Has China dishonored itself?

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StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: jman19
Originally posted by: StormRider
It's a stupid rule. Let's assume that it is true that women gymnast are at their prime when they are 14 years old. Why have a rule that prevents people at their prime from competing? Can you imagine this happening at other sports? "Ummm, I'm sorry, we don't allow running backs at their prime -- you have to wait until you are 34 years old before you are allow to play in the NFL".

What kind of sport is it that prevents little girls from competing for fear of getting your a$$ kicked by them? "Oh noessss! They have 14 year old girls on their team! We're gonna get our a$$ kicked!"

Who cares if it is stupid - if gymnists are better when younger, like you're suggesting, then everyone who isn't disobeying the rules is at a disadvantage to China. Whether or not the rule is stupid doesn't matter - China is cheating if these gymnists are younger than 16.

There's also the argument that older gymnasts have experience and maturity on their side. In prior world competitions, the China team had a reputation for choking because of their youth -- that's why our US Team won the World Championships against them.

I'm not sure we were at a disadvantage because at our qualifying meets there were lots of other gymnasts that were younger (but eligible according to the rules) than our current team. And yet we picked a bunch of older gymnasts to be on the final team.

Both Chellsie Memmel and Alicia Sacramone are 20 years old. Jana Bieger (alternate) is 19. Nastia Liukin is 18.

When I watched the women's qualifiers, I remember hearing the commentary about how valuable it is to have older teammates (such as Chellsie and Alicia) with international experience on the team to act as a calming influence on the younger members because sometimes the younger teammates will get rattled during competition. The Chinese team had a reputation for becoming unrattled and choking during competition. If age was the primary factor in winning, then we should have only picked 16 year olds as the final team members.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Look on the bright side guys. At least nobody died over this Chinese government lie.

That's more than I can say about our own leaders.

Lame, even for you. Comparing our gov't and China? Really?

If you were in China and on an internet messageboard, you posted something as critical about the Chinese government as you just did about the US, you'd be fucking jailed. In the US the worst that happens is everyone calls you an idiot.

Put that in your wonton.
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: StormRider
It's a stupid rule. Let's assume that it is true that women gymnast are at their prime when they are 14 years old. Why have a rule that prevents people at their prime from competing? Can you imagine this happening at other sports? "Ummm, I'm sorry, we don't allow running backs at their prime -- you have to wait until you are 34 years old before you are allow to play in the NFL".

What kind of sport is it that prevents little girls from competing for fear of getting your a$$ kicked by them? "Oh noessss! They have 14 year old girls on their team! We're gonna get our a$$ kicked!"

As has been explained in the MSM, the rule is there for the benefit of the children themselves. Physicians etc have determined that their young bodies (joints, tendons etc) should not be exposed to the stresses of such high-level training as is required for the Olympics.

Fern

That doesn't make sense. I found this on Wiki:

Opponents of the rule have countered that by barring younger gymnasts from top level meets, they are denying them valuable competitive experience.[11] They have also argued that junior gymnasts perform and are scored under the same Code of Points as the seniors, perform the same skills, and are thus not avoiding the physical impact of training and performing high-level skills. It is also argued that the current Code of Points, with its increased requirements for difficult skills, is more suited to younger and lighter athletes, and puts older athletes at greater risk of injury.[14]
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Look on the bright side guys. At least nobody died over this Chinese government lie.

That's more than I can say about our own leaders.

Lame, even for you. Comparing our gov't and China? Really?

If you were in China and on an internet messageboard, you posted something as critical about the Chinese government as you just did about the US, you'd be fucking jailed. In the US the worst that happens is everyone calls you an idiot.

Put that in your wonton.
That's pretty lame. Telling a lie for an olympic medal and telling a lie to start a disastrous war are on completely different planets.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Look on the bright side guys. At least nobody died over this Chinese government lie.

That's more than I can say about our own leaders.

Lame, even for you. Comparing our gov't and China? Really?

If you were in China and on an internet messageboard, you posted something as critical about the Chinese government as you just did about the US, you'd be fucking jailed. In the US the worst that happens is everyone calls you an idiot.

Put that in your wonton.
That's pretty lame. Telling a lie for an olympic medal and telling a lie to start a disastrous war are on completely different planets.

You are the one who made the ridiculous comparison. You compared one of the less offensive (alleged) lies of the Chinese gov't with the worst lie of the current US admin.

Have people in our gov't ever told harmless lies or just lies that didn't end up killing anyone? I'd say the majority of them. Have lies by the Chinese government resulted in deaths? Probably the majority of them. The thing is, the Chinese gov't doesn't have to work hard to lie because it owns all the media in the country and censors foreign news and internet from its people.

Positing that these two countries are in anywhere near the same universe in terms of freedom and government transparency is fucking obscenely ignorant.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
That's pretty lame. Telling a lie for an olympic medal and telling a lie to start a disastrous war are on completely different planets.
But what is ironic is someone so critical of the Bush Administration behaving like an apologist for Communist China.
 

imported_Baloo

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2006
1,782
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Baloo
Wow! so a 13-year-old can outperform an older more experienced competitor. Just wow!

The issue is body size and maturity. The average Chinese is 77 lb and the average American 106. This gives the Chinese team a profound advantage in physics and the small size is youth related.

I don't thin anybody here needed you to state the obvious.
 

rezinn

Platinum Member
Mar 30, 2004
2,418
0
0
I really hope they take those medals away from them. It's obvious from their size and looks that they are probably all <15.
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
1
0
Originally posted by: rezinn
I really hope they take those medals away from them. It's obvious from their size and looks that they are probably all <15.

maybe they somehow purposely stunt their development
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,266
6,637
126
Originally posted by: Baloo
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Baloo
Wow! so a 13-year-old can outperform an older more experienced competitor. Just wow!

The issue is body size and maturity. The average Chinese is 77 lb and the average American 106. This gives the Chinese team a profound advantage in physics and the small size is youth related.

I don't thin anybody here needed you to state the obvious.

What are you talking about? If what I said was so obvious you would have never posted the comment I quoted.
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
83
86
To be honest, I never thought any of the China's female gymnasts were over 13 yrs old. Somehow I thought that was allowed.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
Originally posted by: SSSnail
To be honest, I never thought any of the China's female gymnasts were over 13 yrs old. Somehow I thought that was allowed.

Somehow, it isn't, and yes, China has taken a massive dump on the Olympics and their own honor and reputation.
 

BigJelly

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2002
1,717
0
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: SSSnail
To be honest, I never thought any of the China's female gymnasts were over 13 yrs old. Somehow I thought that was allowed.

Somehow, it isn't, and yes, China has taken a massive dump on the Olympics and their own honor and reputation.

A country that cheats, has no honor to lose.

Is anyone really surprised that china cheated?

The sad thing is NOTHING will happen and the IOC has basically said that they won't do a damn thing about it.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: StormRider
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: StormRider
It's a stupid rule. Let's assume that it is true that women gymnast are at their prime when they are 14 years old. Why have a rule that prevents people at their prime from competing? Can you imagine this happening at other sports? "Ummm, I'm sorry, we don't allow running backs at their prime -- you have to wait until you are 34 years old before you are allow to play in the NFL".

What kind of sport is it that prevents little girls from competing for fear of getting your a$$ kicked by them? "Oh noessss! They have 14 year old girls on their team! We're gonna get our a$$ kicked!"

As has been explained in the MSM, the rule is there for the benefit of the children themselves. Physicians etc have determined that their young bodies (joints, tendons etc) should not be exposed to the stresses of such high-level training as is required for the Olympics.

Fern

That doesn't make sense. I found this on Wiki:

Opponents of the rule have countered that by barring younger gymnasts from top level meets, they are denying them valuable competitive experience.[11] They have also argued that junior gymnasts perform and are scored under the same Code of Points as the seniors, perform the same skills, and are thus not avoiding the physical impact of training and performing high-level skills. It is also argued that the current Code of Points, with its increased requirements for difficult skills, is more suited to younger and lighter athletes, and puts older athletes at greater risk of injury.[14]

I think you're missing the larger point here. Whether or not you think it's a good rule or a bad rule, the fact is that it IS a rule, and the other countries competing in the Olympics have followed it. We can debate the value of the rule all day long, but surely you don't think the fact that you don't like the rule is justification for China breaking it. The unquestionable wisdom of Wikipedia notwithstanding, the Olympics only work if everyone is playing by the same set of rules.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Op-ed spanking the IOC with some new tidbits I hadn't heard:

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympi...08&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

As recently as December 2007, in provincial gymnastics meets and news reports that covered it, she was a 13-year-old prodigy, too young for the 16-year-old Olympic age limit for gymnastics.

Considering 2000 Chinese bronze medalist Yang Yun later admitted on state television she was 14 that year, the reported ages of He Kexin and at least two of her teammates have aroused suspicion in nearly everyone except the powers that be ? the International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) and the International Olympic Committee (IOC).

The birth date of Yang Yilin was listed on official national registration lists posted by the General Administration of Sport of China website from 2004-2006 as a too-young Aug. 26, 1993, according to the AP.

On her passport her birth date is Aug. 26, 1992.

Jiang Yuyuan?s birthday was Oct. 1, 1993 as recently as a registration list for a 2007 competition. According to her passport she was born Nov. 1, 1991.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
This is akin I think to the latin american baseball player situation. Basically scouts encourage players to forge their documents to make them look younger than they are. So that a 21 year old player has a reported age of 17-18 that makes them more appealing as long term prospects for big league clubs.

The net result of this are tons of MLB players who basically are of an unknown age, some of these guys don't seem to even know the truth.

It's just banana republic document keeping whether it's in Cuba or China, accuracy isn't real high on the priority list because everything is for sale. You can bribe an official to get a document saying you were 105 years old if you wanted.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,965
279
126
So the two girls were either cheating in the earlier competitions or they are cheating now. Either way they were cheating in one or the other either of which would of disqualified them.

btw - China was a toilet of a country back when it was being colonized. Why would anyone even pretend they somehow became honorable in the past two centuries?
 

CottonRabbit

Golden Member
Apr 28, 2005
1,026
0
0
Originally posted by: MadRat
btw - China was a toilet of a country back when it was being colonized. Why would anyone even pretend they somehow became honorable in the past two centuries?

 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
65,740
14,161
146
http://www.modbee.com/24hour/world/story/393548.html

"Faced with partially empty arenas, authorities have mobilized armies of volunteers to attend Olympic events, despite the fact that all seven million tickets to the Summer Games were sold out or distributed to national Olympic committees.

Some of the Chinese spectators appear lost at the intricacies of the events they watch as they sit in blocks in stands, wearing colored T-shirts and waving flags.

IOC member Kai Holm, a Dane, called them "phony spectators."

"They sit around in small groups, some in yellow shirts, some in red shirts," Holm said. "They do not understand the rules of the game they cheer. It's a little bit funny."

Holm said leaders tell volunteers when to cheer: "They are applauding by signs."

"On Friday, China acknowledged that children clad in ethnic costume who carried the Chinese flag at the ceremony were not actually from any of China's 56 minority ethnic groups.

Wang, the games spokesman, dismissed criticism of the fakery, saying the children were "actors and actresses and performers."

"It is typical for Chinese performers to wear different apparel from different ethnic groups. There is nothing special about it," Wang said at a news briefing. "They will wear different apparel to signify people are friendly and happy together."

China's majority Han Chinese, who make up about 92 percent of the nation's 1.3 billion people, have poor relations with some of the minority groups, particularly Tibetans and Uighurs, a restive Muslim minority in China's far west, which has been roiled by separatist violence."

Phony spectators, phony minority/ethnic dance groups, ...why am I not surprised?


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08....html?_r=1&oref=slogin
"A talented, 26-year-old Chinese dancer was seriously injured during a rehearsal for the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympic games just 12 days before the show, and faces the prospect of being paralyzed for the rest of her life.
Liu Yan, considered one of the country?s top classical Chinese dancers, was preparing the performance of a lifetime: the only solo dance in a four-hour spectacular that was expected to be seen by a global audience of more than one billion people.

But on July 27, during an evening rehearsal at Beijing?s National Stadium, the so-called Bird?s Nest, she leaped toward a platform that malfunctioned and plunged about 10 feet into a shaft, landing on her back, according to family members. "

"The organizers of the opening ceremony initially asked witnesses and friends not to disclose the accident ahead of the Olympic Games on Aug. 8, according to people who have visited Liu in the hospital. "


Accidents can and do happen in any kind of event, be it sporting or entertainment. Everyone understands that. Why has the Chinese government gone to such extremes to cover it up? Of course, now that it has been brought to light (by the Falun Gong paper according to my local paper) the Chinese are doing their best to turn her into a national hero...


Has China dishonored itself? IMO, yes, not only are they faking anything they need to, they do their best to cover up anything that MIGHT be seen as a negative...I'd say they are losing much face.
 

fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
1,787
1
0
Originally posted by: BoomerD
http://www.modbee.com/24hour/world/story/393548.html

"Faced with partially empty arenas, authorities have mobilized armies of volunteers to attend Olympic events, despite the fact that all seven million tickets to the Summer Games were sold out or distributed to national Olympic committees.

They should just hand out crab rangoons. Them shits is wicked tasty. /i know i know so inappropriate.
 

HannibalX

Diamond Member
May 12, 2000
9,359
2
0
China dishonors itself on an hourly basis; the Olympics just make it headline news.
 

HannibalX

Diamond Member
May 12, 2000
9,359
2
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Look on the bright side guys. At least nobody died over this Chinese government lie.

You have no idea if this is true or not. China has this habit of executing pretty much anyone who makes them look bad. I guess you haven't been following the Chinese recently (or ever)?

You can no more prove this statement than the people arguing that China cheated can prove their statement.

Bad form.
 
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