gun nutters . . . . scary stuff!

[sixone]

I'm not saying that we should ban guns or institute more controls. I'm merely arguing on a logical front that cars and guns can't be easily compared. Anyone should be far more concerned that something which is designed to kill is causing innocent people to die.

There's more to it than that. What if he hadn't been able to get a gun to spray bullets all over that movie theater? What if he'd rented a heavy truck, loaded it down with something heavy, and driven it through the wall of the theater? or right down the line of people waiting outside the theater?

People who want to kill are going to find a way to do it. If they can't get guns, they build them, or create weapons from other available items. The 9/11 terrorists used box cutters on the planes, because they knew they could get them thru security. The list of items banned from airlines just keeps growing.

Let's address the problem, not slap band-aids over the symptoms.

 

[highland145]

There's more to it than that. What if he hadn't been able to get a gun to spray bullets all over that movie theater? What if he'd rented a heavy truck, loaded it down with something heavy, and driven it through the wall of the theater? or right down the line of people waiting outside the theater?

People who want to kill are going to find a way to do it. If they can't get guns, they build them, or create weapons from other available items. The 9/11 terrorists used box cutters on the planes, because they knew they could get them thru security. The list of items banned from airlines just keeps growing.

Let's address the problem, not slap band-aids over the symptoms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing

Not to mention Tim McV.

 

[momeNt]

There's more to it than that. What if he hadn't been able to get a gun to spray bullets all over that movie theater? What if he'd rented a heavy truck, loaded it down with something heavy, and driven it through the wall of the theater? or right down the line of people waiting outside the theater?

People who want to kill are going to find a way to do it. If they can't get guns, they build them, or create weapons from other available items. The 9/11 terrorists used box cutters on the planes, because they knew they could get them thru security. The list of items banned from airlines just keeps growing.

Let's address the problem, not slap band-aids over the symptoms.

Incoming government putting you on the heavy truck rental watchlist. You're probably stuck hiring movers because your ass ain't going anywhere near a UHaul.

 

[sixone]

Incoming government putting you on the heavy truck rental watchlist. You're probably stuck hiring movers because your ass ain't going anywhere near a UHaul.

My dad would rent one for me, no questions asked. :sneaky:

 

[Modelworks]

I agreed with most of your post up till this point. The problem in America is not mental health - it's a cultural phenomenon. How is it that up until the 1950's, high school kids could bring their rifles to school for the shooting team, or leave their shotgun in their car to go hunting later, and there were never any mass killings of this sort? Guns were not feared as they are today. But the fear of guns is not the problem - it's one of moral character and personal responsibility on the decline. I'd argue the reason for this decline is the rise of the welfare state.

I remember the guns back in high school. There were kids that had hunting racks in cars with guns in them that would drive those cars to school and kids would have never considered killing people like some do now.

The cultural thing though can only be solved by addressing some of the mental problems that cause them , lots of people grew up abused or were not raised with core values and you can't change that by just telling them they need to change. It takes time to change a persons values and put them on a better path and that is where therapist, being open about what bothers you, and being willing to say "I have had a bad past, but I don't have to have a bad future" can really help.

I hate to sound like a shrink, I am not one, but something like CBT could help a bunch of people and that is usually only done in mental health situations. CBT changed my life because it tears away the distorted view many people have about their lives. It isn't psychobabble but more common sense and mental health is where it is taught currently. Things like CBT solve the problem by getting people to say stop once in a while and take apart what they are thinking to determine if it is really accurate, for me it was absolutes, I will never get promoted, I always fail, I can't ever make the team, all of those are absolutes that when put to just the facts are not true. I imagine the shooter in CO had a lot of those absolutes in his head when he chose to kill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy


Teaching kids that because their parents were one way doesn't mean they have to be the same way and that there are people who will listen, there are people that care goes a long way to improving self esteem and once you have good self esteem you start to gain the core values that people had years ago.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I remember the guns back in high school. There were kids that had hunting racks in cars with guns in them that would drive those cars to school and kids would have never considered killing people like some do now.

If I were to repost pictures that show up on my facebook during hunting season in OT, it would cause a mental breakdown among most of the posters

 

[QuantumPion]

I remember the guns back in high school. There were kids that had hunting racks in cars with guns in them that would drive those cars to school and kids would have never considered killing people like some do now.

The cultural thing though can only be solved by addressing some of the mental problems that cause them , lots of people grew up abused or were not raised with core values and you can't change that by just telling them they need to change. It takes time to change a persons values and put them on a better path and that is where therapist, being open about what bothers you, and being willing to say "I have had a bad past, but I don't have to have a bad future" can really help.

I hate to sound like a shrink, I am not one, but something like CBT could help a bunch of people and that is usually only done in mental health situations. CBT changed my life because it tears away the distorted view many people have about their lives. It isn't psychobabble but more common sense and mental health is where it is taught currently. Things like CBT solve the problem by getting people to say stop once in a while and take apart what they are thinking to determine if it is really accurate, for me it was absolutes, I will never get promoted, I always fail, I can't ever make the team, all of those are absolutes that when put to just the facts are not true. I imagine the shooter in CO had a lot of those absolutes in his head when he chose to kill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy


Teaching kids that because their parents were one way doesn't mean they have to be the same way and that there are people who will listen, there are people that care goes a long way to improving self esteem and once you have good self esteem you start to gain the core values that people had years ago.

Well, as to whether mental health professionals can undue the damage of poor upbringing (e.g. single mother parentage) is another matter. My point is that the root cause stems from the welfare state to begin with. You have to plug the leak first before you start bailing the water out, otherwise you'll still go down with the ship :hmm:

 

[Darwin333]

Lol I love how pro gun people always equate guns and cars, like people travel around on their guns and cars are built exclusively as weapons to kill.

So your concern isn't actually with the loss of life but the tool that was used to end a life and what that tools main purpose was intended to be?

 

[zinfamous]

Nice rhetoric.

So at which point does the populace rise up? Do they all agree with each other (cos that would be a first)?

Is it going to be some fantasy, civilians against the evil faceless government? Or is it more likely going to be a small group of malcontent's that get labelled as wakos and quickly crushed?

that's the thing. I always wondered where the gun nutters were about "taking back their country" when Booooooooosh was at a whopping 70% unfavorable rating and trampling on social, civil and constitutional rights every day.

not a fucking peep.


Now that a black man with a 42% disapproval rating is in the white house, ( and not threatening to take their guns), the same nutters are cleaning their chambers and seem to be "waiting for the moment to strike."

It's the most infernal and preposterously illogical of arguments--because one man's just and proper government is another man's tyranny, and that is always how it is.

 

[zinfamous]

So your concern isn't actually with the loss of life but the tool that was used to end a life and what that tools main purpose was intended to be?

how did he suggest that?

he's simply making the apt and solid rebuttal that a "tool developed and designed for the express purpose of killing people," when implemented in it's expected duty, is not comparable to a tool "developed and designed for the express purpose of benignly shuttling people from point A to point B," when in performing its express duty, events sometimes result in unintended accidents and death.


I'm not anti gun or anti second amendment....I just find it harder and harder to be on the side of a group that builds its beliefs on a foundation of logical fallacies that stack higher and higher every year.

The car analogy has never made sense, it has never worked, but people keep shitting it out of their mouths non-stop, as if it had ever supported their philosophy.

so bizarre.

 

[Lithium381]

The car analogy has never made sense, it has never worked, but people keep shitting it out of their mouths non-stop, as if it had ever supported their philosophy.

so bizarre.

do more people are injured/die every year in car related deaths or gun related deaths? which one was created to kill? which one is a "tool"?

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

There's more to it than that. What if he hadn't been able to get a gun to spray bullets all over that movie theater? What if he'd rented a heavy truck, loaded it down with something heavy, and driven it through the wall of the theater? or right down the line of people waiting outside the theater?

People who want to kill are going to find a way to do it. If they can't get guns, they build them, or create weapons from other available items. The 9/11 terrorists used box cutters on the planes, because they knew they could get them thru security. The list of items banned from airlines just keeps growing.

Let's address the problem, not slap band-aids over the symptoms.

I think certain things 9/11 addressed MAKE sense. You can call them band-aid solutions if you want, but things such as 100% screening and stronger cockpit doors do make sense. They would've certainly deterred the 9/11 terrorists and could have prevented previous incidents.

I agree there are stupid things such as banning liquids and making people take off shoes, but at the same time there ARE some benefits. I don't doubt making people take off shoes does help, although its an inconvenience. Liquids to an extent, but at the same time it's a bit absurd.

This isn't about what IF he didn't get his hands on weapons. If people start driving cars into malls on a daily basis to kill dozens of people, YOU BET there will be increased security regarding driving near malls or public places or the ability to jump the curb.

The point is deterring criminal activity is about adapting to the problem. People keep linking to cars, but how many people are actively using cars on a regular basis with the intent of killing and using the car as a weapon?

The argument that cars harm is based on the fact that there are accidental, negligent, and stupid deaths that happen everyday. When people start using car bombs like they did in Israel, I can bet you, we'd clamp down on cars.

Whether or not banning guns will help is irrelevant. The point is the minute anyone points fingers at guns, there will be those who come out irrationally and start talking about cars.

I'm all for a good debate, but those talking about cars are making as bad as an argument as the far left wing in banning guns. Seriously, if you want to make your case legitimate, at least use logical arguments.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

do more people are injured/die every year in car related deaths or gun related deaths? which one was created to kill? which one is a "tool"?

The raw number isn't the concern.

You have to look at how many vehicles are out there. How many people drive to work everyday? Drive home? Drive to run errands? Drive for vacation? If you met a 30 year old who said he's never ridden in a car or driven a car who showed up as a new hire at your work place what would you think? Would it be as acceptable if he has never handled a gun? The fact is more people are in cars on a daily basis. Given that, the chances someone may be involved in an accident is significantly higher already based on increased exposure.

Furthermore, let's not pretend we don't do anything about car deaths.

- Cops are out there issuing tickets.
- Roads are engineered for safety with speed limits, safe speed advisories, flashing signs, barriers.
- Cars are designed for safety with airbags, traction control, crumple zones, onstar.
- People are educated to buckle up with stupid TV ads.
- Driver's ed has a segment in CA specifically focused on showing blood and gore. If I remember, that film was called Red Asphalt. I swear it looked like an 80s production when I took it in 2002.

There's plenty done to regulate cars, but one thing's for certain. In America, you NEED a car to get places.

Just imagine for a minute if all cars/vehicles disappeared. You can leave buses and public transportation. Now what happens to commerce and industry? How do my goods get around? My UPS package certainly won't show up tomorrow. How will I get to work? Sure we could all hop on the subway in NYC but in cities where public transportation blows?

Now what if all guns (excluding military and law enforcement) disappeared from private ownership? Would we implode as a nation? Other countries seem ok. I'm not saying we should go that route, but clearly the consequences are less significant.

What I'm saying is cars are needed on a daily basis, and they're used very frequently. To compare the number of car deaths to gun deaths is being disingeneous. It's absolutely absurd.

Maybe if everyone carried a gun on them for hours a day just like we're involved in vehicles, then the comparison would make sense.

 

[Tom]

There is something way beyond guns of no guns going on in our society, many here are too young to know what things were like 50 years ago. When I was a kid in my early teens, I and all of my friends had guns and had access to guns, we never shot anybody. What we had was parental guidance, you learned early about gun safety and the proper use of guns. I can remember my Dad, a WW2 vet telling me you do not point a gun(even a toy one) at anyone!! Now children are raised by and babyset by videos, gaming machines, TV's, Etc. that many times portray violent, dark, demonic images.

Fifty years ago ? I guess you never heard of Charles Starkweather ?

Charles Whitman ?

btw, I never heard of Howard Unruh or Billy Cook myself until i looked up the first 2 on Wikipedia.

What we have is a culture that discourages treatment for mental illness and glorifies guns as a solution to problems.

 

[zinfamous]

do more people are injured/die every year in car related deaths or gun related deaths? which one was created to kill? which one is a "tool"?

again: continuing to ignore why this analogy is completely false.

 

[Tom]

So your concern isn't actually with the loss of life but the tool that was used to end a life and what that tools main purpose was intended to be?

Its ironic that a dozen people were killed in the pick up truck accident this morning in Texas.

but as to guns, its undoubtably a good thing that gun jammed, and i don't think its a big loss to gunowners to make large magazines like that illegal.

And to get real about background checks at gun shows.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Its ironic that a dozen people were killed in the pick up truck accident this morning in Texas.

but as to guns, its undoubtably a good thing that gun jammed, and i don't think its a big loss to gunowners to make large magazines like that illegal.

And to get real about background checks at gun shows.

Accident. Maybe if the theater shootings were a result of an accident, we wouldn't go as crazy?

But seriously we have rules in place not allowing you to put 23 people in a pickup truck. Cops will stop you if you have too many people in the car. Furthermore, being an illegal immigrant is in violation of immigration law. The fact is there's so many things wrong with what happened in Texas, and there's not only regulation, but enforcement measures to prevent these things. Unfortunately accidents do happen.

We have gun control and gun legislation and all this stuff, but if what happened in CO was a mere accident, then like I said, we wouldn't be having as large of a gun debate would we?

 

[Lithium381]

Accident. Maybe if the theater shootings were a result of an accident, we wouldn't go as crazy?

But seriously we have rules in place not allowing you to put 23 people in a pickup truck. Cops will stop you if you have too many people in the car. Furthermore, being an illegal immigrant is in violation of immigration law. The fact is there's so many things wrong with what happened in Texas, and there's not only regulation, but enforcement measures to prevent these things. Unfortunately accidents do happen.

We have gun control and gun legislation and all this stuff, but if what happened in CO was a mere accident, then like I said, we wouldn't be having as large of a gun debate would we?

hahahaha there are rules against murdering people, too

 

[bfdd]

I'm picturing all these geeks charging shooting their pistolas willy nilly and one viper hovering and chopping them to pieces

This nerd will be in the hills/mountains, taking a few pointers from them Afghanis.

 

[Lithium381]

again: continuing to ignore why this analogy is completely false.

i didn't bring up the analogy in the first place just responding, but why is it COMPLETLY false?

 

[sixone]

The point is deterring criminal activity is about adapting to the problem. People keep linking to cars, but how many people are actively using cars on a regular basis with the intent of killing and using the car as a weapon?

No, the point is that almost ANYTHING can be turned into a weapon and used for the express purpose of hurting people.

What weapons people use to carry out these heinous crimes is far less important than WHY. Let's identify the potential for violence before the girlfriend gets beat up, or the kids get drowned in the bathtub, or someone exercises their legal right to buy a weapon - whether it's a knife or a gun or a ball-peen hammer.

 

[marvdmartian]

Of course that's important.

But my concerns regarding America allowing gun ownership won't dissipate until I stop hearing about regular shootings in America.

Murders per 100,000

US: 4.8
UK: 1.23

So.... Why are you killing each other 3.9x more than we are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Hal, what does homicide rate have to do with guns? Nowhere does it say that the homicides they counted were firearms related, does it? As usual, anti-gun nuts cherry pick the facts to fit their version of the truth!

It also states this, quite clearly:

Intentional homicide demographics are affected by changes in trauma care, leading to changed lethality of violent assaults, so the intentional homicide rate may not necessarily indicate the overall level of societal violence.

Guess you missed that little part, huh?

The fact is, we all know you're anti-gun. Get over yourself, already. Feel free to stay on your side of the pond, where you may simply become another statistic, some day. We'll stay on our side, with our guns.

And if you folks need to be rescued from the bad guys again, feel free to call us. We'll be sure to bring our guns! :thumbsup:

 

[davmat787]

No, the point is that almost ANYTHING can be turned into a weapon and used for the express purpose of hurting people.

What weapons people use to carry out these heinous crimes is far less important than WHY. Let's identify the potential for violence before the girlfriend gets beat up, or the kids get drowned in the bathtub, or someone exercises their legal right to buy a weapon - whether it's a knife or a gun or a ball-peen hammer.

Agreed.

Personally, I would rather take my chances of dying in a movie than to have more bullshit laws passed for the sake of satisfying the knee jerk fear of the masses, who feel some new laws will somehow prevent this from happening again.

The spirit of America is slowly being eroded by politicians exploiting fear to pass laws like the Patriot Act and whatever might come out of the sad Aurora tragedy.

Life is 100% fatal, I want to live life on my terms as much as possible, that is not in a state of fear and under a police state. There was nothing that can be passed that would have prevented the Aurora shootings, but I am sure many are clamoring for some out of fear.

Now, where is my blu ray of V For Vendetta....

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Davmat personifies the attitude that although people in America get shot all the time, no one is really all that interested in changing that.

 

[davmat787]

Davmat personifies the attitude that although people in America get shot all the time, no one is really all that interested in changing that.

Bullshit. Read this post I made earlier and tell me you still feel this way. Oh, and I don't even own a firearm, but fully recognize why the 2nd Amendment was created and its importance.

And considering there are multiple 100's of millions of firearms in the USA, what does it say to you that there are less firearm related deaths than those caused by cars or swimming pools?

This is my understanding as well, IRT magazine sizes.

I will say this, everyone, myself included, seems to be arguing from the extremes. On one hand, we have a side that wants to completely ban guns. The other side does not appear to be open to any sort of changes to buying process or limitations to ownership.

I think we can all agree that these type of tragedies are horrible, and if something can be done to prevent them, then we need to look into it. The gun rights side is worried any changes will infringe on their rights to legally own firearms, and the gun control side tends to view any gun owner as a fetishist or terrorist in waiting.

Seems like the first step is for all of us to try and reach some middle ground, and quit arguing from extremes.

For the gun controllers, that means forgetting about completely banning guns, that kind of crazy talk will get you nowhere, except maybe on the field of some civil war. I kid but maybe that is not so far a stretch if you want to seriously round up all the guns in the US. For the gun rightists, maybe we need to be realistic about gun ownership in the 21st century, and realize that not every attempt at some gun legislation is an attempt to grab our guns.