Global Warming.. Real?

[Enig101]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
It's happening, we might be helping it along, but it would happen regardless of if we exist or not. So I vote yes/no.

In the earth's history there have been times where the poles have been barren of ice. This will happen again and it may be sooner than we like.

The Earth does have climate shifts, nobody is saying it is static. However there has been a dramatic shift in temperatures coinciding with the human production of carbon dioxide. Coincidence? I think not.

At worst, too much climate change could cause the Earth to tip back into an ice age. I don't really need to explain how bad that could be given the Earth's current population.

 

[jrenz]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: jrenz

Originally posted by: conjur
Wow...just....wow.

That guy is really reaching to try and disprove her and only makes himself look like an idiot (as well anyone using him to rebut her analysis).

Yeah, I guess there is no room for peer-reviews in your truthy world.

His statement that only 2% "explicitly" endorse the 'consensus view' is meaningless and does nothing to further his argument considering Oreskes' argument was NOT based solely upon article "explicitly" endorsing the 'consensus view'.

It's not significant? What world do you live in? When somebody makes a claim that the overwhelming majority of scientists agree with something, and then only 2% of a sample group explicitly agree, I would call that significant. Coupled with the fact that she ignored a few papers which explicitly disagreed with her, I would say it is very significant.

Naomi's claims were that many were explicit and implicit.

She also claimed that over 75% of the papers fell into this category, when only around 30% actually did.

Not as significant though as the part which you chose to ignore, referencing the fact that he vast majority of abstracts do not deal with or mention anthropogenic global warming whatsoever. Wouldn't you say that's significant?

No, because your boy seems to want to engage in logical fallacies.

[/quote]

That's ok, don't bother explaining yourself... I know you can't.

 

[umbrella39]

Not surprising to see the usual suspects with their head buried firmly up their ass over this topic. I have asked before and I will ask again, what do you possible have to gain by denying the truth? Put your GD party affiliation or whatever it is that keeps you stupid aside for one minute of your lives and start thinking with your head and not your ass. But I understand how in some of your cases, your head being up your own ass can lead to some confusion. Grow up FFS.

 

[dullard]

I didn't read the thread, and I'm not coming back because I've argued this in other threads. But I will leave my opinion:

(1) Global climate change is real. We are partially responsible for the climate change.
(2) But, global warming as is popularly thought to be is not real. That is, there are many easilly proven inconsistencies in the popular belief of global warming.
(3) However, just because you incorrectly identify the cause and/or exaggerate the extent of an event, doesn't mean that event doesn't exist.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: fitzov

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: XZeroII
There is a lot of debate on the issue, despite what the fear mongers would have you believe.

Yes, there is a lot of debate. However there is no debate among those qualified to analyze it.

Exactly.

928 peer-reviewed papers and not one dissenting on the findings, based on scientific knowledge now, that global warming does exist.

Yeah, but in the world of politics, a peer-reviewed journal article is no different from a Robert Novak editorial.

No, the issue is that the in the world of politics you have millions of panic-stricken sheep screaming in terror that something must be done right now about a problem that is actually not that new.

 

[Genx87]

Do I believe in global warming? Sure it has happened in the past. What I disagree with is the fear mongering blind sheep mentality of people to believe we are the sole cause of it and can actually stop it if we suddenly go back to the 1400s technology wise.

Until we can answer why in the past Greenland had a much more temperate climate hundreds of years before the advent of the combustion engine, or why there were oceans in the plains of the United States. I dont think anybody can accurately say we are the sole reason.

I also think this has turned political. You have forces that dont like the western way of life. Individual freedom to drive a car from one place to the next. In order for them to enact their plans they need something to scare the masses up and global warming fits their bill perfect. Tell them cities will flood, millions will die from starvation, then get to work implementing you plan.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Do I believe in global warming? Sure it has happened in the past.

Really? Perhaps you'd like to show some evidence of that?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Do I believe in global warming? Sure it has happened in the past.

Really? Perhaps you'd like to show some evidence of that?

You really telling us you dont think the earth has ever gone through warm and cold periods over its billions of years?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Do I believe in global warming? Sure it has happened in the past. What I disagree with is the fear mongering blind sheep mentality of people to believe we are the sole cause of it and can actually stop it if we suddenly go back to the 1400s technology wise.

Until we can answer why in the past Greenland had a much more temperate climate hundreds of years before the advent of the combustion engine, or why there were oceans in the plains of the United States. I dont think anybody can accurately say we are the sole reason.

I also think this has turned political. You have forces that dont like the western way of life. Individual freedom to drive a car from one place to the next. In order for them to enact their plans they need something to scare the masses up and global warming fits their bill perfect. Tell them cities will flood, millions will die from starvation, then get to work implementing you plan.

I don't think it's anything that nefarious, Genx. Issues like these, when turned political, are just another way for people to live their lives vicariously. They're going to fix the rest of us because they're unhappy and they don't know how to fix themselves. If it seems like they don't like the western way of life, it's not because they would prefer another way of life.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Do I believe in global warming? Sure it has happened in the past.

Really? Perhaps you'd like to show some evidence of that?

It is not a matter of dispute that the earth has gone through warming and cooling periods in the past. And not just in distant prehistory, but even in recorded times.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Do I believe in global warming? Sure it has happened in the past.

Really? Perhaps you'd like to show some evidence of that?

You really telling us you dont think the earth has ever gone through warm and cold periods over its billions of years?

Your post is full of contradictions, strawmen and BS, so let me break it down to you, then explain why its wrong and why the opposite is the correct course of action.

Originally posted by: Genx87
Do I believe in global warming? Sure it has happened in the past. What I disagree with is the fear mongering blind sheep mentality of people to believe we are the sole cause of it and can actually stop it if we suddenly go back to the 1400s technology wise.

Until we can answer why in the past Greenland had a much more temperate climate hundreds of years before the advent of the combustion engine, or why there were oceans in the plains of the United States. I dont think anybody can accurately say we are the sole reason.

I also think this has turned political. You have forces that dont like the western way of life. Individual freedom to drive a car from one place to the next. In order for them to enact their plans they need something to scare the masses up and global warming fits their bill perfect. Tell them cities will flood, millions will die from starvation, then get to work implementing you plan.

-The earth has indeed gone through drastic changes in its billions of years, including times when there was no oxygen and the place was unsuitable for human life, so arguing on that timescale is kinda useless and distracts from the topic.
-take a look at this and tell me its a geological event: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png
-No one wants 1400s technology, strawman.
-No one hates the 'western lifestyle', another strawman.
-Cars.. another strawman.
-vast global scientific conspiracy... do they even have names for arguments this stupid?


Let me lay out a more rational view.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png this is not a natural event.
-research tells us that increased CO2 concentrations will lead to increased tempratures.
-studies show that increased temperatures will lead to many disruptions.
-what those urging action want is to essentially buy insurance so that we can keep our way of life, not have be disrupted and changed radically.

I assume you have things like health, car, home and dental insurance? Why do you have those? After all, paying hundreds a month certainly decreases your standard of living by limiting your ability to buy trinkets and such. Its because you know the possibilities are real and you're responsible.

Yet, when people show you the possibilities of global warming are real, when they show you examples of ecological distruptions and their effects on past societies, and ask you to buy some insurance, all of a sudden you balk. Why?

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Do I believe in global warming? Sure it has happened in the past.

Really? Perhaps you'd like to show some evidence of that?

It is not a matter of dispute that the earth has gone through warming and cooling periods in the past. And not just in distant prehistory, but even in recorded times.

Certainly there has never been any dispute that it has gone through natural warming and cooling. However, I'd like evidence that this has happened in the past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png

You may think I parade that link around too much (after all, 3 times in the last 2 posts), but it really can't be ignored. If people who claim this isn't caused by humans want to convince rational people that they're right, they have to do one of two things.
-provide a counter-example another such event occuring in the past.
-provide an alternate explanation of why this occured.

They have not done either of those and they're not trying. They're irrational reactionaries, nothing more.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Do I believe in global warming? Sure it has happened in the past.

Really? Perhaps you'd like to show some evidence of that?

It is not a matter of dispute that the earth has gone through warming and cooling periods in the past. And not just in distant prehistory, but even in recorded times.

Certainly there has never been any dispute that it has gone through natural warming and cooling. However, I'd like evidence that this has happened in the past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png

You may think I parade that link around too much (after all, 3 times in the last 2 posts), but it really can't be ignored. If people who claim this isn't caused by humans want to convince rational people that they're right, they have to do one of two things.
-provide a counter-example another such event occuring in the past.
-provide an alternate explanation of why this occured.

They have not done either of those and they're not trying. They're irrational reactionaries, nothing more.

Global warming is a general term, that includes the possibility of both natural and unnatural occurences.

And about that link. Would you reference Wiki for an academic project?

 

[ITJunkie]

yes it's real.
yes we are contributing and shoulder some responsibility. There are natural cycles that contribute too but we damn sure aren't helping the situation. Hopefully, that will change.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Do I believe in global warming? Sure it has happened in the past.

Really? Perhaps you'd like to show some evidence of that?

It is not a matter of dispute that the earth has gone through warming and cooling periods in the past. And not just in distant prehistory, but even in recorded times.

Certainly there has never been any dispute that it has gone through natural warming and cooling. However, I'd like evidence that this has happened in the past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png

You may think I parade that link around too much (after all, 3 times in the last 2 posts), but it really can't be ignored. If people who claim this isn't caused by humans want to convince rational people that they're right, they have to do one of two things.
-provide a counter-example another such event occuring in the past.
-provide an alternate explanation of why this occured.

They have not done either of those and they're not trying. They're irrational reactionaries, nothing more.

Global warming is a general term, that includes the possibility of both natural and unnatural occurences.

And about that link. Would you reference Wiki for an academic project?

I like that image because they zoom in on the last 1000 years to drive the point home. Every source will give you the same picture of CO2 concentrations (we know there are always minor variations between samples) but I invite you to show me something different.

Again, its really easy to show that human's haven't caused this, the reason no one has done it is because they can't.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Do I believe in global warming? Sure it has happened in the past.

Really? Perhaps you'd like to show some evidence of that?

It is not a matter of dispute that the earth has gone through warming and cooling periods in the past. And not just in distant prehistory, but even in recorded times.

Certainly there has never been any dispute that it has gone through natural warming and cooling. However, I'd like evidence that this has happened in the past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png

You may think I parade that link around too much (after all, 3 times in the last 2 posts), but it really can't be ignored. If people who claim this isn't caused by humans want to convince rational people that they're right, they have to do one of two things.
-provide a counter-example another such event occuring in the past.
-provide an alternate explanation of why this occured.

They have not done either of those and they're not trying. They're irrational reactionaries, nothing more.

Global warming is a general term, that includes the possibility of both natural and unnatural occurences.

And about that link. Would you reference Wiki for an academic project?

I like that image because they zoom in on the last 1000 years to drive the point home. Every source will give you the same picture of CO2 concentrations (we know there are always minor variations between samples) but I invite you to show me something different.

Again, its really easy to show that human's have caused this, the reason no one has done it is because they can't.

You realize that CO2 isn't even remotely the worst of the greenhouse gases, right?

I think you mistyped your last sentence BTW, as it makes no sense. However, let me ask you a question... when the earth warmed out of the last ice age 12,000 years ago, when glaciers 3 miles deep covered the earth to the 45th latitude, did humans cause that?
I am not BTW arguing for or against your little bit here. I simply disagree with the way you are presenting your argument.

 

[Grabo]

Originally posted by: Vic

You realize that CO2 isn't even remotely the worst of the greenhouse gases, right?

Then which one is? Water. Are humans adding vast amounts of water to the atmosphere every day? Nope.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Do I believe in global warming? Sure it has happened in the past.

Really? Perhaps you'd like to show some evidence of that?

It is not a matter of dispute that the earth has gone through warming and cooling periods in the past. And not just in distant prehistory, but even in recorded times.

Certainly there has never been any dispute that it has gone through natural warming and cooling. However, I'd like evidence that this has happened in the past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png

You may think I parade that link around too much (after all, 3 times in the last 2 posts), but it really can't be ignored. If people who claim this isn't caused by humans want to convince rational people that they're right, they have to do one of two things.
-provide a counter-example another such event occuring in the past.
-provide an alternate explanation of why this occured.

They have not done either of those and they're not trying. They're irrational reactionaries, nothing more.

Global warming is a general term, that includes the possibility of both natural and unnatural occurences.

And about that link. Would you reference Wiki for an academic project?

I like that image because they zoom in on the last 1000 years to drive the point home. Every source will give you the same picture of CO2 concentrations (we know there are always minor variations between samples) but I invite you to show me something different.

Again, its really easy to show that human's have caused this, the reason no one has done it is because they can't.

You realize that CO2 isn't even remotely the worst of the greenhouse gases, right?

I think you mistyped your last sentence BTW, as it makes no sense. However, let me ask you a question... when the earth warmed out of the last ice age 12,000 years ago, when glaciers 3 miles deep covered the earth to the 45th latitude, did humans cause that?
I am not BTW arguing for or against your little bit here. I simply disagree with the way you are presenting your argument.

Yes, its not the only one nor the worst (in terms of effectiveness), but because of its vast quantity its the one that contributes the most and gets the most attention. For example, CO2 is at ~380ppm while methane is at 1.7ppm. Treaties, laws, frameworks etc all focus on greenhouse gases, but for purposes of informal discussions, talking only about CO2 is fine as it saves on redundancies and long windedness (such as this paragraph).

And yes, that should read "haven't caused", and while the argument may not be up to scientific journal standards, its succinct and good enough for forum posts.

 

[BlancoNino]

Should we be so cavalier as to give up our advancements in technology that have allowed us to live as freely, safely, comfortably, and timely as we do today?

 

[desy]

I'm 3 doors down from a PHD climatologist.
He is convinced global warming is real and occuring quickly 'as climate changes go'. Why? Probably us, catastrophic?
Maybe, all depends if your fond of the 'tipping point' argument or not.

 

[Fern]

Is Global warming real, and are we the responsible?

I, like some others here, am of the opnion that the Earth does go through climitoligical (sp?) cycles. Whether or not any current cycle will prove significant is, IMHO, still an open question. When I was much younger science was certain we were facing a cooling trend, not a warming trend like now.

I have lived through so much, "butter is bad, margerine is good", no wait "margerine is bad, butter is good" type scientific reversals I remain doubtful that they have the ability to accurately gauge/forcast such trends. I.e., I really doubt the scientific community has "cracked" the all the complicated "secrets" of the Earth. Time has taught me to be very sceptical of anyone who says they have.

Are we the cause? Notwithstanding the above question, I do not find it hard to belive that we humans have some effect, the unresolved question in my mind is "how much"?. We (humans) tend to overestimate our presence in every possible way, and underestimate the impact of natural forces. I am doubtful our impact is as great as claimed, and doubtful of the ability of present day science's to both accurately identify all factors involved in any changes as well as understand the complexity of the interrelationships of such factors.

It was much simpler when I was in college. I just believed in what the "experts" taught us.

Fern

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Should we be so cavalier as to give up our advancements in technology that have allowed us to live as freely, safely, comfortably, and timely as we do today?

We don't have to give up our advancements in technology. They're not saying we should be living back in the stone age. What they are saying is that we should decrease the amount of CO2 output per person. There are a number of ways to due this like increase the average MPG a car gets, start replacing coal plants with less polluting power sources, etc. These wouldn't move us back in technology by any means.

Should we really wait until we are absolutely sure about this? The worst case scenario if we try to stop/slow global warming is that we make use of energy sources that pollute less. It may cost a little more in the short run but it may pay off big time in the long run. I'd prefer to err on the side of caution rather than ignoring the problem until we get all the kinks worked out.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Should we be so cavalier as to give up our advancements in technology that have allowed us to live as freely, safely, comfortably, and timely as we do today?

The funny thing here is that advancement always trend to more and more environmentally friendly. Imagine if there were 200 millions sh!tting horses in the US instead of 200 millions cars!! Think of the foul black smoke spouting factories of yesterday compared to the (comparitively) sparkling clean factories of today. Look at where pollution is the worst in this world compared to where it is best. Going backwards, technology-wise, would be the worst thing we could do for the environment. What we must do is push technological advancement further forward past this issue.
This is so factually open-your-eyes-to-the-real-world obvious I don't even know what to say beyond that.

 

[oldman420]

I feel that we as humans are somewhat like a viral infection to the planet. Our activities create a waste stream that is making the planet sick and now it is getting a fever that may or may not burn enough of us off to reduce the waste stream to a tolerable level. Maybe that I am pessimistic or maybe a realist only time will tell. The sad part is that the ones who will suffer most are the poor and 3rd world.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: oldman420
I feel that we as humans are somewhat like a viral infection to the planet. Our activities create a waste stream that is making the planet sick and now it is getting a fever that may or may not burn enough of us off to reduce the waste stream to a tolerable level. Maybe that I am pessimistic or maybe a realist only time will tell. The sad part is that the ones who will suffer most are the poor and 3rd world.

To believe that you would have to believe that humans are somehow radically differently from the rest of life on earth, or that all life on earth is somehow evil.
We (humans) are animals with opposable thumbs and the brains to use those thumbs. Much like birds have wings and are built to fly, we are the evolutionary result of life on earth. Nothing more, nothing less.
Time is not required in order to tell if you are a pessimist or a realist, just compare your last sentence with your first.