Haswell Memory: Cas vs Frequency?

wasabiman123

Member
May 28, 2013
132
1
81
What value would be more important to take into consideration for RAM (gaming purposes) on a Haswell system, CAS latency, or frequency?

Is a CAS 11 2133mhz going to be at a disadvantage to a CAS 9 set?
Would be grateful if someone could shed some light on this
 

JAG87

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2006
3,921
3
76
Latency has ceased making a difference years ago. And frequency over 1600 Mhz yields very little benefit.
 

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
40
86
Latency only matters if your workload won't fit in processor cache and also is not easily buffered in processor cache.

Also, make sure you calculate latency in nanoseconds instead of in CAS.
 

wasabiman123

Member
May 28, 2013
132
1
81
Latency has ceased making a difference years ago. And frequency over 1600 Mhz yields very little benefit.

That may very well be the case, but hey it makes me feel better that I match the "speed" of the Xbone's DDR3 (2133mhz) :biggrin:
 

wasabiman123

Member
May 28, 2013
132
1
81
Latency only matters if your workload won't fit in processor cache and also is not easily buffered in processor cache.

Also, make sure you calculate latency in nanoseconds instead of in CAS.

How does that translate to gaming, and I'm just going by retail specifications, specifically this new set, it's about 60 dollars cheaper than an equivalent corsair set with CAS 9 instead of 11, all else being equal.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820233528
 

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
40
86
How does that translate to gaming, and I'm just going by retail specifications, specifically this new set, it's about 60 dollars cheaper than an equivalent corsair set with CAS 9 instead of 11, all else being equal.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820233528

It rarely does.

Only in processor intensive RTS games that happen to be designed with higher binary size than the cache does it really help much.

Current games are either console trash built for absolutely terribad CPUs or MMOs that are designed around low-mid range CPUs.

Neither of these would do much to stress the ram of systems for the purpose of impromptu instruction cache with cache of the likes of a 3570k or 3770k (Same for 4670k or 4770k).
 

WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
7,414
402
126
Did not test different latency settings, but it might be prudent to watch out for memory speed settings' effect on temperature :

Used the same 4770K, 4.4GHz @ 1.2V (fixed, not adaptive), Antec 920, IC Diamond, Crucial Ballistix Elite 1866 9-9-9-27-2T 1.5V
All runs were using the XMP timings (fixed at 9-9-9-27-2T) - only the speed and voltage were changed. Verified to be error free in memtest86+ 5 RC1.
Highest core temperature during a 25-pass IBT run is reported, averaged across 2 runs.

1333 - 1.4V : 75C
1333 - 1.5V : 75C
1866 - 1.4V : 79C
1866 - 1.5V : 79C

Memory voltage doesn't seem to make a difference, but speed definitely does.
 
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wasabiman123

Member
May 28, 2013
132
1
81
Did not test different latency settings, but it might be prudent to watch out for memory speed settings :

Used the same chip, 4.4GHz @ 1.2V (fixed, not adaptive), Antec 920, IC Diamond, Crucial Ballistix Elite 1866 9-9-9-27-2T 1.5V
All runs were using the XMP timings (fixed at 9-9-9-27-2T) - only the speed and voltage were changed. Verified to be error free in memtest86+ 5 RC1.
Highest core temperature during a 25-pass IBT run is reported, averaged across 2 runs.

1333 - 1.4V : 75C
1333 - 1.5V : 75C
1866 - 1.4V : 79C
1866 - 1.5V : 79C

Memory voltage doesn't seem to make a difference, but speed definitely does.

I assume you mean in terms of temperature?
 

Edrick

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2010
1,939
230
106
Did not test different latency settings, but it might be prudent to watch out for memory speed settings :

Used the same chip, 4.4GHz @ 1.2V (fixed, not adaptive), Antec 920, IC Diamond, Crucial Ballistix Elite 1866 9-9-9-27-2T 1.5V
All runs were using the XMP timings (fixed at 9-9-9-27-2T) - only the speed and voltage were changed. Verified to be error free in memtest86+ 5 RC1.
Highest core temperature during a 25-pass IBT run is reported, averaged across 2 runs.

1333 - 1.4V : 75C
1333 - 1.5V : 75C
1866 - 1.4V : 79C
1866 - 1.5V : 79C

Memory voltage doesn't seem to make a difference, but speed definitely does.

Well, since the data is being fed to the CPU at a faster rate, the CPU is filling its pipeline quicker and has less wait states, so it is working harder. At least that's my theory.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
Frequency is more important for performance than memory sub settings with DDR3..

I was reading an interesting thread over at Overclock.net about the impact of memory speeds on gaming:

Thread

The OP claims that while FPS may not necessarily increase, gameplay is noticeable smoother going from DDR3-1600 to DDR3-2133, with higher minimum frame rates and less texture pop in, particularly in Far Cry 3.

I'll be getting my 3930K tomorrow so I'll be testing out my new 16GB DDR3-2133 kit in Far Cry 3, because I know that game had quite a bit of texture pop in due to the craptastic engine and the sheer size of the sandbox.
 
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24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
40
86
Frequency is more important for performance than memory sub settings with DDR3..

I was reading an interesting thread over at Overclock.net about the impact of memory speeds on gaming:

Thread

The OP claims that while FPS may not necessarily increase, gameplay is noticeable smoother going from DDR3-1600 to DDR3-2133, with higher minimum frame rates and less texture pop in, particularly in Far Cry 3.

I'll be getting my 3930K tomorrow so I'll be testing out my new 16GB DDR3-2133 kit in Far Cry 3, because I know that game had quite a bit of texture pop in due to the craptastic engine and the sheer size of the sandbox.

CAS Latency means nothing with the Memory speed to determine the real Latency, which is Latency in Nanoseconds of the memory.
 

toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
1
0
Frequency is more important for performance than memory sub settings with DDR3..

I was reading an interesting thread over at Overclock.net about the impact of memory speeds on gaming:

Thread

The OP claims that while FPS may not necessarily increase, gameplay is noticeable smoother going from DDR3-1600 to DDR3-2133, with higher minimum frame rates and less texture pop in, particularly in Far Cry 3.

I'll be getting my 3930K tomorrow so I'll be testing out my new 16GB DDR3-2133 kit in Far Cry 3, because I know that game had quite a bit of texture pop in due to the craptastic engine and the sheer size of the sandbox.
I dont really believe everything this guy is claiming especially about it feeling smoother and getting no pop in with faster memory. I think if that was really happening then we would have more evidence of that from other users.

The biggest thing with FC3 is the increase in smoothness. The slower memory feels choppy at times, such as when you get into a firefight. The faster memory never has this problem. Also, with 2133 and above, I get zero texture "pop in", yet it's present with lower memory speeds.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
CAS Latency means nothing with the Memory speed to determine the real Latency, which is Latency in Nanoseconds of the memory.

You did notice that I said,"Frequency is more important for performance than memory sub settings with DDR3," didn't you?
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
I dont really believe everything this guy is claiming especially about it feeling smoother and getting no pop in with faster memory. I think if that was really happening then we would have more evidence of that from other users.

The biggest thing with FC3 is the increase in smoothness. The slower memory feels choppy at times, such as when you get into a firefight. The faster memory never has this problem. Also, with 2133 and above, I get zero texture "pop in", yet it's present with lower memory speeds.

I'll be testing it tomorrow for sure, as I have a hard copy of Far Cry 3 so I won't have to download it.. While Far Cry 3 is a good game, the amount of texture pop in is unacceptable to me; and this is on ultra settings. Doing a search on the internet reveals this is a common issue that occurs regardless of how much VRAM your GPU has.

Theoretically though, faster system memory could conceivably help with texture pop in, as the GPU uses some of the system memory to store textures and what not.
 

toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
1
0
I'll be testing it tomorrow for sure, as I have a hard copy of Far Cry 3 so I won't have to download it.. While Far Cry 3 is a good game, the amount of texture pop in is unacceptable to me; and this is on ultra settings. Doing a search on the internet reveals this is a common issue that occurs regardless of how much VRAM your GPU has.

Theoretically though, faster system memory could conceivably help with texture pop in, as the GPU uses some of the system memory to store textures and what not.
hmm I have not really noticed any pop in with Far Cry 3 but I will pay more attention next time I fire it up. I have only played about 2 hours of the game so try and test it towards the beginning so I can see if I have similar pop in.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
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It's noticeable when you're driving around the island at high speed, or flying in the hang glider.
 

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
40
86
It's noticeable when you're driving around the island at high speed, or flying in the hang glider.

The same thing happens in the Just Cause games.

I think the engine designer forgot to allow large system memory caching in the Dunia engine since it was designed almost exclusively for the extremely memory capacity limited current gen consoles.

I know that Just Cause 2 only uses about 256 mB of system memory and has massive pop-in issues.

The Unreal 3 Engine games also have this problem when the developers don't set the system memory and video memory cache high enough even when there is available resources on the target system.
 
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Hixbot

Junior Member
Jun 6, 2013
7
0
66
I've always aimed to get frequencies and timings that give me the lowest real latency (in nanoseconds).
I will not significantly sacrifice the real latency for frequency, but that's just me.

I will also not spend significantly more money on top-of-the-line RAM. The performance benefit is not there. I try to find the most reasonably priced "high-end" RAM.
It's not like the old days where RAM speed could limit your CPU overclock (limits FSB).
 

wasabiman123

Member
May 28, 2013
132
1
81
I've always aimed to get frequencies and timings that give me the lowest real latency (in nanoseconds).
I will not significantly sacrifice the real latency for frequency, but that's just me.

I will also not spend significantly more money on top-of-the-line RAM. The performance benefit is not there. I try to find the most reasonably priced "high-end" RAM.
It's not like the old days where RAM speed could limit your CPU overclock (limits FSB).

Doesn't CAS correspond to latency? How do you measure the "real" latency?
 

Concillian

Diamond Member
May 26, 2004
3,751
8
81
He's talking about units of latency.

CAS "units" are cycles. These units have a variable amount of time depending on the frequency.

He's pointing out that time is the important latency measurement when comparing memory of different speeds.

example:
1600 MHz at CAS 9 = 5.625
2400 MHz at CAS 12 = 5.000

so in this case CAS 12 is lower latency than CAS 9.
 

wasabiman123

Member
May 28, 2013
132
1
81
(CAS / Frequency (MHz)) × 1000 = X ns

Blew my mind, wow well this kind of settles it then, the notion of real latency makes sense now that I have this formula, see kids, math does come in handy in the real world

Well this kinda answers my question, as the best real latency with a higher frequency would be the optimal choice then!
You guys are awesome many thanks
 

Makaveli

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2002
4,935
1,519
136
He's talking about units of latency.

CAS "units" are cycles. These units have a variable amount of time depending on the frequency.

He's pointing out that time is the important latency measurement when comparing memory of different speeds.

example:
1600 MHz at CAS 9 = 5.625
2400 MHz at CAS 12 = 5.000

so in this case CAS 12 is lower latency than CAS 9.


cool so on my rig

1600 mhz at cas 7 = 4.375
 

wasabiman123

Member
May 28, 2013
132
1
81
He's talking about units of latency.

CAS "units" are cycles. These units have a variable amount of time depending on the frequency.

He's pointing out that time is the important latency measurement when comparing memory of different speeds.

example:
1600 MHz at CAS 9 = 5.625
2400 MHz at CAS 12 = 5.000

so in this case CAS 12 is lower latency than CAS 9.

For two sets of 2133mhz ram, my goal as it is the highest I can find at 1.5v.

Ok so for this set I get 10.3 ns, the set costs 85 bucks :thumbsup:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820233528

For this one I get 8.4 ns, it costs 150 $$$ D:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820233285

So almost double for 2ns shaved off roughly. Thoughts anyone?
 
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