Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: eits
why?Originally posted by: torpid
Makes some sense. But I am still never, ever, ever going to let a random chiropractor adjust anything near my neck. It would require detailed research before I would even begin to trust a chiropractor with my neck.
Because not all chiropractors know what the hell they are doing, and neck adjustments can lead to serious injury in the hands of quacks.
that's true, but you're kinda making a big deal out of something that happens so infrequently.
are there quacks out there? absolutely... without a doubt. but what makes them quacks isn't that they don't know how to adjust... it's that they don't know how to properly diagnose, they don't look for red flags or contraindications to adjusting certain areas, or they don't refer out when necessary... and/or they try and bullshit you into visiting the office more frequently than is necessary. it doesn't have as much to do with improperly adjusting segments.
as far as serious injuries from neck adjustments, the statistics show 1:1,000,000 patients who get a neck adjustment will have a stroke, but those who do tend to have a family history of stroke or a risk of having blood clots.
are there chiropractors out there who are horrible at adjusting and could potentially do damage, but they're very few and far between. why? because people won't go to them if they sucked... either that or they sucked so much that they got taken to court and now they can't afford to be in practice or they had their licenses taken.
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
Chiropractic is nothing more than an expensive massage.
really?
why the hell don't i know how to do massage then?
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: eits
i'm confused by what you mean by your second point.Originally posted by: Amused
1. The study used too small a sample.
2. They did not account for simple pain relief in the study. They needed a control for this and had none.
most people have misalignments that don't cause any pain whatsoever. i guarantee that if you were on my table, i'd be able to find some segments that you didn't realize were out of alignment until i pushed around on them (thanks to your group c nerve fibers and your thalamus). either way, it would be acute pain that would cause an increase in blood pressure... which still is not hypertension.
you're right, though... the sample is too small, which is why there are more studies being done with larger sample sizes.
His point, I believe, is that there should be a third group where pain relief is employed for comparison, since pain can cause high blood pressure. If the neck adjustment offered no additional benefit over pain relief, then many would be more inclined to use pain relief over chiropractic care given the costs.
no, i got his point... which was why i said what i said. you just didn't understand.
pain can't cause hypertension. it can cause a spike in blood pressure.
also, as i said before, everyone's built differently. some people have neck pain that starts in their neck. others have neck pain that starts from having a short leg. if you adjust the neck of the person who's problem starts from having a short leg, it won't help for shit. but if you put a heel lift in the shoe of the short leg side, then you can treat the neck pain.
therefore, you can't just get a large sample of people with neck pain and see if chiropractic adjustments help their pain because it wouldn't be a valid test, considering that chiropractors look at the whole body, not just a symptomatic area. you treat the symptom by finding and fixing the problem... not by treating the symptom.
Too bad you're not a real doctor:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/501272_5
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15722808
http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002299.html
that's chronic pain. different than acute pain, which was what i was talking about because that's what i thought you were talking about.
People with misaligned/burst/slipped disks have chronic pain. It may be more acute at times, but it's a recurring and chronic (long term) pain.
At any rate, pain causes high blood pressure as long as the pain exists.
Which is why I questioned why the study did not address pain relief.
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
Chiropractic is nothing more than an expensive massage.
really?
why the hell don't i know how to do massage then?
you can't be serious...
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: eits
.... that is true.when c1 is misaligned or twisted/rotated, it can pinch arteries and nerves in the neck's base, which not only causes discomfort, but also affects blood flow. that's why you get it adjusted... so that you get rid of the discomfort and to remove the pressure on arteries and nerves.
Which means that the technique is meant to alter nerves AND ARTERIES. Here is a quote from you earlier in the thread.
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: torpid
Considering they are adjusting the neck specifically to alter how it affects certain blood vessels [...]
they're not. they're adjusting the neck specifically to alter nerve function.
Let's just call this case closed since it is clear that you now agree that blood vessels are involved as well and the above statement was not entirely accurate. It was of minor significance except that it seemed odd to me that you wrote something that directly contradicted your own posted article.
a "very specialized chiropractic technique" is pretty much any valid chiropractic technique. this article was written for the layperson, not for people like me and other chiropractors. we already know about this stuff. we already know "specialized chiropractic techiques".
a non-specialized, non-specific "chiropractic" technique would be some manipulation someone like a physical therapist might utilize.
The actual quote is as follows:the procedure requires very special chiropractor training
So your supposition is that the only thing that is "very special" here is the training that ALL chiropractors with a degree receive?? In other words, it should read, "the procedure requires training which any chiropractor with a degree would have"? If so, that is some really stupid wording on their part.
let me let you in on a little secret... there's no such thing as an optimal technique. everyone's different and responds differently to different techniques. it's the chiropractor's job to use the best technique for an individual, which may not be the same as another individual with the same exact problem. everyone's structure is different, so where some techniques will fail, others might work and vice versa.
What is the difference between the "best technique" and the "optimal" one? Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that a chiropractor may not be medically trained to perform the "optimal" or "best technique" to solve a particular medical problem of an individual. Even if the neck adjustment in question is the optimal chiropractic technique available to chiropractors, it may not be the optimal technique available to all medical practitioners overall.
Assume for a moment that the technique works because of the vagus nerve stimulation involved. There are other means of stimulating the vagus nerve, and those would need to be compared to this technique before we know which one is "better."
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: eits
i'm confused by what you mean by your second point.Originally posted by: Amused
1. The study used too small a sample.
2. They did not account for simple pain relief in the study. They needed a control for this and had none.
most people have misalignments that don't cause any pain whatsoever. i guarantee that if you were on my table, i'd be able to find some segments that you didn't realize were out of alignment until i pushed around on them (thanks to your group c nerve fibers and your thalamus). either way, it would be acute pain that would cause an increase in blood pressure... which still is not hypertension.
you're right, though... the sample is too small, which is why there are more studies being done with larger sample sizes.
His point, I believe, is that there should be a third group where pain relief is employed for comparison, since pain can cause high blood pressure. If the neck adjustment offered no additional benefit over pain relief, then many would be more inclined to use pain relief over chiropractic care given the costs.
no, i got his point... which was why i said what i said. you just didn't understand.
pain can't cause hypertension. it can cause a spike in blood pressure.
also, as i said before, everyone's built differently. some people have neck pain that starts in their neck. others have neck pain that starts from having a short leg. if you adjust the neck of the person who's problem starts from having a short leg, it won't help for shit. but if you put a heel lift in the shoe of the short leg side, then you can treat the neck pain.
therefore, you can't just get a large sample of people with neck pain and see if chiropractic adjustments help their pain because it wouldn't be a valid test, considering that chiropractors look at the whole body, not just a symptomatic area. you treat the symptom by finding and fixing the problem... not by treating the symptom.
Too bad you're not a real doctor:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/501272_5
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15722808
http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002299.html
that's chronic pain. different than acute pain, which was what i was talking about because that's what i thought you were talking about.
People with misaligned/burst/slipped disks have chronic pain. It may be more acute at times, but it's a recurring and chronic (long term) pain.
At any rate, pain causes high blood pressure as long as the pain exists.
Which is why I questioned why the study did not address pain relief.
Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
Chiropractic is like man made global warming. They are both bullshit.
Originally posted by: eits
no... you don't get it. the fucking arteries are altered BY THE MISALIGNED vertebra. by adjusting it, you're getting rid of the alterations. however, THE PRIMARY GOAL of chiropractic care is to restore nerves to their optimal functional level. get it now? the focus is on the nerves going to the heart... not the artery. if the artery is freed by the adjustment, good. but that's not the purpose of the adjustment.
and, yes, all chiropractors are taught very specific techniques in adjusting the spine. it's not stupid wording on their part... it's wording that they're using in order to explain to the layperson that not just anyone can do these adjustments... just chiropractors.
an "optimal" technique is a technique that would be best for treating everyone. the "best technique for the individual" is the technique that suites that individual the best. big difference.
as far as studying other techniques to see if they work the same as the technique used in the study, sure... whatever... it doesn't matter. as long as the mechanism is studied (taking pressure off the vagus), it really doesn't matter. almost anyone who chiropractically adjusts to remove pressure off the vagus at c1, if they're a good chiropractor, would achieve the same goal. it's like you wanting to conduct a study on what the best way is to take your finger off a buzzer button.
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: eits
no... you don't get it. the fucking arteries are altered BY THE MISALIGNED vertebra. by adjusting it, you're getting rid of the alterations. however, THE PRIMARY GOAL of chiropractic care is to restore nerves to their optimal functional level. get it now? the focus is on the nerves going to the heart... not the artery. if the artery is freed by the adjustment, good. but that's not the purpose of the adjustment.
Then why did they mention it in the article? Which was my original point about the article being inaccurate. :roll:
and, yes, all chiropractors are taught very specific techniques in adjusting the spine. it's not stupid wording on their part... it's wording that they're using in order to explain to the layperson that not just anyone can do these adjustments... just chiropractors.
That wording is stupid because it does not correctly convey that meaning.
an "optimal" technique is a technique that would be best for treating everyone. the "best technique for the individual" is the technique that suites that individual the best. big difference.
This point of yours is degenerating into gibberish. Obviously there is no one magic medical procedure that works for every single person on the planet to cure every possible ailment. I never implied otherwise. I'm talking about whether a chiropractic technique would be the optimal one to address a condition that a chiropractor would treat with a neck adjustment. There are other forms of treatment other than those a chiropractor can use.
as far as studying other techniques to see if they work the same as the technique used in the study, sure... whatever... it doesn't matter. as long as the mechanism is studied (taking pressure off the vagus), it really doesn't matter. almost anyone who chiropractically adjusts to remove pressure off the vagus at c1, if they're a good chiropractor, would achieve the same goal. it's like you wanting to conduct a study on what the best way is to take your finger off a buzzer button.
No, it's not. This is a basic failure on your part to understand the difference between something working and something something working best. Going to a chiropractor regularly to get a neck adjustment is not anyone's ideal solution to any problem if there is a cheaper, longer-lasting approach. For example, if your vertebra is regularly misaligned, one might want to investigate why this is happening and formulate a long term solution to it that doesn't require regular chiropractic treatment.
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: eits
why?Originally posted by: torpid
Makes some sense. But I am still never, ever, ever going to let a random chiropractor adjust anything near my neck. It would require detailed research before I would even begin to trust a chiropractor with my neck.
Because not all chiropractors know what the hell they are doing, and neck adjustments can lead to serious injury in the hands of quacks.
that's true, but you're kinda making a big deal out of something that happens so infrequently.
are there quacks out there? absolutely... without a doubt. but what makes them quacks isn't that they don't know how to adjust... it's that they don't know how to properly diagnose, they don't look for red flags or contraindications to adjusting certain areas, or they don't refer out when necessary... and/or they try and bullshit you into visiting the office more frequently than is necessary. it doesn't have as much to do with improperly adjusting segments.
as far as serious injuries from neck adjustments, the statistics show 1:1,000,000 patients who get a neck adjustment will have a stroke, but those who do tend to have a family history of stroke or a risk of having blood clots.
are there chiropractors out there who are horrible at adjusting and could potentially do damage, but they're very few and far between. why? because people won't go to them if they sucked... either that or they sucked so much that they got taken to court and now they can't afford to be in practice or they had their licenses taken.
All of this is attributed to the fact that they have sub-par educations from some "Hollywood upstairs 'medical college'". Since all you need is a certificate of achievement to 'practice,' I see no legitimate reason to give the profession a passing thought when it comes to healthcare.
Sure, there are some out there that aren't bad, but it's the foundation and premise of the profession that is a big red flag. It allows far too many wackjobs and legitimate schiesters to carry the mantle.
Originally posted by: BornStarlet
I'm going to make a few medical points here and not use any naughty words...
1. chronic pain can cause hypertension, and the study was done in people suffering from hypertension AND neck pain.
2. The vagus nerve is a cranial nerve not a spinal nerve and should not be affected by a spinal misalignment.
3. 25 people followed for 8 weeks is a good pilot group, but not enough to make me change my practice.
4. The article you cited states:
"Johnson said people with neck pain and hypertension should visit their primary care physician first and not substitute the doctor's visit with a trip to the chiropractor."
which I believe is the important point to remember here. If you trust your chiropractor not to mess up your neck and why to try it go ahead, but you better still take your HCTZ/ACE-I/B-Blocker until your BP is controlled....
Originally posted by: eits
because it's explaining why chiropractic adjustments help at the c1 level.
yes it did.
ok.
sure, whatever. you're the chiropractor now. you know more than me.
fyi, part of a chiropractic treatment plan is to investigate what the patient is doing to keep the vertebra constantly going into misalignment and instruct them and teach them how to stop it. they even give them exercises that they can do at home to keep it from happening as much.
believe me, most chiropractors want you all better after your course of treatments and out the door for a long time instead of constantly coming in. why? because it makes them look good so you'll refer your friends. he doesn't wanna keep seeing you and have you go and tell your friends "i've been seeing a chiropractor for 15 years... why? oh, because i had a disc bulge 15 years ago..."... that just reeks of quack shit.
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: BornStarlet
I'm going to make a few medical points here and not use any naughty words...
1. chronic pain can cause hypertension, and the study was done in people suffering from hypertension AND neck pain.
2. The vagus nerve is a cranial nerve not a spinal nerve and should not be affected by a spinal misalignment.
3. 25 people followed for 8 weeks is a good pilot group, but not enough to make me change my practice.
4. The article you cited states:
"Johnson said people with neck pain and hypertension should visit their primary care physician first and not substitute the doctor's visit with a trip to the chiropractor."
which I believe is the important point to remember here. If you trust your chiropractor not to mess up your neck and why to try it go ahead, but you better still take your HCTZ/ACE-I/B-Blocker until your BP is controlled....
about #2, the vagus ganglion is at c1-2 area. also, it travels along cervical spine.
i agree with the rest... except i have some reservations about #4... not many, though.
Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
Chiropractic is like man made global warming. They are both bullshit.
Originally posted by: Mo0o
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: BornStarlet
I'm going to make a few medical points here and not use any naughty words...
1. chronic pain can cause hypertension, and the study was done in people suffering from hypertension AND neck pain.
2. The vagus nerve is a cranial nerve not a spinal nerve and should not be affected by a spinal misalignment.
3. 25 people followed for 8 weeks is a good pilot group, but not enough to make me change my practice.
4. The article you cited states:
"Johnson said people with neck pain and hypertension should visit their primary care physician first and not substitute the doctor's visit with a trip to the chiropractor."
which I believe is the important point to remember here. If you trust your chiropractor not to mess up your neck and why to try it go ahead, but you better still take your HCTZ/ACE-I/B-Blocker until your BP is controlled....
about #2, the vagus ganglion is at c1-2 area. also, it travels along cervical spine.
i agree with the rest... except i have some reservations about #4... not many, though.
Proper medical advice fail. If you're going to serve your customers fine, but please do not harm the MD-patient relationship by telling them you have reservations about what traditional medicine does. It's when you alternative medicine people start telling uninformed patients whtaever you want that we have lack of proper continuity and followup in medicine
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Mo0o
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: BornStarlet
I'm going to make a few medical points here and not use any naughty words...
1. chronic pain can cause hypertension, and the study was done in people suffering from hypertension AND neck pain.
2. The vagus nerve is a cranial nerve not a spinal nerve and should not be affected by a spinal misalignment.
3. 25 people followed for 8 weeks is a good pilot group, but not enough to make me change my practice.
4. The article you cited states:
"Johnson said people with neck pain and hypertension should visit their primary care physician first and not substitute the doctor's visit with a trip to the chiropractor."
which I believe is the important point to remember here. If you trust your chiropractor not to mess up your neck and why to try it go ahead, but you better still take your HCTZ/ACE-I/B-Blocker until your BP is controlled....
about #2, the vagus ganglion is at c1-2 area. also, it travels along cervical spine.
i agree with the rest... except i have some reservations about #4... not many, though.
Proper medical advice fail. If you're going to serve your customers fine, but please do not harm the MD-patient relationship by telling them you have reservations about what traditional medicine does. It's when you alternative medicine people start telling uninformed patients whtaever you want that we have lack of proper continuity and followup in medicine
Could you elaborate on this point? If your BP is controlled already by medicines, then you would have no way of knowing if the chiropractic technique is working without going off the meds afterwards. I'm assuming you mean if you are on BP meds and they AREN'T keeping it under total control, then it is dangerous to stop taking them unless advised to do so by the same doctor who prescribed them?
Originally posted by: eits
you have no idea what my reservations were... how can you criticize?
the resevations i have deal with finding the cause of the htn. if it's a c1 issue, no need for meds if you don't need them. that's not bad medical advice whatsoever. most medical doctors are even againt giving drugs when they're not necessary.
by the way, they're called patients, not customers.
go eat yourself. don't talk to me about misinforming anyone. i haven't misinformed anyone and don't plan on it. your extreme ignorance towards health and human anatomy and physiology in post form is enough misinformation to cause people a disservice. i don't come to your work and tell you what kind of cleaner to use to clean glass.
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Mo0o
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: BornStarlet
I'm going to make a few medical points here and not use any naughty words...
1. chronic pain can cause hypertension, and the study was done in people suffering from hypertension AND neck pain.
2. The vagus nerve is a cranial nerve not a spinal nerve and should not be affected by a spinal misalignment.
3. 25 people followed for 8 weeks is a good pilot group, but not enough to make me change my practice.
4. The article you cited states:
"Johnson said people with neck pain and hypertension should visit their primary care physician first and not substitute the doctor's visit with a trip to the chiropractor."
which I believe is the important point to remember here. If you trust your chiropractor not to mess up your neck and why to try it go ahead, but you better still take your HCTZ/ACE-I/B-Blocker until your BP is controlled....
about #2, the vagus ganglion is at c1-2 area. also, it travels along cervical spine.
i agree with the rest... except i have some reservations about #4... not many, though.
Proper medical advice fail. If you're going to serve your customers fine, but please do not harm the MD-patient relationship by telling them you have reservations about what traditional medicine does. It's when you alternative medicine people start telling uninformed patients whtaever you want that we have lack of proper continuity and followup in medicine
Could you elaborate on this point? If your BP is controlled already by medicines, then you would have no way of knowing if the chiropractic technique is working without going off the meds afterwards. I'm assuming you mean if you are on BP meds and they AREN'T keeping it under total control, then it is dangerous to stop taking them unless advised to do so by the same doctor who prescribed them?
Originally posted by: Mo0o
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Mo0o
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: BornStarlet
I'm going to make a few medical points here and not use any naughty words...
1. chronic pain can cause hypertension, and the study was done in people suffering from hypertension AND neck pain.
2. The vagus nerve is a cranial nerve not a spinal nerve and should not be affected by a spinal misalignment.
3. 25 people followed for 8 weeks is a good pilot group, but not enough to make me change my practice.
4. The article you cited states:
"Johnson said people with neck pain and hypertension should visit their primary care physician first and not substitute the doctor's visit with a trip to the chiropractor."
which I believe is the important point to remember here. If you trust your chiropractor not to mess up your neck and why to try it go ahead, but you better still take your HCTZ/ACE-I/B-Blocker until your BP is controlled....
about #2, the vagus ganglion is at c1-2 area. also, it travels along cervical spine.
i agree with the rest... except i have some reservations about #4... not many, though.
Proper medical advice fail. If you're going to serve your customers fine, but please do not harm the MD-patient relationship by telling them you have reservations about what traditional medicine does. It's when you alternative medicine people start telling uninformed patients whtaever you want that we have lack of proper continuity and followup in medicine
Could you elaborate on this point? If your BP is controlled already by medicines, then you would have no way of knowing if the chiropractic technique is working without going off the meds afterwards. I'm assuming you mean if you are on BP meds and they AREN'T keeping it under total control, then it is dangerous to stop taking them unless advised to do so by the same doctor who prescribed them?
Chiro should never be the first line of treatment for illness. But lots of patients end up going to chiropractors for things that can be properly treated w/ traditional medicine. It's a problem when unscupulous chiropractors try to treat more than what evidence based medicine suggests and get in the way of proper medical treatment. Patients end up substituting chiropractics for essential allopathic treatment rather than simply using it as a complement. That's not good.
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Mo0o
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: Mo0o
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: BornStarlet
I'm going to make a few medical points here and not use any naughty words...
1. chronic pain can cause hypertension, and the study was done in people suffering from hypertension AND neck pain.
2. The vagus nerve is a cranial nerve not a spinal nerve and should not be affected by a spinal misalignment.
3. 25 people followed for 8 weeks is a good pilot group, but not enough to make me change my practice.
4. The article you cited states:
"Johnson said people with neck pain and hypertension should visit their primary care physician first and not substitute the doctor's visit with a trip to the chiropractor."
which I believe is the important point to remember here. If you trust your chiropractor not to mess up your neck and why to try it go ahead, but you better still take your HCTZ/ACE-I/B-Blocker until your BP is controlled....
about #2, the vagus ganglion is at c1-2 area. also, it travels along cervical spine.
i agree with the rest... except i have some reservations about #4... not many, though.
Proper medical advice fail. If you're going to serve your customers fine, but please do not harm the MD-patient relationship by telling them you have reservations about what traditional medicine does. It's when you alternative medicine people start telling uninformed patients whtaever you want that we have lack of proper continuity and followup in medicine
Could you elaborate on this point? If your BP is controlled already by medicines, then you would have no way of knowing if the chiropractic technique is working without going off the meds afterwards. I'm assuming you mean if you are on BP meds and they AREN'T keeping it under total control, then it is dangerous to stop taking them unless advised to do so by the same doctor who prescribed them?
Chiro should never be the first line of treatment for illness. But lots of patients end up going to chiropractors for things that can be properly treated w/ traditional medicine. It's a problem when unscupulous chiropractors try to treat more than what evidence based medicine suggests and get in the way of proper medical treatment. Patients end up substituting chiropractics for essential allopathic treatment rather than simply using it as a complement. That's not good.
i believe the contrary to be true. a chiropractor should be the first choice. if it's not a problem chiropractic can fix, seek medical attention.