gun nutters . . . . scary stuff!

[Lithium381]

http://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/Cit..._Gun_Deaths_A_Year__What_Is_Our_Role_.11.aspx

exclude urban chicago and new york, maybe a few others and we're probably in range of average, take out youth drug/gang related deaths and we're doing pretty welL!

 

[Orignal Earl]

exclude urban chicago and new york, maybe a few others and we're probably in range of average, take out youth drug/gang related deaths and we're doing pretty welL!

lol, yup...
If you ignore a bunch of the numbers, the US does great

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Why would you think that's nice?
That's pretty horrible to most people

Ahh, you posted this in two threads. That explains things. As I said this is a statistic which demonstrates nothing. Where life is cheap it's taken by whatever means is at hand. Around the world where guns aren't to be had the machete is a weapon of choice. There are far more murders done with them than any firearm. Violent people will just change tactics. The means of murder are far less relevant than that it happens in the first place. If I find it acceptable to kill you then I can do so. That's the real problem which people ignore in favor of the magical belief that things will change if only we eliminated guns. No, the inner city won't just go away.

 

[PJABBER]

http://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/Cit..._Gun_Deaths_A_Year__What_Is_Our_Role_.11.aspx

That article does not support the claim being made.

The claim seems to be originated by Bill Weir for ABC here and whole lot of left wing and progressive media outlets and forum dwellers have popped up like gophers and just happen to use those exact same words.

Not a single one of whom, however, seems to have a link to the actual study.

Can you link the actual study where this conclusion is drawn from, because I sure can't from a cursory Google search.

 

[Arglebargle]

Thought this commentary was pretty cogent on the problems that occur in discussing gun violence, after a major shooting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18877454

Guns are force multipliers. With more around, they will be used. Figuring out a reasonable balance of rights and restrictions shouldn't be as tough as it is.

Of course, I was an NRA Junior Sharpshooter and had my first fully automatic weapon at 13, so my perception of it might be a little skewed.

 

[Modelworks]

Every time anything bad happens people do the thing they think will fix it the easiest. 9/11 happens, oh we can fix that by inspections at airports, shooting at schools, gun control, so another jerk goes on a shooting rampage and again , gun control.

The thing all of these have in common is they are symptoms not the problems. 9/11 happened because of foreigners upset with the USA interfering with their countries politics, instead of trying to find out why they hated the USA, we just hated them back and took the stand that kill them all and the problem goes away. It is as if we were to solve school bullying by tying up kids and sewing their mouth shut, yeah it stops the bullying but that bully is still going to continue doing it when he can because nobody addressed why he did it. Or how about we stop DUI from happening by taking away cars, no more drunk drivers on the streets, but those same people will still be alcoholics and commit offenses in other ways.

This kid that shot those people could have been stopped, and it wouldn't have been by keeping him from getting guns. In May he dropped out of college from a doctorate program and I am betting we will find out that someone at the college knew something was wrong, or friends knew something was wrong but instead of getting him mental health, just shrugged it off or didn't want to offend someone by bringing up mental illness. That is where the focus needs to be, more mental health in the USA, you want to have the greatest impact across the board in crime, drugs, violence, make it where anyone can get mental health when needed and take away the stigma attached with the illness.


Something everyone can do is be a little more considerate of others. I have said before that I volunteer with suicidal hotlines and just talking to people that might feel their world is coming undone. 95% of them just want someone to talk to and to put things in perspective. When someone calls and says they are thinking of killing their family and then themselves, of course the police are notified, but it feels really good when the person doesn't commit the crimes because you took the time to talk to them and by the end of the call they were calmed down . So if you see someone upset, even if you do not know them , ask them if they are okay, or try to start a conversation with them, sometimes that is all it takes to get someone talking and once they start talking it can be a gateway to finding out what is wrong and maybe helping that person keep things in perspective. Just the act of asking someone if they are okay can make a difference because it shows that someone cared how they were doing.

 

[Doppel]

As soon as I saw this event I knew it would be gun control's wet dream.

 

[PJABBER]

Every time anything bad happens people do the thing they think will fix it the easiest. 9/11 happens, oh we can fix that by inspections at airports, shooting at schools, gun control, so another jerk goes on a shooting rampage and again , gun control.

The thing all of these have in common is they are symptoms not the problems...

I pretty much agree with your well thought out post.

Not everyone will or can be reached or even if reached early, controlled.

Best case in point are functional sociopaths.

Another would be those who break with reality suddenly and are already socially isolated to the point that there is no one to recognize the dissociative fugue state.

Still, most of us recognize when something is wrong with someone else and we still choose to ignore it, either because it is so easy to do so, because we become accustomed to it or it is seen as not our business.

Societies don't go down evil paths all the way at first. They build to greater and greater evil or greater self destruction if not turned. All along the way people see it happening and make choices of doing something or doing nothing. The outcome will be anyone's guess.

The US has constitutionally attempted to provide the mechanisms to control turns to despotism. What happens when the turn is too gradual to perceive by most, or most welcome despotism for the reasons it is so attractive to begin with?

 

[Lithium381]

I seem to remember a quote about the welfare state and abuse coming from the liberals 'don't punish all for the actions of one' or something like that. this is exactly wht happens everytime something like this comes up. everyone is punished. well, every law-abiding citizen

 

[Orignal Earl]

I seem to remember a quote about the welfare state and abuse coming from the liberals 'don't punish all for the actions of one' or something like that. this is exactly wht happens everytime something like this comes up. everyone is punished. well, every law-abiding citizen

I don't think taking anyone's guns away would stop an event like this.
But, when I see the amount of people on this board who think they could of stopped it with their pistola, I see a problem

 

[NeoV]

Mass shooting in Toronto last week.

Mass shooting in Alabama last week.

Mass shooting in Colorado this week.

4 year old shot in the head on a NY playground.

A few dozen shot, pretty much every weekend in Chicago.

Hundreds more shot every week all across the country.


It's pretty much impossible at this point to think any real form of gun control is going to take place in this country - it's far too late for that.

That said - to think there is no problem here is another thing altogether - but as you can see in this thread and every thread like it that involves guns in even the slightest way/shape/form - any mention of any sensible way to make it harder for criminals, or people that shouldn't own guns - and all we get is "2nd Amendment!!!", or "from my cold dead hands", or "slippery slope!!" - you know, the typical knee-jerk reaction from the NRA sheeps.

Much like common drugs - it's far too easy to get a gun in this country.

While legalizing drugs would help - to think that makes gun violence in this country go away is completely wrong.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

There is something way beyond guns of no guns going on in our society, many here are too young to know what things were like 50 years ago. When I was a kid in my early teens, I and all of my friends had guns and had access to guns, we never shot anybody. What we had was parental guidance, you learned early about gun safety and the proper use of guns. I can remember my Dad, a WW2 vet telling me you do not point a gun(even a toy one) at anyone!! Now children are raised by and babyset by videos, gaming machines, TV's, Etc. that many times portray violent, dark, demonic images.

Not this shit again. Look Rick, explain to me the whole of human history before video games, TV, and movies then. You know, the one replete with torture, mass murder, and genocide. How about the Gangsters of prohibition? Valentine's day massacre, and numerous bloody shoot outs. TV and video games were not baby sitting them, so why did they engage in such violence? That's right, because they were criminals, and some of them batshit crazy to boot.

What you are implying goes right back to the book burning mentality. It is a lame, finger pointing, who or what can we blame, fallacy. The problem lies within the individual/s that perform these acts of violence.

 

[boochi]

When the revolution comes, some of you are going to wish you had a gun.

 

[Orignal Earl]

When the revolution comes, some of you are going to wish you had a gun.

I'm picturing all these geeks charging shooting their pistolas willy nilly and one viper hovering and chopping them to pieces

 

[yuppiejr]

I'm picturing all these geeks charging shooting their pistolas willy nilly and one viper hovering and chopping them to pieces

Wolverines!

 

[ccbadd]

Ships don't kill people. Icebergs kill people.

What about the 12 that died in Texas last week in a pickup truck accident, guess we need to ban pickup trucks!

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Honestly, the comparisons of guns to cars is ridiculous. Cars were made for us to get from point A to point B faster than a horse & carriage and faster than our feet can carry us.

Guns were not made for this purpose. Guns were made to kill. Maybe not humans, but at least animals in hunting. But their purpose was to kill... or harm. Even if you say it's meant to deter crime, the consequence of a gun is that it kills, which is its method of deterrence. Cars were not made to kill. Alcohol was not made to kill. Scissors were not made to kill. Knives could be made to kill, but there's many other uses such as a utility knife, kitchen knife, etc.

So seriously, before you start talking about banning alcohol, cars, drugs, and comparing these to gun laws, seriously, think about the ridiculousness in your arguments.

I don't care if you're left or right wing, pro or anti gun, at least use some goddmamn logic in your arguments.

 

[shortylickens]

Honestly, the comparisons of guns to cars is ridiculous. Cars were made for us to get from point A to point B faster than a horse & carriage and faster than our feet can carry us.

Guns were not made for this purpose. Guns were made to kill. Maybe not humans, but at least animals in hunting. But their purpose was to kill... or harm. Even if you say it's meant to deter crime, the consequence of a gun is that it kills, which is its method of deterrence. Cars were not made to kill. Alcohol was not made to kill. Scissors were not made to kill. Knives could be made to kill, but there's many other uses such as a utility knife, kitchen knife, etc.

So seriously, before you start talking about banning alcohol, cars, drugs, and comparing these to gun laws, seriously, think about the ridiculousness in your arguments.

I don't care if you're left or right wing, pro or anti gun, at least use some goddmamn logic in your arguments.

THATS THE FUCKING POINT!

Guns were made to take lives and cars were made to protect them.
One of them kills a shitload more people than the other. Isnt that fucking amazing?

 

[z1ggy]

^ We call that irony.

 

[irishScott]

Honestly, the comparisons of guns to cars is ridiculous. Cars were made for us to get from point A to point B faster than a horse & carriage and faster than our feet can carry us.

Guns were not made for this purpose. Guns were made to kill. Maybe not humans, but at least animals in hunting. But their purpose was to kill... or harm. Even if you say it's meant to deter crime, the consequence of a gun is that it kills, which is its method of deterrence. Cars were not made to kill. Alcohol was not made to kill. Scissors were not made to kill. Knives could be made to kill, but there's many other uses such as a utility knife, kitchen knife, etc.

So seriously, before you start talking about banning alcohol, cars, drugs, and comparing these to gun laws, seriously, think about the ridiculousness in your arguments.

I don't care if you're left or right wing, pro or anti gun, at least use some goddmamn logic in your arguments.

You're missing the point of the analogy.

The argument for banning guns is, in a nutshell, that guns are dangerous. It's uses or intended uses are irrelevant to the argument. The analogy points out that other common items are just as or more dangerous in terms of body count, yet they are not banned. Apparently the body count is tolerable for cars, knives, and other objects, but not for guns.

The gun grabber argument boils down to "body count is acceptable if the object has other valid uses", which is hypocritical in light of the "every life counts" argument they usually bring to bear against guns/hi-cap mags/etc. The argument of guns alternative use being defensive tools is also usually glanced over and lumped in with "killing", showing further hypocrisy.

 

[Darwin333]

Yeah but the problem here is the guy did buy all that shit legally and then quite easily committed a horrible crime with it.

No that isn't the problem. The problem was the guy was very intelligent, highly motivated, and batshit fucking crazy. He would have killed at least as many, if not more, had he not been able to legally purchase a single gun.

 

[spacejamz]

http://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/Cit..._Gun_Deaths_A_Year__What_Is_Our_Role_.11.aspx

Wonder what percentage of those deaths are black on black gang related shootings (i.e., Chicago)? or are we not allowed to ask those type of questions here anymore?

 

[momeNt]

It's been statistically proven that cutting off the penis prevents rape.

I'll start with the gun-ban nuts as they believe in this kind of precautionary measures.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

You're missing the point of the analogy.

The argument for banning guns is, in a nutshell, that guns are dangerous. It's uses or intended uses are irrelevant to the argument. The analogy points out that other common items are just as or more dangerous in terms of body count, yet they are not banned. Apparently the body count is tolerable for cars, knives, and other objects, but not for guns.

The gun grabber argument boils down to "body count is acceptable if the object has other valid uses", which is hypocritical in light of the "every life counts" argument they usually bring to bear against guns/hi-cap mags/etc. The argument of guns alternative use being defensive tools is also usually glanced over and lumped in with "killing", showing further hypocrisy.

You act as if the argument for banning guns is SOLELY based on the fact that guns are dangerous. They are dangerous though. That's without question. I agree there are many, including the media who tends to portray guns as this scary thing and by spreading FUD, we move to gun control.

But that's not the point. There are some making the claim that guns are dangerous and should be regulated, but at the same time, saying that cars are dangerous isn't the appropriate response. It's pretty obvious that while the two can both be dangerous, there's more that differentiates between the two. For people to jump on this and start throwing out cars, alcohol, etc, is completely irrelevant.

There's no doubt there are thousands of things that can cause deaths, but it doesn't mean we compare them.

Furthermore, you mention that body count for cars don't matter, but for guns they do? Come on. You know how big of a campaign we put into teaching kids about seatbelts, drivers ed, forcing people to watch some 80s crap film with blood & gore to teach me about DUIs (I took drivers ed in like 2002 or something, and I still remember the ancient film). Maybe the gun control nuts have a bigger campaign, but you can't argue we DO care about car deaths to an extent.

Finally, it's important the PURPOSE of a gun and a car is. If the purpose of a car is to get from A to B, then the fact that people get killed in the process is an unintentional product. We work hard to reduce this. Look at technology that goes into cars: airbags, traction control, crumple zones, crash testing, onstar response, etc.

The fact that people are getting killed by a tool that is intended to kill when they aren't supposed to be is FAR more alarming.

I'm not saying that we should ban guns or institute more controls. I'm merely arguing on a logical front that cars and guns can't be easily compared. Anyone should be far more concerned that something which is designed to kill is causing innocent people to die.

 

[QuantumPion]

That is where the focus needs to be, more mental health in the USA, you want to have the greatest impact across the board in crime, drugs, violence, make it where anyone can get mental health when needed and take away the stigma attached with the illness.

I agreed with most of your post up till this point. The problem in America is not mental health - it's a cultural phenomenon. How is it that up until the 1950's, high school kids could bring their rifles to school for the shooting team, or leave their shotgun in their car to go hunting later, and there were never any mass killings of this sort? Guns were not feared as they are today. But the fear of guns is not the problem - it's one of moral character and personal responsibility on the decline. I'd argue the reason for this decline is the rise of the welfare state.