about anyone in here unless they let you into their personal lives, which nobody wants to do. Please don't assume anything about anyone because the same can be done to you.

 

[Tab]

dp

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Maddscientist
I got about halfway thru this thread and then skipped down to reply after this

i can see reever your not as smart (tech) as i may have thought...i have built blah blah blah 10,000 systems blah blah blah that have taken editors choice awards blah blah blah

I find it very very hard to think somebody with your experience and skills cant find the Shift key? Also you run on sentences and paragraphs remind me of a 13 year old rather than a adults! I call bullsh!t on you supposed experience and tech savy wishfull thinking. Go to bed its past your bedtime!

LOL! He shows us his professionalism in his posts

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: cm123
look at firing s. review ... everyday use including many favorite(s) games of past also.

web surfing, photoshop, office and ...

Web surfing and office. Is this a joke? I think you're exaggerating this "2d advantage" to the Nth degree.

Originally posted by: videoclone

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
cm123 - I don't agree with 95% of what you have to say. However, I will defend to the death your right to say it .

Originally posted by: videoclone

Also, videoclone , I don't think you've brought up this Homeworld 2 issue enough. Perhaps creating a third thread about this topic is in order for you to get the message across??

lol hahaha just trying to justify buying this sheettty GeforceFX card i got lol anyways
hows things jiffylube ... you played any BF1942 Desert Combat yet ? its awsome

Heh, nope I haven't tried BF1942- it's not my cup of tea . I'm mostly playing Halo now (too bad Gearbox doesn't know how to code properly ). The GF FX isn't so bad. Not yet anyways. We will see when more and more DX9 games come out how well Nvidia can optimize their compilers. It's looking like it won't be as bad as ATI's infamous Shader Day presentation (Nvidia has improved speed in the 52.16 drivers) however a difference still exists.

Originally posted by: cm123
your right, ati has a issue (unknown yet for sure what), when fixed, what makes you think ati can hold its speed when displaying more of the picture or display correct? also what's to say nvidia won't improve there drivers etc...


its worth noting neither are perfect, yet many forget this.

cm123 - I don't really understand what you are saying, but there's a lot about drivers in there. Have you been paying attention to the architectures of the FX5900 and the 9700/9800 cards? Perhaps studying up on the differences between the two will allow you to better comprehend why ATI has such a big advantage in Pixel Shader 2.0 (and hence, directX 9 performance). It's not drivers, it's in the design.

 

[Maddscientist]

He could be grossly exaggerating, lying, or being completely honest and truthful. For you to make comments that he is full of BS is where naivity really lives

Truth on a forum is hard to pinpoint. Lets look at the facts......A person that has supposedly accomplished all that cm123 has would spend a vast amount of time on the computer. In this vast amount of time spent typing you can honestly think that he has no idea what a CAPS lock key is? Or that in the 4-6 years of tech school he must have went too he never picked up how to spell? Then you must look at his odd childish way of sentence form....Lots of his sentences dont make any sence unless you read them 5 times or so and then you can kinda see where he is coming from....kinda.

Me saying a liar is a liar is honestly not that far fetched considering the above info. If I had to guess a age for cm123 strickly from his posts I would honestly guess 13-16. Those of you who take everything @ face value keep at it hope is a virtue after all.

 

[UCSDHappyAsian]

CALM DOWN PEOPL!!!
i got used to those articles already.. thats y i only read anandtech's review.... its fair.. and the staff explains everything to the readers during the test....
a couple months ago.. when geforce fx 5900 ultra just got out and nvidia finally got his crown back... some ramdom website revealed a review, saying that ati 9700 pro beats geforce fx 5900 ultra in about all the tests... and ati 9500 pro also has the leads in some of the test over geforce fx....
i was like wtf? i thought geforce fx5900 ultra kicks @ss??? and then i realize.. ATI sponsor their website... in that case.. it was understandable..

 

[reever]

Originally posted by: UCSDHappyAsian
CALM DOWN PEOPL!!!
i got used to those articles already.. thats y i only read anandtech's review.... its fair.. and the staff explains everything to the readers during the test....
a couple months ago.. when geforce fx 5900 ultra just got out and nvidia finally got his crown back... some ramdom website revealed a review, saying that ati 9700 pro beats geforce fx 5900 ultra in about all the tests... and ati 9500 pro also has the leads in some of the test over geforce fx....
i was like wtf? i thought geforce fx5900 ultra kicks @ss??? and then i realize.. ATI sponsor their website... in that case.. it was understandable..

You would have to be extremely naive to think any of the major hardware sites are free from sponsoring money from any of the copmanies that they review

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Maddscientist

He could be grossly exaggerating, lying, or being completely honest and truthful. For you to make comments that he is full of BS is where naivity really lives

Truth on a forum is hard to pinpoint. Lets look at the facts......A person that has supposedly accomplished all that cm123 has would spend a vast amount of time on the computer. In this vast amount of time spent typing you can honestly think that he has no idea what a CAPS lock key is? Or that in the 4-6 years of tech school he must have went too he never picked up how to spell? Then you must look at his odd childish way of sentence form....Lots of his sentences dont make any sence unless you read them 5 times or so and then you can kinda see where he is coming from....kinda.

Me saying a liar is a liar is honestly not that far fetched considering the above info. If I had to guess a age for cm123 strickly from his posts I would honestly guess 13-16. Those of you who take everything @ face value keep at it hope is a virtue after all.

I understand where your coming from. But your telling us is that you are judging somebody by the way they type,do not capitalize, and have trouble with their grammar. I am not saying that he is what he says he is. But you really are just guessing at this. You cant prove your suspicion. You speak of facts when you don't have any to back up what your saying. If you suspect he's full of it, why dont you ask him if hes agreeable to answering some questions of yours to satisfy your doubts. Technical questions. He may get offended, but then again he might just do it.

Your contesting his word so I think you should be the one to do it. IMHO

 

[reever]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Maddscientist

He could be grossly exaggerating, lying, or being completely honest and truthful. For you to make comments that he is full of BS is where naivity really lives

Truth on a forum is hard to pinpoint. Lets look at the facts......A person that has supposedly accomplished all that cm123 has would spend a vast amount of time on the computer. In this vast amount of time spent typing you can honestly think that he has no idea what a CAPS lock key is? Or that in the 4-6 years of tech school he must have went too he never picked up how to spell? Then you must look at his odd childish way of sentence form....Lots of his sentences dont make any sence unless you read them 5 times or so and then you can kinda see where he is coming from....kinda.

Me saying a liar is a liar is honestly not that far fetched considering the above info. If I had to guess a age for cm123 strickly from his posts I would honestly guess 13-16. Those of you who take everything @ face value keep at it hope is a virtue after all.

I understand where your coming from. But your telling us is that you are judging somebody by the way they type,do not capitalize, and have trouble with their grammar. I am not saying that he is what he says he is. But you really are just guessing at this. You cant prove your suspicion. You speak of facts when you don't have any to back up what your saying. If you suspect he's full of it, why dont you ask him if hes agreeable to answering some questions of yours to satisfy your doubts. Technical questions. He may get offended, but then again he might just do it.

Your contesting his word so I think you should be the one to do it. IMHO

There is such a thing as being too open-minded you know

 

[BenSkywalker]

What do they mean by 2D = 3D clockspped on the 5900U?

Was this rhetorical? If not, the 59xx boards all drop their clockspeed by a significant amount when running in 2D mode so they can shut the fan down for silent operation. When you set the clockspeed of the card you have different settings for 2D and 3D. The impression I got from the article was that they set the 2D speed to match the 3D speed on the FX board. IF that impression is right then they overclocked the board to its default 3D clock. Why they would do this I'm not sure, the board running at a lower clock speed with reduced noise is a feature of the card. If it is slower so be it, if they wanted to run an article like this they should have talked about modifying the board from default and potential performance at such settings along with the drawbacks(increased heat, increased noise, the fact that the 64bit 5200 underclocked still hauls @ss in 2D ).

 

[Maddscientist]

You speak of facts when you don't have any to back up what your saying.

Im confused? Wait no no you are! Since you say I had no facts yet the facts of my theory where clearly listed?

1. All Lowercase letters
2. Bad spelling
3. His sentences are childlike

Good thing your not Sherlock Holmes eh? Checkmate conversation over....

 

[lordtyranus2]

look at firing s. review ... everyday use including many favorite(s) games of past also.

web surfing, photoshop, office and ...

http://firingsquad.com/hardware/building_gaming_opteron_2003_Part1/page6.asp (see clip below)


"When I moved to the Radeon 9800 Pro (with clean VGA drivers), I immediately noticed something was off. My system seemed slower ? like it was a little bit laggy. I felt as if my hard drive was slightly fragmented or that my Internet connection was just a hair congested. Quick checks showed that it wasn?t so.

it?s easy to discount these numbers and say that the differences are small but again, I wasn?t thinking about measuring 2D performance when I came up with this article. As I mentioned earlier, the difference in 2D speed comes across as a system that feels more responsive. Webpages appear to load just slightly faster (when in fact it?s just that the time between parsing of the HTML and rendering it to the screen that has been reduced) and windows draw faster. Even though this differences are only a split second, you should ask yourself how much time you spend browsing the ?net, how many Windows you?ve clicked/dragged, how many miles of text and images you?ve scrolled through? It?s not trivial when you add it all up"


Oh please. Even if the 9800 Pro has 2D inferior to that of the 5950, I am sure it is superior 2D to onboard video, which I had no problems with. Now, you may have a connection such that your internet access is bottlenecked by your graphics card. Unfortunately, I doubt anyone else does.

Anecdotal evidence is all you have. 1 user may have had problems with a particular 9800 Pro card. The vast majority do not.

I am sorry, but the fact that you claim windows draw faster makes me lose any faith in your argument.

 

[lordtyranus2]

Anand reccomends ATI. I am sticking with that. End of argument.

 

[lordtyranus2]

Anand reccomends ATI. I am sticking with that. End of argument.

 

[Rogodin2]

It is just hard to believe a "computer guru" when he can't spell, can't form complete sentences, can't quote any other sources besides tom (ughh), won't change his stance in the light of immutable facts, and propounds some hackneyed definition of 'democracy'.

The common denomenator is "very LOW" on public forums-hence my valid suspicion and disbelief.

My conclusion: He cut and pasted a few certs and thought he'd get a raise (not blue duns, I know the fly) and he did, but 17 year olds don't expect 25 inchers.

rogo

 

[BoberFett]

Grammar aside, this guy claims to work for Computer Reseller News. Being a publication, I would assume it has ads from vendors. By his own logic, his opinion is suspect because he's taking ad money.