Geforce4mx underperforms Geforce 3 - Benchmarks

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Dually

Golden Member
Dec 20, 2000
1,628
0
0
So, your compareing a normal Geforce class to a Geforce MX class. That is to be expected. Nvidia never makes massive leaps.
 

Actaeon

Diamond Member
Dec 28, 2000
8,657
20
76


<< We're not talking about raw power or speed, but about missing features.


If their engineers couldn't fit everything into a low-cost solution, they should have waited, as they did with the original MX.
>>




Since the features aren't even fully utilitzed on a Geforce3, Would even more features on a GF4 even make sense?

Sure, you're thinking in the future, But will those cards have enough power to run games that even use those features in Future games, if they can barly run games at the framerates we demand now? (Keep in mind, the MX 420 should be slower than a GF2 64mb, and to most people, that barly runs games at the framesrates we demand now.)
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
GeForce4 MX460:

Core clocking: 300 MHz
Memory: 64 MB 275MHz DDR SDRAM @ 275 (550MHz)
Approximate MSRP price: $199


GeForce4 MX440:

Core clocking: 270 MHz
Memory: 64 MB 200MHz DDR SDRAM (400MHz)
Approximate MSRP price: $149.


GeForce4 MX420:

Core clocking: 250 MHz
Memory: 64 MB 166 MHz SDR SDRAM
Approximate MSRP price: $69-99

OK, there are the specs, let's break it down. From the past we know that a GeForce 256 paired with DDR ram is faster than a GeForce 2 MX. Now which one cost more? Why it was the GeForce 256 with DDR! Why was this? It was because the GeForce 2 MX was meant to be a budget solution. The GeForce 2 chipset may be different from the 256 but when it is missing vital piplines and is unable to consume the large ammounts of memory bandwidth it thirsts for, then it simply cannot perform to its fullest potential. The GeForce 3 had initially stumped me upon my first glimps of its specs; 200MHz core clock and 230MHz DDR SDRAM (460MHz). I am sure many, like myself, had wondered how a GeForce 3 (that has a memory clock equal to a GeForce 2 Ultra yet a core clock 50MHz less than a GF2 Ultra) could be faster than a GeForce 2 Ultra. The GeForce 3 GPU has a design of greater complexity which in turn is much more efficient with its use of memory bandwidth. The GeForce 2 chipset certainly could still perform to challenge the GF3 or any oncomming GPU provided that the GeForce 2 had access to a memory bandwidth insanely higher than it would be affordable.

The GeForce 2 MX simply cannot perform as well as its GTS/Pro/Ti/Ultra brothers becaues it is running with only one leg where as the others are running on two.

We are going to see the same case with the GeForce 4 MX. Only running with one leg as I like to describe it. 2 pixel pipe lines instead of 4... But looking from the numbers, it looks as if the GeForce 4 MX will experience something different from when the GeForce 2 MX made its debut. Ok, a standard default clock of a GeForce 3 Ti 200 is 175MHz core, 400MHz memory. Now compare that with the GeForce 4 MX 460 with a 300MHz core and 550MHz memory. The GeForce 4 MX 460 may be only running with one leg, however that leg surely is fast. Fast enough to overtake a GF3 Ti 200 @ a default clock speed, probably not. But then we have to consider pricing. I am well aware that a respecatable GF3 Ti 200 can be found easily for about $150 for a retail boxed board, however the MSRP is still at the $199 mark, or at least that is the price I see every time I enter a local electronics store such as Worst Buy, er Best Buy. So the GeForce 4 MX will offer performance at several price points to please those that don't want to fork over $400 for an NV25 powered GeForce 4.

The fastest GeForce 4 MX may not be faster than any GeForce 3, however it will get its job done I am sure. We also have to consider that there are two more versions of the GeForce 4 MX, the 440 and 420. With the 420 being priced under $100, those boards should sell like hotcakes and perform very well considering their price. nVidia is in no way trying to replace its NV20 line up with their NV17. It is the NV12 they are looking to retire. The NV25 will take the place of the NV20...
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,001
126
think again. If you look at the graph it surely isn't 64bit memory. If it had that it wouldn't even get that close to a geforce3.

If they were using the fastest one it would still have 275 MHz memory (effective) with the crossbar memory controller and possibly even the new z-occlusion culling scheme. That puts it against the GF3's 460 MHz memory with the same crossbar controller but only the first generation z-occlusion culling which means that it could get closer than expected, especially since Macs are extremely CPU limited and don't really allow video cards to stretch their legs.

Also look at the fastest MX - it has the same memory speed as the Ti4400 which would give it the same memory bandwidth if it had 128 bit DDR. Surely nVidia wouldn't allow this since they'd have to raise the MX prices to very similar levels to the Tis because if they didn't, the MXs would butcher their Ti sales.

I'm not saying that they'll definitely use 64 bit DDR but that's my reasoning as to why I think that might be the case.

Wow, you really must have really taken my adoption of the classic doom weapon personally, bfg10k. You aren't the only one who happened to enjoy the classic. I also fail to see the correlation between self esteem and screennames.

I don't care what you do or what name you choose to give yourself and if you think you've somehow offended me then you're sadly mistaken. I don't know who you are and I don't really care either,

The fact that you are so insulted by this just goes to show how little significance your life has. Your anandtech forums persona has become so important to you, which btw is the only significant relationship you have with other people, that my adoption of that specific name is seen as a personal attack.

I'd highly advise you cut that crap out right now since I don't want to discuss the issue any further. But if you push me too far I will respond. Let's just drop the whole issue and focus on video cards. Thankyou.

The fact is that the Geforce4 mx is a POS, and that the Geforce 4mx is no were near as innovative as the Geforce 2mx was.

Let's see...a budget card that offers very competitive performance levels. I see nothing wrong with it. Like I said before, if you were expecting a GF3 killer at a lower price you're going to be disappointed.

First off, Geforce 2mx was a card that was based on the same tech as teh Geforce 2 gts line

It was still a neutered core (less rendering pipes and less DVD features) and it had extremely crippled memory.
 

EMAN

Banned
Jan 28, 2000
1,359
0
0
If they were using the fastest one it would still have 275 MHz memory (effective) with the crossbar memory controller and possibly even the new z-occlusion culling scheme. That puts it against the GF3's 460 MHz memory with the same crossbar controller but only the first generation z-occlusion culling which means that it could get closer than expected, especially since Macs are extremely CPU limited and don't really allow video cards to stretch their legs.

But they don't tell you what geforce mx4 they were using. Even if they used the fastest one you got to realize geforce 4mx has only 2 pipelines like the original radeon does. Even if they memory is at 275mhz memory it will not fully utilize all the memory bandwidth because it doesn't have enough fill rate. For example: I can raise only the core of my radeon and I still get better fps even in 1600x1200. Geforce 2 were totoally opposite. They had plenty of fill rate but not enough memory bandwidth.


Also look at the fastest MX - it has the same memory speed as the Ti4400 which would give it the same memory bandwidth if it had 128 bit DDR. Surely nVidia wouldn't allow this since they'd have to raise the MX prices to very similar levels to the Tis because if they didn't, the MXs would butcher their Ti sales.

Even if the mx460 has the same memory as the Ti4400, it still lacks fill rate, minus the Nfinite engine that would cripple the card on some games. I think Nvidia thought about this more than you did. I doubt it would hinder Ti sales unless we find a way to maybe enable Nfinite engine + overclock the core like crazy.


I'm not saying that they'll definitely use 64 bit DDR but that's my reasoning as to why I think that might be the case.

Then don't. Your information is WRONG! I had to say that. LOL
 

Mingon

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2000
3,012
0
0


<< Geforce 2 were totoally opposite. They had plenty of fill rate but not enough memory bandwidth. >>



but the mx's are a mix of geforce 2/3 and as you know the gains from overclocking a geforce 3 gpu / core are better than the results from a radeon based core. Have people seen this thread at beyond3d ? Despite the obvious bad setup of the tests it shows the mx pulling ahead of the radeon 7500 (closest competitor) at 16bit colour, this is slightly surprising as the hsr only works in 32bit. Having seen the size of the nv17m I still think a sli setup is being considered.
 

tazdevl

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2000
1,651
0
0


<< I think when customers see the price differences, they will realize which is the best card. The Ti200 cards are coming out now with 128MB of memory so it seems like it aint going anywhere. >>



128MB doesn't do diddly squat for performance. Just marketing spin to take advantage of folks that don't know better.
 

EMAN

Banned
Jan 28, 2000
1,359
0
0
but the mx's are a mix of geforce 2/3 and as you know the gains from overclocking a geforce 3 gpu / core are better than the results from a radeon based core. Have people seen this thread at beyond3d ? Despite the obvious bad setup of the tests it shows the mx pulling ahead of the radeon 7500 (closest competitor) at 16bit colour, this is slightly surprising as the hsr only works in 32bit. Having seen the size of the nv17m I still think a sli setup is being considered.

I was talking about geforce 2 not geforce4 mx. And while the technology is similar geforce 2 has more fill rate than geforce 4mx because geforce 2 has 4 pipe and mx has only 2. Of course geforce 4mx is going to slaughter radeon 7500. It has more fill rate and memory bandwidth to boot depending on the model. They were also using a 500mhz CPU and you know that Nvidia does better with slower CPU's. Nvidia has more optimized drivers so it will beat a radeon 7500 but not by much. Sli setup? I don't think Nvidia will addept to sli anytime soon.
 

Mingon

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2000
3,012
0
0
Nvdia has stated that a sli setup would be possible with the geforce card and that nv17m is about 1.5" square so two wouldnt take up much room. Its just an idea.
 

Mavrick007

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2001
3,198
0
0
I just read an article this morning which gave benchmarks comparing the new gf4 440MX to the GF3 TI200. This was from an engineering sample of an MSI board(probably the first one you will see for sale). The first results were that the gf3 was beating the pants off the gf4mx, but later benches in 3dMark2001 and Q3A were very nice. The 440MX was kicking the pants of the ti200. The fps of the benches showed a big increase over the gf3 and should only get better on a retail board with better/tweaked drivers. This was just the 440MX, but they priced it to be around $175 MSRP when it first comes out. Now if this MX board is that good, then the 460MX should really be nice and the full fledged GF4 should rock with crazy fps. They expect the GF4 to be delayed a bit while the GF4 MX comes out first cause of memory problems as well as the higher gpu speed and stability.

So I would expect that you will see the bottom 420MX to really bite, the 440MX to be a good alternative to older cards, while the 460MX should really give the ti200 a run for its money. The enthusiasts will want to snag a ti1000 or whatever they can't wait to buy.

I wish I could post the site but unfortunately it's down (see a thread on the MSI Gf4 MX in General Hardware). Hehe I guess Nvidia saw the site and yanked it quick before too many people could see it this morning.
 

EMAN

Banned
Jan 28, 2000
1,359
0
0
Mingon, Sli is possible for any card but that don't mean they are going to use that technology yet. I know ATI is working on a MAXX version of R300 chips and I'm sure Nvidia will be ready by then with a sli setup of their own. I really like the idea of how voodoo 2 was only a 3D addon card. Nvidia should have a card like geforce 4 and have a extra 3D addon card to that geforce 4. That way we can buy another card and we will have 2x the performance without buying another 2D&3D card. Sli setups lasted for a long time because of this. I hope Nvidia does this soon instead of playing games with us by releasing geforce mx4 cards that aren't even DX8 compliant.



Mavrick I read that article too but it's pointless to buy geforce4 mx card when you can get a geforce 3 ti200 for $150. The 460 model is good and has lots of potential but it's still not dx8 compliant. If we can somehow hack the card to include pixel shader but I think Nvidia took out the hardware out of those cards. But that MSI version did include lot of games that makes it hard to resist for your average joe.
 

Killrose

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 1999
6,230
8
81
Gezz....MX420,460,440,SDR this MHz, that MHz. I'm glad Ati has'nt got caught-up in such a ridiculous product namming scheme
 

Gog

Senior member
Feb 1, 2002
351
0
0
Nvidia is not helping the tech community by releasing the Geforce 4 mx series, especially gamers. Alright, so one can't complain about the performance (since its a mid range card and will probably have 70-80% performance of the Geforce3Ti200), but what is a major problem is that the card doesn't implement Directx8. Since nVidia is aiming this card at the mainstream, and assuming this card is actually adopted by oem's, we all lose. This is because software developers will see no reason to implement many of the features that DirectX8 has to offer since they aim their software at the mainstream.

No directx8 support on mainstream videocards -> no directx8 software -> ugly games.

 

Mavrick007

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2001
3,198
0
0


<< But that MSI version did include lot of games that makes it hard to resist for your average joe. >>



Man, you better believe it. The list of sweet "full retail" games that they included was very nice. There was a bunch like Aquanox and then there was a pack of 7 games, which included Serious Sam. Just for the games alone, I think it would be worth the cost. Hehe Unless you have some good "resources" for games now.
 
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