GF6 Series Video Processor controversy

[rbV5]

Others, like rbV5, think I have some hidden evil agenda. Think about it rb: what could I possibly gain from the time I've spent on this? You have issues, rbV5.

I'm just pissed about my card...simple as that, and its my card that has issues.

Its a touchy subject with me, and I've seen it go from being highly touted as a good reason to choose 6800 over x800 cards at launch by a large number of users (in theory, rightfully so...I even bought one myself), to whether its working or not is of no real consequence, or if they get some of it kinda working it should be good enough...Comments along that vein from users that care less about anything other than gaming performance are infurating to those of us who expected big things from our cards..both now and down the road.

Remember when I got a 6800NU before they were really available?

I do remember, in fact I got mine not long after yourself. You have come late to the video processor issue however, and its something I've followed closely over the last couple of months, and its damn aggravating to me.

The last couple of weeks I've read numerous posts, numerous threads, letters from Manufacturers, vendors and site owners/reviewers. I've been flamed myself for making a mountain out of a molehill, or for daring to post that the 6800 has a potentially unfixable hardware problem that Nvidia refuses to acknowlege, or to even make a public statement about.

Hopefully, this will all be sorted soon.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: rbV5
The last couple of weeks I've read numerous posts, numerous threads, letters from Manufacturers, vendors and site owners/reviewers. I've been flamed myself for making a mountain out of a molehill, or for daring to post that the 6800 has a potentially unfixable hardware problem that Nvidia refuses to acknowlege, or to even make a public statement about.

That is the only part that burns my ass, being treated like we are ingrates or rabble rousers or somethin' :thumbsdown:

We have a legitimate gripe, and everyday that passes without resolution only serves as emphasis. All we have asked for is for answers to our questions about the problems and thus far gotten very little in the way of solid feedback from nV. I trust Rollo because he has demonstrated he is man of honor who takes his word very seriously, and he is just trying to help, so I can't see any reason to rail at him though either.

 

[ronach]

I'm with virtuallarry on this one. I want what I paid for period. No slip-shod, half-baked excuse of a product that they JUST HAD to get out the door this month just to make the numbers look pretty for the stock holders meeting, then deal with the dissatisfied customers later. I have been in meetings where this sort of thing took place by order of upper management. Some of you others may have been as well. This company by the way, is no longer in business, heh, any one wonder why ?

 

[Sideswipe001]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: rbV5
The last couple of weeks I've read numerous posts, numerous threads, letters from Manufacturers, vendors and site owners/reviewers. I've been flamed myself for making a mountain out of a molehill, or for daring to post that the 6800 has a potentially unfixable hardware problem that Nvidia refuses to acknowlege, or to even make a public statement about.

That is the only part that burns my ass, being treated like we are ingrates or rabble rousers or somethin' :thumbsdown:

We have a legitimate gripe, and everyday that passes without resolution only serves as emphasis. All we have asked for is for answers to our questions about the problems and thus far gotten very little in the way of solid feedback from nV. I trust Rollo because he has demonstrated he is man of honor who takes his word very seriously, and he is just trying to help, so I can't see any reason to rail at him though either.

I agree. Rollo hasn't done anything. And in fact, Virtual Larry, we don't even know if what you're afraid of is/will happen anway. For all we know they found some illusive bug that will enable this chip on our cards and make it all work right.

In either case, don't shoot the messenger. If Rollo has inside info I want to hear it.

Wait to get mad and indignant at nVidia AFTER they screw you over with a half-assed solution. Not before.

 

[rbV5]

I trust Rollo because he has demonstrated he is man of honor who takes his word very seriously, and he is just trying to help, so I can't see any reason to rail at him though either.

True, (don't shoot the messanger....don't shoot the messanger...don't shoot the messanger).....I guess issues like this don't bring out the best in me.

So, if I've been a little over the top concerning Rollo, then appologize I do. His comments in some of these threads concerning this issue haven't been exactly sensitive to this issue however.

 

[rbV5]

Wait to get mad and indignant at nVidia AFTER they screw you over with a half-assed solution. Not before.

Cmon, these cards didn't come out yesterday. The time for getting pissed at Nvidia has long since passed, I wonder if they would even be doing anything if not for the vocal outrage by a small number of users. What we have now is a half-assed solution, what they will bring has yet to be seen, but it will be late nonetheless.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Rollo
The point I was trying to make to you is that if in use the end result is achieved, and you don't have to do anything different to achieve it, you're not really out anything.

Well, you are, if you were intending to set up some sort of HTPC/PVR setup, and intended to use the PVP for encoding/decoding purposes, while simultanously using the shaders to "clean up" the video during encoding, or "enhance/smooth/filter" the output during decoding/playback. Now it becomes an either/or situation instead. (Hypothetically-speaking, of course, based on current conjecture about the situation.)

Originally posted by: Rollo
I don't think any of us can say at this point that the PVP on every nV40 functions as originally advertised.

And if they cannot, then NV should "make good". I suggest producing an AGP bridged model using the PCI-e version of the 6800, if they can't make it work with a chip rev, and a free trade-in upgrade, or a full refund. Anything else should be unacceptable.

 

[nRollo]

And if they cannot, then NV should "make good". I suggest producing an AGP bridged model using the PCI-e version of the 6800, if they can't make it work with a chip rev, and a free trade-in upgrade, or a full refund. Anything else should be unacceptable.

Good luck with that one, no offense intended.
Let's assume worst case scenario: Speculation is correct and the WMV will never work, it's non functional.
You've clearly been denied an aspect of functionality you paid for, but it's one of many on the checklist of features.
If you're nVidia, what do you do as the manufacturer of the chips? Tell your OEMs you'll pay them to replace every 6800 in existence?
Every OCer in the country would use it as an opportunity to get a new card.
Every person who is sick of their nVidia card and felt like trying an ATI card would return it for a refund and buy one.
Many would return them for the much higher early adopter and gouger prices they paid, get a refund, buy another and pocket the profit.

I can hear you saying "So what? nVidia is a big company they have to pay for their mistakes!"
Wouldn't work that way, I guarantee it. You're talking millions of dollars, and a functionality of the card most people probably don't even care about.

I'll put it this way: When I buy a house, I don't get a refund if I find a crack in the wall or a shower doesn't work. McDonald's may give you a new $1.29 hamburger, but I doubt nVidia will give you $400..

In any case, I think people will be much happier soon in regard to this issue.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Rollo

And if they cannot, then NV should "make good". I suggest producing an AGP bridged model using the PCI-e version of the 6800, if they can't make it work with a chip rev, and a free trade-in upgrade, or a full refund. Anything else should be unacceptable.

Good luck with that one, no offense intended.
Let's assume worst case scenario: Speculation is correct and the WMV will never work, it's non functional.
You've clearly been denied an aspect of functionality you paid for, but it's one of many on the checklist of features.
If you're nVidia, what do you do as the manufacturer of the chips? Tell your OEMs you'll pay them to replace every 6800 in existence?
Every OCer in the country would use it as an opportunity to get a new card.
Every person who is sick of their nVidia card and felt like trying an ATI card would return it for a refund and buy one.
Many would return them for the much higher early adopter and gouger prices they paid, get a refund, buy another and pocket the profit.

I can hear you saying "So what? nVidia is a big company they have to pay for their mistakes!"
Wouldn't work that way, I guarantee it. You're talking millions of dollars, and a functionality of the card most people probably don't even care about.

So you think that it is totally acceptable, if it turns out that the PVP hardware that people paid for is defunct, for NVidia to:
1) Get away with defrauding their customers, and
2) make excuses, so that they can
3) shirk their responsibilities in making it right, if it turns out to be true?

What an interesting attitude, Rollo, especially coming from someone who comes down so hard on people attempting to RMA their video cards after overclocking them ("thief", "fraud"), and also claiming to stand up for "values" ("be a man", etc). I guess money is more important than principles to you, based on your responses above. ("You're talking millions of dollars" - yes, of the customer's money. Are they getting what they paid for? Not yet, at least.)

Yes, the story is quite different, when NV is in the spotlight of responsibility here...

Btw, does "Intel Pentium FDIV Recall" mean anything to you?

(Ironically, Intel initially took the same stance, that only scientists would ever need to accurately perform floating-point division, since the vast majority of users only executed integer-based code. Eventually, they issued a recall and a replacement. I expect no less from NVidia, if it turns out that the hardware is in fact defective.)

Originally posted by: Rollo
I'll put it this way: When I buy a house, I don't get a refund if I find a crack in the wall or a shower doesn't work. McDonald's may give you a new $1.29 hamburger, but I doubt nVidia will give you $400..

In any case, I think people will be much happier soon in regard to this issue.

I certainly hope so, really I do.

Btw, just a little snippet from a few months back, about other "issues" involving ATI.

Originally posted by: Rollo
1. ATI lied to me and everyone else about their trilinear, while intentionally trying to deceive the press to make their parts look better.
2. When caught, they re-defined trilinear so they could say "We didn't lie". (Must have been watching Clinton's impeachment when he explained how he didn't have sex with Monica)
3. Brought out the same damn part three calendar years in a row. I won't buy it next year either, if they try to trot it out yet again.
4. Lost edge on features.
5. Didn't offer answer to SLI
6. Brought nothing to the table for my favorite game in the last few years, Doom3. Will likely lag at it's licenses, which I will buy.

Enough?

Seems like a bit of a different attitude, doesn't it? Better XYZ, Rollo, your "bias" is showing...

 

[nRollo]

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth Virtual Larry- I never said I thought it was "OK", I just don't think you're going to see full price cash refunds or card replacements.

I really don't think any of this is an issue Virtual Larry, so there's no reason to debate it. In a short while you should become Happy Larry.

I won't discuss my reasons for skipping this gen of ATI in this thread, it's off topic and unwelcome. I don't really care if you think I'm "biased", I'll buy more ATI cards over the course of my life than you'll buy cards in total. (it could be I already have as I think I've bought around 10 of their best)

 

[y0bailey]

man you guys crapped up rollos thread in a heartbeat.

1) He never said that NV is making a "workaround" or ghetto rigging the processor. We know the video processor is programmable, i highly doubt they can't make it work to some percentage of what is promised. hopefully that percentage is 100.
2) If they do get it working through a "workaround," about 99% of us will be happy. I don't care how they do it, just make my CPU usage go down. SO stop crapping up the thread with 3 pages of petty BS, and lets stick to the KNOWN facts and updates.
3) i hate you all, but love fat girls.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry

Originally posted by: Rollo

And if they cannot, then NV should "make good". I suggest producing an AGP bridged model using the PCI-e version of the 6800, if they can't make it work with a chip rev, and a free trade-in upgrade, or a full refund. Anything else should be unacceptable.

Good luck with that one, no offense intended.
Let's assume worst case scenario: Speculation is correct and the WMV will never work, it's non functional.
You've clearly been denied an aspect of functionality you paid for, but it's one of many on the checklist of features.
If you're nVidia, what do you do as the manufacturer of the chips? Tell your OEMs you'll pay them to replace every 6800 in existence?
Every OCer in the country would use it as an opportunity to get a new card.
Every person who is sick of their nVidia card and felt like trying an ATI card would return it for a refund and buy one.
Many would return them for the much higher early adopter and gouger prices they paid, get a refund, buy another and pocket the profit.

I can hear you saying "So what? nVidia is a big company they have to pay for their mistakes!"
Wouldn't work that way, I guarantee it. You're talking millions of dollars, and a functionality of the card most people probably don't even care about.

So you think that it is totally acceptable, if it turns out that the PVP hardware that people paid for is defunct, for NVidia to:
1) Get away with defrauding their customers, and
2) make excuses, so that they can
3) shirk their responsibilities in making it right, if it turns out to be true?

What an interesting attitude, Rollo, especially coming from someone who comes down so hard on people attempting to RMA their video cards after overclocking them ("thief", "fraud"), and also claiming to stand up for "values" ("be a man", etc). I guess money is more important than principles to you, based on your responses above. ("You're talking millions of dollars" - yes, of the customer's money. Are they getting what they paid for? Not yet, at least.)

Yes, the story is quite different, when NV is in the spotlight of responsibility here...

Btw, does "Intel Pentium FDIV Recall" mean anything to you?

(Ironically, Intel initially took the same stance, that only scientists would ever need to accurately perform floating-point division, since the vast majority of users only executed integer-based code. Eventually, they issued a recall and a replacement. I expect no less from NVidia, if it turns out that the hardware is in fact defective.)

Originally posted by: Rollo
I'll put it this way: When I buy a house, I don't get a refund if I find a crack in the wall or a shower doesn't work. McDonald's may give you a new $1.29 hamburger, but I doubt nVidia will give you $400..

In any case, I think people will be much happier soon in regard to this issue.

I certainly hope so, really I do.

Btw, just a little snippet from a few months back, about other "issues" involving ATI.

Originally posted by: Rollo
1. ATI lied to me and everyone else about their trilinear, while intentionally trying to deceive the press to make their parts look better.
2. When caught, they re-defined trilinear so they could say "We didn't lie". (Must have been watching Clinton's impeachment when he explained how he didn't have sex with Monica)
3. Brought out the same damn part three calendar years in a row. I won't buy it next year either, if they try to trot it out yet again.
4. Lost edge on features.
5. Didn't offer answer to SLI
6. Brought nothing to the table for my favorite game in the last few years, Doom3. Will likely lag at it's licenses, which I will buy.

Enough?

Seems like a bit of a different attitude, doesn't it? Better XYZ, Rollo, your "bias" is showing...

Did you happen to check your 6800 and see if the PVP works Virtual Larry? If so, what were your results percentage wise of processor usage? What drivers your using, and version of Windows media player.
-Thanks

 

[dacull]

What I would like to know is why are we having to scrabble for every bit of "leaked news" from people who know people who know people who may or may not work inside Nvidia.

I want to see a statement from Nvidia about this. Otherwise it is all guess work.

As for a recall of specific cards affected by the problem, the manufacture of the card doesnt really cost that much, it is the R'n'D that goes into that costs the money.

As they already have a fix for the VPU problem in the 6600 and 6800 PCIe im sure they could retrofit that onto the original 6800 core, and mass produce that as a fix. Sure it would cost alot of money, but Intel had to do the same with the FDIV bug, and they didn't die from it.

I just want some up front honest about it instead of the loud silence we have now. Something like
"Yep we screwed up, your VPU isn't working as it should, we are working to fix this, we will get back to you".

I'm sure people who pushed the point with NVidia would get some kind of replacement ..

 

[carage]

Originally posted by: dacull
What I would like to know is why are we having to scrabble for every bit of "leaked news" from people who know people who know people who may or may not work inside Nvidia.

I want to see a statement from Nvidia about this. Otherwise it is all guess work.

As for a recall of specific cards affected by the problem, the manufacture of the card doesnt really cost that much, it is the R'n'D that goes into that costs the money.

As they already have a fix for the VPU problem in the 6600 and 6800 PCIe im sure they could retrofit that onto the original 6800 core, and mass produce that as a fix. Sure it would cost alot of money, but Intel had to do the same with the FDIV bug, and they didn't die from it.

I just want some up front honest about it instead of the loud silence we have now. Something like
"Yep we screwed up, your VPU isn't working as it should, we are working to fix this, we will get back to you".

I'm sure people who pushed the point with NVidia would get some kind of replacement ..

On one part, I agree with you. nVidia should come out with a clear stance and tell us exactly what they plan to do to fix this. They owe us an explanation. Consumers should have confidence that their products will work right out of the box not three months later with a patch.
On the other hand, do you know how tiny nVidia is compared to Intel? Intel is worth over 147 billion, nVidia is valued at 2.9 billion. I am not arguing for nVidia, I am just saying that Intel can do a total product recall without hurting too much does not mean nVidia can do the same thing without permanent consequences.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: dacull
What I would like to know is why are we having to scrabble for every bit of "leaked news" from people who know people who know people who may or may not work inside Nvidia.

I want to see a statement from Nvidia about this. Otherwise it is all guess work.

As for a recall of specific cards affected by the problem, the manufacture of the card doesnt really cost that much, it is the R'n'D that goes into that costs the money.

As they already have a fix for the VPU problem in the 6600 and 6800 PCIe im sure they could retrofit that onto the original 6800 core, and mass produce that as a fix. Sure it would cost alot of money, but Intel had to do the same with the FDIV bug, and they didn't die from it.

I just want some up front honest about it instead of the loud silence we have now. Something like
"Yep we screwed up, your VPU isn't working as it should, we are working to fix this, we will get back to you".

I'm sure people who pushed the point with NVidia would get some kind of replacement ..

You were promised SM3 functionality as well, and how long was it until you had a use for that? Would you rather they waited until the programming for the VPU was ready to release the cards?
I sure wouldn't- I can watch a frickin' video with 75% cpu utilization on my card the way it is now. I couldn't have played Doom 3 right with a last gen card?

 

[dacull]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: dacull
What I would like to know is why are we having to scrabble for every bit of "leaked news" from people who know people who know people who may or may not work inside Nvidia.

I want to see a statement from Nvidia about this. Otherwise it is all guess work.

As for a recall of specific cards affected by the problem, the manufacture of the card doesnt really cost that much, it is the R'n'D that goes into that costs the money.

As they already have a fix for the VPU problem in the 6600 and 6800 PCIe im sure they could retrofit that onto the original 6800 core, and mass produce that as a fix. Sure it would cost alot of money, but Intel had to do the same with the FDIV bug, and they didn't die from it.

I just want some up front honest about it instead of the loud silence we have now. Something like
"Yep we screwed up, your VPU isn't working as it should, we are working to fix this, we will get back to you".

I'm sure people who pushed the point with NVidia would get some kind of replacement ..

You were promised SM3 functionality as well, and how long was it until you had a use for that? Would you rather they waited until the programming for the VPU was ready to release the cards?
I sure wouldn't- I can watch a frickin' video with 75% cpu utilization on my card the way it is now. I couldn't have played Doom 3 right with a last gen card?

Hi Rollo,
First - thanks for letting us know your little tid-bit of info, it is appreciated

Yes I think they should have waited before releasing it (and by programming I guess you mean Tape out on the core because from what I know this is a hardware ASIC bug).

I come from the old school, where things should just do what they say on the tin, not the "first to market madness" that we see today. But that's just me.

The VPU problem does affect me alot actually, I cant play wmvs without losing frames as cpu is constant 100% (and that applies to some other video codecs also). I also tend to use TV out on my card, and rendering two video streams appears to make this problem even worse! I have a low tolerance level for frame drops in video sadly

I think it is reasonable to expect people to use their cards for both games and video, it is a PC card after all. Infact my supplier actually plugs it as a Video rich card.

From the box
'Accelerated DVD playback with enhanced motion compensation in hardware . A powerful package of Video Editing Software included'

Anyway I digress, the main point of my post is that I don't like 'deafening silence' from nvidia , but I guess they have no option as they might implicate themselves.

we can just wait and see what they come up with.. I don't care what hardware they use to solve the problem ..

 

[rbV5]

You were promised SM3 functionality as well, and how long was it until you had a use for that?

Video's were available to decode long before NV40 was released, video encoding could have been performed as soon as the card was installed in your rig...not even close to the same situation.

If a number of SM3.0 games were available at launch, there would have been rioting outside NV headquarters if SM3.0 hadn't been enabled untill Nvidias first SM3.0 enabled drivers months later and you know it.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Rollo == The Man
rbV5 & VirtualLarry == Cattle-Prod Up The Ass

Stop arguing with Rollo just 'cuz you all have different opinions on what should be done. He's trying to help by giving us info. You're.........................being dickheads?

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
Rollo == The Man
rbV5 & VirtualLarry == Cattle-Prod Up The Ass

Stop arguing with Rollo just 'cuz you all have different opinions on what should be done. He's trying to help by giving us info. You're.........................being dickheads?

Its a "discussion" forum, if you don't like it, don't read it asswipe.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
Rollo == The Man
rbV5 & VirtualLarry == Cattle-Prod Up The Ass

Stop arguing with Rollo just 'cuz you all have different opinions on what should be done. He's trying to help by giving us info. You're.........................being dickheads?

Its a "discussion" forum, if you don't like it, don't read it asswipe.

Rollo could have posted his "information" in either of the 2 already running threads on this issue (he also has posts in those threads) but decided to start his own thread. If he, or anyone else is going to add their comments they should be prepared to hear my thoughts on the matter, I doubt anyone has posted more on this issue than myself starting back in April. I'll answer to my posts myself, I'll leave VirtualLarry and anyone else to answer for theirs. You or anyone else isn't going to tell me how I should feel about this issue, I'll make my own mind up and I'll debate it as well.

 

[ponyo]

I'm going to take the I'll believe it when I see it approach. I have very little faith in this matter getting resolved.

 

[Jagercola]

What's the latest? You guys think they will do nothing, a recall, a fix using pixel shaders to help decode?

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: Jagercola
What's the latest? You guys think they will do nothing, a recall, a fix using pixel shaders to help decode?

The latest is that Nvidia will release a driver this month to enable the video processor.

 

[Acanthus]

everyone loves to bash you rollo.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
everyone loves to bash you rollo.

A couple of nutjobs do that's for sure.

I post the inside scoop on this issue straight from nVidia, weeks before anyone is going to find out, and I get:

"Waah. He posted it in the wrong thread."
"Waah. Make sure you never get inside info again by posting documentation, break your word to your friend"
"Waah. I want to debate you on the way the fix might be."
:roll:

Sheesh. I swear I could PayPal these guys $100. as a gift and I'd get:
"Waah. You used your credit card so it cost me $3, can you send it?"
"Waah. I don't like PayPal."
"Waah. I need $200 for the case I want, can you send another $100.?"
:roll: :roll: