Haswell overclocking

[Homeles]

Yeah i like how AT cut the bottom of that slide out

It means you might not get crap unless you buy a "K" chip. It's all speculation at this point.

Historical precedent would suggest that the BCLK will be adjustable on non-K series processors. Point in case: i7 3820.

How do you know these costs are passed on to the consumer...they could just as easily use the cost difference to PAD those same margins.

It's impossible to know unless you have insider information. The opposing claim, that Intel converted the savings into pure profit, is just as unverifiable.

That is exactly what they claim.

And it's likely to be the truth. If Haswell does in fact have a soldered IHS, then such a move would support that claim even more, since the TDP is going up.

 

[inf64]

It means you might not get crap unless you buy a "K" chip. It's all speculation at this point.

Historical precedent would suggest that the BCLK will be adjustable on non-K series processors. Point in case: i7 3820.

It's impossible to know unless you have insider information. The opposing claim, that Intel converted the savings into pure profit, is just as unverifiable.

You have to ask yourself one question. First a premise: if bclk is adjustable on non-K SKUs and if on those SKUs user may freely manipulate the Turbo multipliers as he wants, then in all likelihood every non-K SKU will be able to reach 4.5+Ghz OCs that way. Now a question: if above is true then why in the world would anyone buy a "K" SKU for more money and for lack of features (intel fuses off certain features from K parts) while he can buy non-K "semi-locked" part (be it 4T or 8T) and OC it to almost same value? Makes no sense to me.

 

[jpiniero]

Better heat transfer = lower temps = lower power consumption and longer longevity of the IC.

I was under the impression that the TIM that Intel uses in Ivy Bridge handles the higher heat density "better", ie: last longer.

 

[Maximilian]

It means you might not get crap unless you buy a "K" chip. It's all speculation at this point.

Historical precedent would suggest that the BCLK will be adjustable on non-K series processors. Point in case: i7 3820.

I really really doubt it :\

 

[Homeles]

You have to ask yourself one question. First a premise: if bclk is adjustable on non-K SKUs and if on those SKUs user may freely manipulate the Turbo multipliers as he wants, then in all likelihood every non-K SKU will be able to reach 4.5+Ghz OCs that way. Now a question: if above is true then why in the world would anyone buy a "K" SKU for more money and for lack of features (intel fuses off certain features from K parts) while he can buy non-K "semi-locked" part (be it 4T or 8T) and OC it to almost same value? Makes no sense to me.

Buying a K series processor hardly comes at a higher premium. And unless I'm mistaken, you can't hit as high of overclocks unless you have access to both the multiplier and the base clock. I.e., (I believe) you can push a black edition Phenom II harder than you can a non-black edition Phenom II, as you have more ability to tweak and tune. So there is still incentive for overclockers.

I really really doubt it :\

I'm not drawing any conclusions. But it would be nice to be able to overclock an i3 again.

 

[Fx1]

I'm quite sober. Ignorant, anti-intellectual cunts like you piss me off.
Okay? Welcome to life -- mistakes happen. How old are you, five? Pretty much everybody older than that has figured out that not every product that comes out of a factory is manufactured correctly.
Overclocking voids the warranty already, dumbass. You're just mad that you can't overclock it to high heaven and get away with it.

Like I said: You're selfish.
That's because you're [a wonderful person]. Real shocker there!

Since I have to spoon-feed everything to your infantile brain, allow me:

People that overclock are in a very, very small minority. People that push their systems to their absolute max -- in the ranges that we're talking about here -- are an even smaller minority. I.e. (this means "that is," which you probably didn't know), not everybody who overclocks pushes it to the maximum stable clocks.

The number of users directly affected by a switch in TIM are incredibly small. I'm throwing out a 1% number. I don't know what it actually is, but you'd be an idiot to suggest that it's a statistically relevant number.

On the other hand, the rest of the users out there don't give a [hoot]. Soldering the IHS raises cost, and it's not just some cheap tin solder either. These costs are passed onto the consumer. Intel has pretty high margins, but you'd have to be economically illiterate to suggest that the manufacturing cost has no influence on the retail pricing.

Since 99% of users are virtually unaffected by the change in TIM and could benefit from the cost savings, it is selfish to suggest that the costs be passed onto everybody for the benefit of the 1%. Since you are suggesting this, you are selfish.

Q.E.D.

Here's news for you: AMD uses cheap paste on their CPUs as well. Why aren't you moaning about them? Because Ivy Bridge got caught up in bad press -- AMD's processor did not. There have been past Intel CPUs that use cheap TIM as well, and I bet you didn't hear anything about them. You have been brainwashed by the enthusiast community into believing that this is a big deal.

Id guess than more than 1% of the 3770k owners overclock. This is kind of the point in buying a unlocked multi CPU. Genius.

Also overclocking doesnt void the warranty at all or at least they dont enforce it. This is why you have unlocked multiple CPU's. Im pretty sure intel will replace a CPU if it died running at 4ghz rather than 3.6ghz. Also intel provides the actual tools to overclock and advertises it as a feature. HERE http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/gaming/overclocking/overclocking-intel-processors.html

i certainly had a replacement for an intel CPU which died.

 

[Maximilian]

I'm not drawing any conclusions. But it would be nice to be able to overclock an i3 again.

Yeah would be pretty epic, those i3 530's were great chips :thumbsup:

 

[Homeles]

Id guess than more than 1% of the 3770k owners overclock. This is kind of the point in buying a unlocked multi CPU. Genius.

So Intel's going to create a separate assembly line just so they can solder a small subset of the CPUs they sell? And what if they don't know if a CPU qualifies as a K series processor until after it's been put in its package?

[redacted] You really are as stupid as they come!

Also overclocking doesnt void the warranty at all. This is why you have unlocked multiple CPU's. Im pretty sure intel will replace a CPU if it died running at 4ghz rather than 3.6ghz. Also intel provides the actual tools to overclock and advertises it as a feature. HERE http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/gaming/overclocking/overclocking-intel-processors.html

At the bottom of the page:

1. Warning: Altering clock frequency and/or voltage may: (i) reduce system stability and useful life of the system, processor, and other system components; (ii) cause the processor and other system components to fail; (iii) cause reductions in system performance; (iv) cause additional heat or other damage; and (v) affect system data integrity. Intel has not tested, and does not warranty, the operation of the processor beyond its specifications. Intel has not tested, and does not warranty, the operation of other system components beyond their industry standard specifications. Intel assumes no responsibility that the processor and other system components, including if used with altered clock frequencies and/or voltages, will be fit for any particular purpose.

GG, dumbass.

i certainly had a replacement for an intel CPU which died.

If you overclocked it, then you broke the terms of the warranty. Pretty sure that's illegal.

More cussing and insults, another infraction. 3rd time gets you a weeks vacation.
Markfw900
Anandtech Moderator.

 

[cytg111]

That is exactly what they claim.

Looking at the evidence of ppl delidding and getting a 20+ degree drop in temps, they still ONLY get another 200mhz headroom on their overclock.. 200mhz is nothing, what will it yield, another 1 fps in their favorite fps? If the chip is running happily along at 200 degrees, 100, 50 or 0 .. what the frack do I care? (not much!).

 

[cytg111]

So Intel's going to create a separate assembly line just so they can solder a small subset of the CPUs they sell? And what if they don't know if a CPU qualifies as a K series processor until after it's been put in its package?

[redacted] You really are as stupid as they come!
At the bottom of the page:

GG, dumbass.

- Dude .. tone it down

 

[Fx1]

So Intel's going to create a separate assembly line just so they can solder a small subset of the CPUs they sell? And what if they don't know if a CPU qualifies as a K series processor until after it's been put in its package?

[redacted] You really are as stupid as they come!
At the bottom of the page:

GG, dumbass.

That last bit actually says it doesnt warranty the operation of other system components. It actually doesnt say that it doesnt warranty overclocked CPU's or that overclocking voids your warranty either.

Intel dont need a separate production line either. You have no idea about intels production.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=64840

Here is a guy thats got 40c difference! So i guess i wasnt talking rubbish after all.

 

[Homeles]

That last bit actually says it doesnt warranty the operation of other system components. It actually doesnt say that it doesnt warranty overclocked CPU's or that overclocking voids your warranty either.

I bolded the wrong part. Here:

Intel has not tested, and does not warranty, the operation of the processor beyond its specifications.

There you go.

Intel dont need a separate production line either. You have no idea about intels production.

If they're going to only solder the unlocked processors, they will need a separate assembly line. This adds a lot to the the cost, and since there are very few enthusiasts to subsidize the additional cost, the price of K series processors would skyrocket.

Or they can solder everything, adding to the costs of the non-K series processors. The vast majority of users then have to pay more for a benefit that does not apply to them.

Option 3 is that they use crappy paste on everything. Nobody except a vocal, selfish minority is affected.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=64840

Here is a guy thats got 40c difference! So i guess i wasnt talking rubbish after all.

Do you not understand what a manufacturer defect is?

According to your logic, Dell would be holding back performance because they forgot to put thermal paste or a thermal pad on one their CPUs.

 

[Fx1]

I bolded the wrong part. Here:

There you go.
If they're going to only solder the unlocked processors, they will need a separate assembly line. This adds a lot to the the cost, and since there are very few enthusiasts to subsidize the additional cost, the price of K series processors would skyrocket.

Or they can solder everything, adding to the costs of the non-K series processors. The vast majority of users then have to pay more for a benefit that does not apply to them.

Option 3 is that they use crappy paste on everything. Nobody except a vocal, selfish minority is affected.
Do you not understand what a manufacturer defect is?

According to your logic, Dell would be holding back performance because they forgot to put thermal paste or a thermal pad on one their CPUs.

You can run multiple configurations on a single production line. you dont need separate one.

Also anyone who buys a 3770k would want proper solder TIM for maximum overclocks and 3700k users ARE PAYING extra already so yeh they would expect a benefit they pay for... overclocking potential.

Also its not a defect when the thermal performance is poor due to poor TIM. Its poor design. Some CPU will be worse than others but nearly all will clock worse than the one with solder such as the Sandy's

 

[aarontpx]

I believe the threshold for Intel to solder the IHS is somewhere in the 80-90w range. Anything over they solder, anything under they do not. Thus sandy bridge (95w) got soldered and ivy bridge (77w) did not. Perhaps someone else can verify this, I thought I read something about that awhile back.

 

[Homeles]

You can run multiple configurations on a single production line. you dont need separate one.

You'd have to retool the existing one. Either way, it's cost prohibitive.

Also anyone who buys a 3770k would want proper solder TIM for maximum overclocks and 3700k users ARE PAYING extra already so yeh they would expect a benefit they pay for... overclocking potential.

Is it worth dozens to hundreds of dollars extra? Because that's what it would cost for everybody that wanted to pay for that premium.

Also its not a defect when the thermal performance is poor due to poor TIM. Its poor design. Some CPU will be worse than others but nearly all will clock worse than the one with solder such as the Sandy's

These wild temperature claims you are making are all when run out of spec, so your argument is invalid.

Keep them coming. You really love to be proven wrong -- you're quite the masochist.

 

[Fx1]

You'd have to retool the existing one. Either way, it's cost prohibitive.
Is it worth dozens to hundreds of dollars extra? Because that's what it would cost for everybody that wanted to pay for that premium.
These wild temperature claims you are making are all when run out of spec, so your argument is invalid.

Keep them coming. You really love to be proven wrong -- you're quite the masochist.

Intel has the tooling already since they solder nearly all their chips before Ivy.

It doesnt cost hundreds of dollars to solder rather than use paste. Sandy didnt cost any more than Ivy.

A 3770k is made to run out of spec. So its a valid point.

 

[Hulk]

Whether we like it or not Intel has the right to run their business as they see fit. They seem to have done pretty well so far. If I was the top dog in a market I wouldn't "give away the shop" either. I'd save it for a rainy day.

Nobody is forced to buy Intel.

All of this is simply the result of a lack of competition.

 

[Fx1]

Whether we like it or not Intel has the right to run their business as they see fit. They seem to have done pretty well so far. If I was the top dog in a market I wouldn't "give away the shop" either. I'd save it for a rainy day.

And of course nobody is forced to buy Intel. The problem of course is simply a lack of competition.

This is kind of my point.

We can all see intel drip feeding the market. We dont need to deny it to make our selves feel better when we have to buy intel. Its clear to my eyes that intel isnt pushing performance like it was.

As i said this is most likely because of AMD's lack of performance and Arms low power. Which is why Haswell isnt any faster but uses less power... Coincidence is it Homeles?

 

[Homeles]

Intel has the tooling already since they solder nearly all their chips before Ivy.

It doesnt cost hundreds of dollars to solder rather than use paste. Sandy didnt cost any more than Ivy.

Once again: how do you determine which processors are "K-worthy" prior to packaging them?

A 3770k is made to run out of spec. So its a valid point.

Good grief you are illiterate. It is not "made" to run out of spec. It is the same silicon as a 3770 with different fuses blown. Go read the warranty disclaimers again. And again. And again.

 

[Markfw]

Once again: how do you determine which processors are "K-worthy" prior to packaging them?

Good grief you are illiterate. It is not "made" to run out of spec. It is the same silicon as a 3770 with different fuses blown. Go read the warranty disclaimers again. And again. And again.

Sold with an unlocked multiplier with the intent that people will buy it for its overclocking potential. I call that "made to run out of spec" Semantics.....

 

[Fx1]

Once again: how do you determine which processors are "K-worthy" prior to packaging them?

Good grief you are illiterate. It is not "made" to run out of spec. It is the same silicon as a 3770 with different fuses blown. Go read the warranty disclaimers again. And again. And again.

The processors are probably binned long before the IHS is put on. If its true that sub 77w CPU's get Paste and others get solder then this would be true as dual core chips wouldnt get solder since most are quads with deactivated cores.

It doesnt matter if intel has official warranty or not. You can get a warranty plan for overclocking from intel so they are made to be overclocked the K series is anyway!

 

[jpiniero]

Sold with an unlocked multiplier with the intent that people will buy it for its overclocking potential. I call that "made to run out of spec" Semantics.....

You know, I've wondered what Intel would do wrt K models if they were confident that the headroom was little or none.

 

[Homeles]

Sold with an unlocked multiplier with the intent that people will buy it for its overclocking potential. I call that "made to run out of spec" Semantics.....

Intel and AMD both know that in the vast majority of cases that they can't catch people that claim their CPU died and never overclocked. People are going to break the rules -- why not make a profit off of it?

The processors are probably binned long before the IHS is put on.

If that's true, go write Intel a letter. Moaning on hardware forums is not very productive.

If its true that sub 77w CPU's get Paste and others get solder then this would be true as dual core chips wouldnt get solder since most are quads with deactivated cores.

Source?

It doesnt matter if intel has official warranty or not. You can get a warranty plan for overclocking from intel so they are made to be overclocked the K series is anyway!

Then go buy the warranty. Or continue being dishonest and send in processors that you've voided the warranty on.

This is kind of my point.

We can all see intel drip feeding the market. We dont need to deny it to make our selves feel better when we have to buy intel. Its clear to my eyes that intel isnt pushing performance like it was.

Gee, it's almost as if Intel stopped blindly persuing perfromance and changed to a more intelligent strategy.

Seriously man, everybody is aware that performance is no longer the be-all and end-all of processor development. Only conspiracy theorists like you claim that they're holding it back just because they can.

As i said this is most likely because of AMD's lack of performance and Arms low power. Which is why Haswell isnt any faster but uses less power... Coincidence is it Homeles?

Yes, it is a coincidence. Industry innovation (get that? the entire industry!) would be higher if Intel were allowed to be a monopoly.

www.columbia.edu/~brg2114/files/dynduo.pdf

In this paper, we estimate a dynamic model of durable goods oligopoly with endogenous innovation and use it to assess the effect of competition on innovation in the PC microprocessor industry. Consumers are better off under a duopoly because of lower margins: consumer surplus is higher with AMD competing against Intel than without AMD. However, in support of Schumpeter’s hypothesis, industry innovation is higher with Intel as a monopolist.

There's also a very obvious fact that you seem to be missing: the massive growth in demand for ultraportable devices such as tablets and smartphones, and the stagnation of the PC market. They already have enough performance for these devices -- so does AMD. Have you not read Rory Read's claim that today's performance is enough for most people? It's not just Intel that has changed their strategy.

Intel's absolutely progressing. You and a very small, very uninformed minority think otherwise. The rest of us that know what we are talking about can see the big picture.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Then go buy the warranty. Or continue being dishonest and send in processors that you've voided the warranty on.

As long as you tell them that you were overclocking the CPU when it died, and if they choose to replace it, I don't see what the issue is.

 

[Homeles]

As long as you tell them that you were overclocking the CPU when it died, and if they choose to replace it, I don't see what the issue is.

I don't either. That wasn't my point.