Hardwareanalysis bench are fake

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
I think those of you that think the benchmarks are fake because some whacky french site or ATi PR rep doing damage control say so, you need to pick option 4 for the poll I put up yesterday.

you cant trust the french

actually it's danish, isn't it?

soloflys bench mark post is in dutch, but i was jus replying jokingly because he said "whacky french"

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

crossfire, on the other hand looks to be a complete fiasco.....especially all those who earlier touted how much more 'elegant' of a solution it was over nv's sli...

How can a dual card solution be more "elegant"?

well, i suppose that quite subjective, but i was referring to some ppl stating x-fire was a more "elegant" solution than sli

Looks to be a complete fiasco is also a highly subjective statement. This is what most people do here. :beer:

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

crossfire, on the other hand looks to be a complete fiasco.....especially all those who earlier touted how much more 'elegant' of a solution it was over nv's sli...

How can a dual card solution be more "elegant"?

well, i suppose that quite subjective, but i was referring to some ppl stating x-fire was a more "elegant" solution than sli

Looks to be a complete fiasco is also a highly subjective statement. This is what most people do here. :beer:

we need a lawn chair emoticon too

:beer: :lawnchair;

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Ackmed
The smart ones already thought this.

Its the ignorant ones that jumped in head first thinking that they were real.

Nice try Ackie!

Fortunately you and a 12 post member saying "Those can't be real and anyone who thinks they are is just a big poopie head!" isn't enough to discredit the website's info.

Neither of you has offered any links to another website that refutes the benchmarks as proof of your allegations? Why should we take your word over the Hardware Analysis?

ATI has some very good reasons to post that the benchmarks are fake, as they don't exactly portray their upcoming products in a very favorable light. (and they may be trying to sell off the rest of their stock before it totally tanks)

ATI could be scrambling to wring more performance out their parts before their "launch" and not want us to see where they're at now?

Did ATI tell us about the 16X12 at 60Hz limitation of their crappy multi-GPU pseudo-solution? No. We had to learn about it from Rage3d and Penstarsys.

Did ATI tell us about their insider trading antics? No. We had to wait for all the lawsuits to become public record.

Did ATI tell us they had trilinear optomizations in their drivers now? No. We had to get it from the web.

Did ATI tell us of their application specific "optomiztions" for 3dMark? No. We had to learn it on the web.

Did ATI tell us about their application specific "optomizations" for the 8500? (Quack) No. We had to learn it on the web.

Did ATI tell us about the "trylinear" optomizations? No. We had to learn it on the web.

Did ATI tell us about their insider trading a few years ago? No. We had to see them convicted of it and paying $900,000. in fines.

Etc ad infinitum.

The fact of the matter is that ATI has a long history of misleading the public. I don't particularly care as I'm only interested in their video cards, but don't make it out like they're some outraged "innocents" looking out for the public welfare denouncing the only benchmark info we have at this point. :roll:

I hope you're aware that Nv is just as guilty of most if not all of the stuff you mentioned. Maybe not insider trading, or maybe they are and we just dont know about it. But they're sure as hell guilty of brilinear filtering optimizations, 3dmark cheats, timedemo cheats, "FartCry" application optimizations and the list goes on.

 

[CaiNaM]

sanders expands on his article (from b3d forums):

First off I haven't posted here to validate the scores, as I can't, but I'll describe how this came into effect and what happened afterwards. I'll just post it here once, so read it all before you blurt out further questions, as the number of 15-year old testosterone driven ******s has to be at a minimum here hence I have no problem with disclosing more detailed info without someone constantly reading between the lines and weighing every if and when.

In 2004 I was invited by ATI to a private ATI AIB briefing and asked to do a speech about how we journalists would like to work with the AIBs and ATI. The speech I gave was in my usual no holds barred fashion, which was what Chris Hook wanted, and obviously meant I did not sugarcoat anything, but just gave them my views on how we'd like to work with ATI and the AIBs.

After the speech I was directly approached by a number of AIBs that very happy that I'd been so frank and open and I befriended a few of them. After that event I kept in touch with these people and we often talked about all sorts of issues. One of the things that often came up is that they're (sometimes) not happy, frustrated is a better word perhaps, with how ATI handles PR and can understand my frustration when ATI decides to no include me in the sample pool for whatever reason. They also said that getting me a sample early would get them in trouble with ATI, as they have pretty strict guidelines about who talks to the press and who doesn't.

As a fyi, the reason they liked working with me in the first place is that I don't bull***, I tell things how I see them, whether that's in the best interest of the company I'm talking about or not. Many (and I say this with caution) other journos usually don't have such a direct approach, as they fear a decline in advertising, get their articles edited by an editor that dumbs things down, or simply don't dare to speak their mind. You can call me an arrogant p***k for writing this, and maybe I am, that's just how I do things. I'm obviously not 100% right all the time, but I usually do get the discussion started, which is what I'm after, and if I did have it all wrong I?ll be the first to admit it.

So this time around, the upcoming R520 launch, I contacted ATI about three weeks ago and asked whether I was getting a sample prior to the launch and/or was invited to the launch party on Ibiza. ATI PR, came back with 'We?re sorry you did not make the cut', so obviously I asked why, and who did. They made it very clear that press who have a willingness to work with them across every roadmap will get priority. Or rather because I have been criticizing ATI in a few articles and refused to write about other ATI products that I frankly didn?t find interesting enough at that point, they'd rather not work with me. The press that did get invited apparently has written no such articles and basically was very open and willing to publish anything ATI offered.

I then got in touch with one of the AIBs and told them what happened, they were frankly shocked to hear of another ATI PR ?fiasco? as they called it and offered to help me. As I outlined above they could not send me a sample, but were willing to run a set of benchmarks on a pre-production R520 clocked at XT and Pro speeds. They did not want to tell me what board revision or what driver was used, but they did say that the scores I?ve been given are close to what the final product will be capable off. So how did I get these scores? Simple really, as is outlined in the article (the majority of people are lazy these days, they don?t care to read anymore). I gave them the exact specs of the system we?ve previously used to test the GeForce 7800GT, GTX and X850 XT (again outlined in the article), hence the scores for these cards are from a previous article, they did NOT run them. All they did is set the game settings as per my instructions (4x AA, 8x AF for example) copy the timedemos I sent them to the game folder and ran the timedemo scripts for these games, no more, no less.

That, in a nutshell is the story behind all this. And as mentioned in the introduction of the article the scores are provided AS-IS, I have no way to verify them. And before you start talking about integrity and credibility and all that, keep in mind that I served these scores with a disclaimer and am just providing a piece of the puzzle. These scores could be 100% accurate or completely off, but sources close to ATI, other than the AIB that ran the benches told me they?re close. But the AIB also mentioned that final clocks could still change, hence the scores could go either way. And obviously ATI is not going to say ?Good job Sander, thanks for getting the word out?, they will always say they?re false, regardless whether they are or aren?t.

Did I have an axe to grind with ATI? Well to certain extent yes, would I then knowingly publish false information? I sure wouldn?t, this is not a smear campaign. But when ATI wrote back and I quote ?Once again, you can write what you like? I just wanted to point out to them that there?s other ways for me to get samples, or scores and would then simple go ahead and post them ahead of any launch date. So am I a whining kid that didn?t get his ice-cream? Perhaps, the bigger issue is that they apparently cut off press that is not afraid to give them a hard time over products that have issues. If that makes me a whining kid, I?d rather be that than not inform my readers of these issues, even if that gets me s***listed with ATI. To be honest I know many journalists are in the same boat as I am, I have gotten plenty of emails in my inbox, also from prominent websites, not just the smaller ones, these past few days that all have a similar story.

If there?s anymore questions after this huge post I?d be happy to answer them, and I guess someone still has to eat his hat, I?d love to see pictures of that as well.

Regards,

Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com

 

[jasonja]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Ackmed
The smart ones already thought this.

Its the ignorant ones that jumped in head first thinking that they were real.

Nice try Ackie!

Fortunately you and a 12 post member saying "Those can't be real and anyone who thinks they are is just a big poopie head!" isn't enough to discredit the website's info.

Neither of you has offered any links to another website that refutes the benchmarks as proof of your allegations? Why should we take your word over the Hardware Analysis?

ATI has some very good reasons to post that the benchmarks are fake, as they don't exactly portray their upcoming products in a very favorable light. (and they may be trying to sell off the rest of their stock before it totally tanks)

ATI could be scrambling to wring more performance out their parts before their "launch" and not want us to see where they're at now?

Did ATI tell us about the 16X12 at 60Hz limitation of their crappy multi-GPU pseudo-solution? No. We had to learn about it from Rage3d and Penstarsys.

Did ATI tell us about their insider trading antics? No. We had to wait for all the lawsuits to become public record.

Did ATI tell us they had trilinear optomizations in their drivers now? No. We had to get it from the web.

Did ATI tell us of their application specific "optomiztions" for 3dMark? No. We had to learn it on the web.

Did ATI tell us about their application specific "optomizations" for the 8500? (Quack) No. We had to learn it on the web.

Did ATI tell us about the "trylinear" optomizations? No. We had to learn it on the web.

Did ATI tell us about their insider trading a few years ago? No. We had to see them convicted of it and paying $900,000. in fines.

Etc ad infinitum.

The fact of the matter is that ATI has a long history of misleading the public. I don't particularly care as I'm only interested in their video cards, but don't make it out like they're some outraged "innocents" looking out for the public welfare denouncing the only benchmark info we have at this point. :roll:

I hope you're aware that Nv is just as guilty of most if not all of the stuff you mentioned. Maybe not insider trading, or maybe they are and we just dont know about it. But they're sure as hell guilty of brilinear filtering optimizations, 3dmark cheats, timedemo cheats, "FartCry" application optimizations and the list goes on.

nVidia's guilty of insider trading charges too Link

 

[ronnn]

I like the part that seems to suggest that the board maker supplied these benchies, because of a pr fiasco. Well that certainly fixed things.

 

[jasonja]

oh so these benchmarks weren't even run on the same machines either? I can easily show you two machines with identical specs that don't perform anywhere near each other because of software installed.

 

[Turtle 1]

Absolutely Hay if Vista works the way its suppose to . This is going to be fantastic. WE are going to beable to do so more more . Inter./ .Gaming ./Visual Effects/Interface Comm, personal/
Its should be a brand new experance for everyone.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: jasonja

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Sander's article posted on Sep 16, 2005, 09:30 AM

Look at the stock for the 16th for ATI. Linky

If Sander did not post factual benches, he is in deep you know what. It seems to have effected the stock a bit as the release of the article does coincide with the time the drop took place. If it's not true, can Sander be held liable for messing with stock prices by defamation? Interesting.

I am surprised at Ati releasing those emails. Either they are personally very mad at this guy and lost sight of reason or Ati really wants his numbers to get big play. Pr is a complex art and Ati tends to be quite good at it - so it does leave one to wonder. It is an exceptionly ugly thing to run this poor Sander guy through the guantlet like this. :thumbsdown:

This poor guy? Are you kidding me? This guy is getting exactly what he deserves. If someone was threatening your company and trying to strong arm you into getting his way, would you sit back and take it? Frankly before today I never heard of this guy's website and IMO ATI was right in not giving him a card.... he's clearly shown he's not a professional and is a childish nerd who didn't get his new toy so he's acting out.

In the end he had no impact on the stock (losing a penny is not an impact) and he's probably caused himself more grief than he's caused ATI.

A penny? Oh, your talking about beginning of day to close. Gotcha. I'm talking about 9:30am.

 

[Turtle 1]

jasonja your sig Is that child psychological

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Turtle 1

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Overgloc
Sander of HA have an axe to grind with ATI?


> From: Sander Sassen - Hardware Analysis
> [mailto:ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com]
> Sent: 08 September 2005 09:39
> To: Andrzej Bania
> Subject: Re: Editors Day

>
> So you're telling me I'm not invited is that it? I feel an ATI column
> coming
> up, lets see if we can drop the stock price shall we?
>
> Sander Sassen
> http://www.hardwareanalysis.com <http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/>

Methinks ATI should have given Sander a NDA and let him be a part of the festivities. ATI is probably kicking themselves for not doing it. Would have saved themselves a lot of grief. Sander would then have to wait like everyone else to show benches. I don't think they are fake benches. Not worth ruining one's reputation.

Keys do you really think ATI is concerned about that review ? If its true it doesn't matter because the Truth will be none . It can't hurt sells as their not for sell yet.
If its a Lie the truth will be none. It shouldn't hurt sells and if someone runs out and buys a G70 right now over that review Ati is way better off with out that user. Why?
If that article is false and ATI is infact 10% to 15% faster . ATI marketing is smart eough to Know. That person was ignorant to start with and thats the tpye of person ATI marketing want to by nvidia cards. WHY? ATI figures thats the same type of person that will do a bad install. You know the type there the ones at the orb. that have score 20% to 30% slower than a comparable PC, Than they go to forums and puts down that product. Its just good common since. Look it really doesn't matter who wins this around . ATI has owned the single card performance since the introduction of the R300. SO ATI has produced the most powerful gaming GPU for years now . But this it .This is the last generation of these cards. From here on out its Going to be WGF 2.0 and SM4 and ATI already has all the Specs. out there and running in the form of R500. So ATI's First desk top release of this GPU is in fact there secound generation. Of this GPU. So don't kid yourselves about who leads the industry. In GPU ownership as far as power goes. At this time right now the R500 is . Oh but thats a consol that don't count . YA RIGHT ITS ATI. IT IS proof of a working next generation GPU . THAT JUST SCREAMS performance

I can think of 2 reasons ATI would be concerned about it.

1. If the benches are false and their stock takes a tank because of it.
2. If the benches are true and their stock takes a tank because of it and does not recover.

And excuse me, but R500 (xbox360) isn't here yet either. That just SCREAMS in silence.

 

[BlingBlingArsch]

S.S:"These scores could be 100% accurate or completely off,.."

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

crossfire, on the other hand looks to be a complete fiasco.....especially all those who earlier touted how much more 'elegant' of a solution it was over nv's sli...

How can a dual card solution be more "elegant"?

I think he meant "of the two Dual Card Solutions". Xfire and SLI, which is more elegant of the two. Or more nicely done physically and maybe functionally.

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

crossfire, on the other hand looks to be a complete fiasco.....especially all those who earlier touted how much more 'elegant' of a solution it was over nv's sli...

How can a dual card solution be more "elegant"?

I think he meant "of the two Dual Card Solutions". Xfire and SLI, which is more elegant of the two. Or more nicely done physically and maybe functionally.

Well this whole elegant thing has me confused, as I don't remember anyone saying xfire was more "elegant". Did a quick search and found avalon refered to sli as being more elegant and I know that I have referred to dual gpu as being inelegant. Nothing came up in others referring to xfire as elegant. Another example of guerilla marketing by our salesman?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

crossfire, on the other hand looks to be a complete fiasco.....especially all those who earlier touted how much more 'elegant' of a solution it was over nv's sli...

How can a dual card solution be more "elegant"?

I think he meant "of the two Dual Card Solutions". Xfire and SLI, which is more elegant of the two. Or more nicely done physically and maybe functionally.

Well this whole elegant thing has me confused, as I don't remember anyone saying xfire was more "elegant". Did a quick search and found avalon refered to sli as being more elegant and I know that I have referred to dual gpu as being inelegant. Nothing came up in others referring to xfire as elegant. Another example of guerilla marketing by our salesman?

Try searching for "bridge & SLI". I recall a few xfire fans saying the bridge was ugly or "in the way" for some reason. But I'll be damned if I can remember who.

Do you remember SLI'd Voodoo2's? Now that was dongle city. Inside and out.

 

[CaiNaM]

perhaps "elegant" was more my term? the point is many favored x-fire as a "better" solution that sli. hope that clears things up.

 

[Insomniak]

This whole thing gets more hilarious by the moment.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Biatche1488
They are FAKE some site said it its just a x800xtpe overclock
They did that because they are not invite at the official lauch
Just look at the half life 2 result 512mb+600mz+new architecture+faster memory+16shader+512bitringbus+youre all blind those bench are fake
And they dont talk about shader model 3 in splinter cell
And where they got there drivers we dont now they build them
The only card availble at this time its the x1800xl ati big partners can only get x800xl at this time

Am I the only one who had to take 2 full minutes to read and understand that?

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
perhaps "elegant" was more my term? the point is many favored x-fire as a "better" solution that sli. hope that clears things up.

Nope started with the salesman. Anyways it certainly is less loaded, now if x-fire is ever released we will see if is better in some ways or worse in some ways or just just a fiasco as it has been pre-judged.

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Biatche1488
They are FAKE some site said it its just a x800xtpe overclock
They did that because they are not invite at the official lauch
Just look at the half life 2 result 512mb+600mz+new architecture+faster memory+16shader+512bitringbus+youre all blind those bench are fake
And they dont talk about shader model 3 in splinter cell
And where they got there drivers we dont now they build them
The only card availble at this time its the x1800xl ati big partners can only get x800xl at this time

Am I the only one who had to take 2 full minutes to read and understand that?

Likely the only one who read it.

 

[sodcha0s]

Wow, you people will argue over ANYTHING video card related. Get a freaking life! A video card isn't the be-all end-all of your existence.

 

[Kalessian]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
perhaps "elegant" was more my term? the point is many favored x-fire as a "better" solution that sli. hope that clears things up.

Just to chime in quickly, here. I am 100% sure I heard some SLi-hater out there say that xfire is more elegant. This person, damned if I remember who it was, said so because xfire can mix and match cards.

So, not more elegant as far as being seksay in a blue-lit window room, but more of a smoother-around-the-edges solution.

And, as it has turned out so far, the converse is true.

--edit:

Furthuremore, I have to agree with Cainam here, about bias.

Everytime someone says "I admit I am xyz biased" I hear: "I am stupid". Now don't take that personally, else you might seem even more dumb. I realize that on this forum calling someone "stupid" will make everyone go around saying "omg at least I don't insult ppl," but I think that's stupid, too. *gasp

Can someone at least explain one thing for me?

What's so great about ATi? Hell, I don't even know HOW one could even BE an ATi "fanboy". Everyone over at b3d hates the geforce because nV made them cry with nv30. Imagine a corporation that's not benevolent. Or maybe they're all upset that the Geforce destroyed the beloved Voodoo?

I can at least understand nV bias. For while after 3dfx, NV was king, so being biased toward them is nostalgia-inducing (the good ol' days).

What did ATi ever do for you guys? You bought their cards during the nv30 saga because they were the things to get, and you liked them, so you don't want to expand your horizons? Reminds my of my uncle, who used to refuse to acknowledge that there were machines faster than his. "It's mine - it must be best"

Sometimes I want to buy an ATi card so much because it fits perfectly into the price-performance niche I'm looking for. An All-In-Wonder card I have would be great for my HTPC, but then I realize I can't use MythTV (linux) with it.

Compare this to my attitude in nv30 days. I used to check out the user reviews of certain nV cards just to see what kind of idiot would buy an NV part the same price as a dominating 9800pro.

Besides my x700 laptop, all of my new parts are nV because of linux. Without that to take my vote for me, I honestly don't know which company I would pick if the cards were equal. I guess nV for the newer tech (which ATi will have soon, anyway?).

And at first, I thought Rollo was just listing ATi's uglier past to prove a point. I thought for sure he would reply "nv may have done these things, but we're only talking about ATi here." But instead "at least nv admits it." I'm not sure if that's true, but it does seem rather nv-biased, but how can I be sure? He doesn't admit to it, and he could just be a frontrunner (ie, nv is winning so he likes nv).

I think it's funny that the first people to say "I will reserve my judgement on these benches" are the FIRST to judge others as fanboys.

Now that I've made a complete moron of myself, I'll say that I respect this S.S.@HA guy after reading that post of his.

Hockey-fanboys are racists, btw.

 

[jasonja]

Originally posted by: Turtle 1
jasonja your sig Is that child psychological

What? What's child psychological? It's actually a quote from a song that I happened to think was appropriate for the rambling opinions that we all post on here.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Kalessian
And at first, I thought Rollo was just listing ATi's uglier past to prove a point. I thought for sure he would reply "nv may have done these things, but we're only talking about ATi here." But instead "at least nv admits it." I'm not sure if that's true, but it does seem rather nv-biased, but how can I be sure? He doesn't admit to it, and he could just be a frontrunner (ie, nv is winning so he likes nv).

You are correct Kalessian. I only posted that list to show ATI is not above dishonesty in regard to HA's benches, so we can't necessarily disregard them based on their objections.