Hawaii ends Universal Child Care

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

i'm not against MEDICAL care for children, i'm against morons who think it isn't going to cost very much and expect people who are currently purchasing it themselves to not get it for 'free' from the state.

Originally posted by: Atheus

Well obviously you have to pay for it with taxes. Works fine elsewhere.

the article explains that hawaii can't afford to pay for it with taxes.

It doesn't cost very much... $25 per child per month, $600,000 a year.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

At some point common sense has to overcome emotions.

WHY is it MY job to pay for YOUR children? If you extend that logic, why dont I pay your rent too, that way the child has a place to live? And your food, and hell maybe you can just do nothing but screw and I'll pay for everything.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

At some point common sense has to overcome emotions.

WHY is it MY job to pay for YOUR children? If you extend that logic, why dont I pay your rent too, that way the child has a place to live? And your food, and hell maybe you can just do nothing but screw and I'll pay for everything.

So you don't support public school then?

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

At some point common sense has to overcome emotions.

WHY is it MY job to pay for YOUR children? If you extend that logic, why dont I pay your rent too, that way the child has a place to live? And your food, and hell maybe you can just do nothing but screw and I'll pay for everything.

So you don't support public school then?

Thats a fine line.

I dont support public schools for people who dont have children. I have 3 kids. I dont see why on earth you should be required to pay for something you dont use (Assuming you dont have children). The burden of financial support for schools should fall to me and me alone as I am the one with the children!

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

At some point common sense has to overcome emotions.

WHY is it MY job to pay for YOUR children? If you extend that logic, why dont I pay your rent too, that way the child has a place to live? And your food, and hell maybe you can just do nothing but screw and I'll pay for everything.

Well, we can extend that logic the other way. Why should I pay for the roads you use? Maybe we can create a society where all of us are nickeled and dimed to death. We can create cars that know which roads you use every day and charge you accordingly. If you enter a building, you are charged a fee for using it. If you drink from a water fountain you are charged for it. If you use a restroom you are charged for it.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: StormRider
Well, we can extend that logic the other way. Why should I pay for the roads you use Maybe we can create a society where all of us are nickeled and dimed to death. We can create cars that know which roads you use every day and charge you accordingly. If you enter a building, you are charged a fee for using it. If you drink from a water fountain you are charged for it. If you use a restroom you are charged for it.

that was what the gas tax was for, to make the people using the roads bear the cost for them.

and, of course, oregon had a proposal of using a GPS device to track mileage on cars to accurately assess the road fee.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: StormRider

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

At some point common sense has to overcome emotions.

WHY is it MY job to pay for YOUR children? If you extend that logic, why dont I pay your rent too, that way the child has a place to live? And your food, and hell maybe you can just do nothing but screw and I'll pay for everything.

Well, we can extend that logic the other way. Why should I pay for the roads you use? Maybe we can create a society where all of us are nickeled and dimed to death. We can create cars that know which roads you use every day and charge you accordingly. If you enter a building, you are charged a fee for using it. If you drink from a water fountain you are charged for it. If you use a restroom you are charged for it.

Don't forget about things like public transportation, police/fire/emergency services, public television, etc., etc.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: StormRider
Well, we can extend that logic the other way. Why should I pay for the roads you use Maybe we can create a society where all of us are nickeled and dimed to death. We can create cars that know which roads you use every day and charge you accordingly. If you enter a building, you are charged a fee for using it. If you drink from a water fountain you are charged for it. If you use a restroom you are charged for it.

that was what the gas tax was for, to make the people using the roads bear the cost for them.

and, of course, oregon had a proposal of using a GPS device to track mileage on cars to accurately assess the road fee.

Who wants the government tracking their movements by GPS?

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: StormRider

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

At some point common sense has to overcome emotions.

WHY is it MY job to pay for YOUR children? If you extend that logic, why dont I pay your rent too, that way the child has a place to live? And your food, and hell maybe you can just do nothing but screw and I'll pay for everything.

Well, we can extend that logic the other way. Why should I pay for the roads you use? Maybe we can create a society where all of us are nickeled and dimed to death. We can create cars that know which roads you use every day and charge you accordingly. If you enter a building, you are charged a fee for using it. If you drink from a water fountain you are charged for it. If you use a restroom you are charged for it.

Well, taxes really do address everything you said.
Gas taxes for roads. If I drive 10,000 miles per year and you drive 1,000, who has paid more for the right to drive on the roads?
Water tax (Or utility). If a business has a fountain then they have absorbed the cost of the water I drink, which in turn is passed back onto the customers.

We already ARE nickel and dimed to death. The problem is, they tax everything we use and THEn they tax the money we make as well. At the end of the day you should sit down and figure up how much you REALLY spend in taxes....

 

[darincm]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Social medicine = fail.

Works well up here in Canada, and please dont spout propaganda about not being able to choose your own doctor or long wait times cause thats all bs

 

[nonameo]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

At some point common sense has to overcome emotions.

WHY is it MY job to pay for YOUR children? If you extend that logic, why dont I pay your rent too, that way the child has a place to live? And your food, and hell maybe you can just do nothing but screw and I'll pay for everything.

Isn't that called welfare?

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: darincm

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Social medicine = fail.

Works well up here in Canada, and please dont spout propaganda about not being able to choose your own doctor or long wait times cause thats all bs

You also dont have to have a real military because you know you are protected. Must be nice.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: darincm

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Social medicine = fail.

Works well up here in Canada, and please dont spout propaganda about not being able to choose your own doctor or long wait times cause thats all bs

You also dont have to have a real military because you know you are protected. Must be nice.

Yeah, that's it. America can't afford universal health care because we have such a large military.....oh, cut the military? Oops.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Who wants the government tracking their movements by GPS?

nobody, apparently. that's why it got shot down. remember?

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

At some point common sense has to overcome emotions.

WHY is it MY job to pay for YOUR children? If you extend that logic, why dont I pay your rent too, that way the child has a place to live? And your food, and hell maybe you can just do nothing but screw and I'll pay for everything.

So you don't support public school then?

Thats a fine line.

I dont support public schools for people who dont have children. I have 3 kids. I dont see why on earth you should be required to pay for something you dont use (Assuming you dont have children). The burden of financial support for schools should fall to me and me alone as I am the one with the children!

People without children benefit by living in a society of educated citizens who get better jobs as a result and therefore these citizens pay more taxes to pay for more schools, roads, libraries etc. etc....

Plus there's always the fact that someone else probably paid for their public education.

 

[umbrella39]

A small group of islands in the Pacific != the USA

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

At some point common sense has to overcome emotions.

WHY is it MY job to pay for YOUR children? If you extend that logic, why dont I pay your rent too, that way the child has a place to live? And your food, and hell maybe you can just do nothing but screw and I'll pay for everything.

So you don't support public school then?

Thats a fine line.

I dont support public schools for people who dont have children. I have 3 kids. I dont see why on earth you should be required to pay for something you dont use (Assuming you dont have children). The burden of financial support for schools should fall to me and me alone as I am the one with the children!

Its not a fine line.

You just said you don't think those with kids should have any of their taxes fund public school. I can only imagine how our country would be today if such an idea were implemented.

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: darincm

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Social medicine = fail.

Works well up here in Canada, and please dont spout propaganda about not being able to choose your own doctor or long wait times cause thats all bs

You also dont have to have a real military because you know you are protected. Must be nice.

Or they understand you don't need a military if you aren't in the habit of dropping bombs on brown people.

Originally posted by: Excelsior

You just said you don't think those with kids should have any of their taxes fund public school. I can only imagine how our country would be today if such an idea were implemented.

It would be the ultimate right-wing wet dream. The rich would get educated, and anyone else wouldn't, a lot of dumb people are easier to control then smart ones.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: StormRider

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

At some point common sense has to overcome emotions.

WHY is it MY job to pay for YOUR children? If you extend that logic, why dont I pay your rent too, that way the child has a place to live? And your food, and hell maybe you can just do nothing but screw and I'll pay for everything.

Well, we can extend that logic the other way. Why should I pay for the roads you use? Maybe we can create a society where all of us are nickeled and dimed to death. We can create cars that know which roads you use every day and charge you accordingly. If you enter a building, you are charged a fee for using it. If you drink from a water fountain you are charged for it. If you use a restroom you are charged for it.

The pricing model of roads, schools, etc is different than that of healthcare. There's no economies of scale in healthcare, and its not a public good.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Socialized medicine will not work for one state on its own because people and businesses--especially anyone who ends up having to pay higher taxes under the program--are completely free to move to other states. In contrast, if it were federalized and implemented on a national scale people and businesses would not be able to do that. (Of course, jobs could be shipped to places like India and China unless tariffs and trade barriers are erected.)

I don't know if I'd want to use Hawaii as an example of what might happen in other states since Hawaii has its own unique problems (such as an insane cost for land and thus an insane cost of living).

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper


I don't know if I'd want to use Hawaii as an example of what might happen in other states since Hawaii has its own unique problems (such as an insane cost for land and thus an insane cost of living).

on the contrary, it should work great in one state as long as there aren't direct taxes on businesses because it should lower their cost as now they don't feel obliged to provide a medical insurance benefit. it should attract business. and people go where the jobs are. out caleeforneyway, so to speak.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

It doesn't matter whether you have socialized medicine, semi-socialized medicine like what we have today, or fully capitalist medicine if your overall economy is transforming into that of an impoverished third world country.

Here's a copy of a post I put up in the Economy thread. Given all of our nation's problems, is it possible that any medical system is going to be successful?

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: alchemize

Actually it will be the Obama recession & recovery.

What makes you think that this will only be a merely bad recession and what makes you think that there will be a "recovery"?

Will the recovery be based on lattes being served at Starbucks? I doubt that it will be based on a booming housing market. So just what would it be based on?

What makes you think the opposite?

Our economy has become a hollow shell and the basis for our having widespread prosperity has been eviscerated.

Much of the nation's manufacturing base has been outsourced along with many white collar jobs and others have been filled by foreigners on H-1B and L-1 visas. In the meantime, we have allowed mass immigration, both legal and illegal, to fuel a population explosion which increases the strength of Malthusian forces. Consequently, many working class Americans have been displaced by illegals in formerly lower-middle class fields such as construction. So, it seems as though the ladders of upward mobility that the nation utilized in the past are no longer present. Since the supply of labor relative to capital has increased dramatically, the basis for Americans having middle class wages and a middle class standard of living is no longer present. (This is what's called Global Labor Arbitrage.)

Also, we are in the midst of a Global Malthusian Crisis. The world's population, and, specifically, the population of people worldwide who are using oil has increased dramatically, raising the prices for energy resources. Here at home as a result of our own domestic population explosion, the price of energy has increased along with the cost of food. Some parts of the nation have reported water shortages and the increased population will put an increased strain on the environment in addition to increasing the burden on our nation's infrastructure.

That's why I have concluded that this is not an ordinary recession but rather the beginning of a structural change in our nation's economy. It is the start of a transformation of the United States into a third world country.

Our nation's problems are daunting and a tremendous amount of effort would be required to slow, stop, and reverse the trend. By the time Americans realize what is happening, if ever, it will be too late. In the meantime instead of identifying the nation's real economic problems the media and our politicians tell the people that the solution to their problems is better education (for non-existent job positions) and the sheeple gobble up that advice as though it were the new opium of the masses.

I predict that the U.S. will become the next India--overpopulated and impoverished. At best I think we'll end up like a South American country, perhaps like Brazil. The United States as we have known it--as a nation with a strong middle class and widespread prosperity--is over. It really doesn't matter much whether Obama or McCain wins the election; these problems are daunting and almost intractable. (For all intents and purposes, they are basically the same as far as the relevant issues are concerned.)

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: winnar111

How many jobs are created by the Iraq war?

What we need to wonder about is, what happens when the troops come back home? Will it result in a couple hundred thousand unemployed troops (or a couple hundred thousand people who filled in for them at the jobs they left)?

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: StormRider

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

At some point common sense has to overcome emotions.

WHY is it MY job to pay for YOUR children? If you extend that logic, why dont I pay your rent too, that way the child has a place to live? And your food, and hell maybe you can just do nothing but screw and I'll pay for everything.

Well, we can extend that logic the other way. Why should I pay for the roads you use? Maybe we can create a society where all of us are nickeled and dimed to death. We can create cars that know which roads you use every day and charge you accordingly. If you enter a building, you are charged a fee for using it. If you drink from a water fountain you are charged for it. If you use a restroom you are charged for it.

The pricing model of roads, schools, etc is different than that of healthcare. There's no economies of scale in healthcare, and its not a public good.

Why wouldn't health care scale, because other countries seem to manage it fine. Instead of sending the cash to a health insurance company, the money is sent a central company that does it instead, and cuts down on all the paperwork and inefficiency in the healthcare market.
Also health care not being a public good is insane. How could not improving the health of the entire nation and improving the quality of life not be a public good?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Atheus
I know American politics is a completely different world to that in which I live, and there are many things I don't understand about it, but how could anyone be against healthcare for children? It just seems a completely barbaric and horrible thing to say for anyone in this corner of the planet. Even if you believe poor people should simply be allowed to die if they get ill, which I don't agree with but can accept as a valid opinion, why should the same apply to their children? It's not their fault who their parents are...

Answer:

Health care does not grow on trees. In order to provide health care for children, someone has to pay for it. Basically, Americans don't want to pay for other people's problems and irresponsible behavior (such as having more children than you can afford to take care of) and who can blame them.

In reality Americans are already paying for health care for children and the poor (and illegal aliens). We already have semi-socialized medicine in this country. If you're sick you can just go to a hospital's emergency room and you will receive treatment at the hospital's expense. This is one of the reasons why the cost of health insurance has skyrocketed in this country; a huge amount of the expense goes to subsidizing health care for the poor.