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tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,866
517
126
Originally posted by: MODEL3
If you see a picture of a 4350 with 512MB,
you will see that the memory ICs are only 2!
And the memory configuration is 8Mx32
I've never seen 4350 board with only two ICs. I've seen boards with two ICs per side, four in total. There have been other graphics cards that only used two ICs, which I will show in a moment.

Is the "memory configuration" a term that used per IC?
No, its the configuration or mode of the memory controller, not the IC. We know this because 8Mx32 IC = 256Mbit (32Mbyte). Two 8Mx32 IC = 64MBytes, not 512MBytes. Therefore, the IC organization could not possibly be 8Mx32.

I just don't remember any DDR2 or GDDR3 based GPU that had 8, 16, or even 32bit memory bus!

S3 Graphics Chrome 20 Series Graphics Processors

DDR3/GDDR2/GDDR1 Memory Interface

* 128/64/32-bit memory bus


Several older boards supporting "Turbo Cache" (NV) or "Hyper Memory" (ATI) featured cut-down 32-bit memory bus. e.g.

BIOSTAR GeForce 6200LE 64MB 32-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16
 

MODEL3

Senior member
Jul 22, 2009
528
0
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
I've never seen 4350 board with only two ICs. I've seen boards with two ICs per side, four in total. There have been other graphics cards that only used two ICs, which I will show in a moment.

I have seen! (with my own eyes) , if you don't believe me here I found a link!

http://www.motherboards.org/re...s/hardware/1824_3.html

There are two 1024 Megabit memory chips on the front of the card next to the fan. Each chip is clocked at 500MHz, giving a total of 256MB of DDR2 memory rated at 2ns. The ATI reference card doesn?t have a Crossfire bridge so to install more than a single card requires Hybrid Crossfire. The rear of the card has the circuitry for the card, the fan mounting bracket and the Part Number sticker.


Originally posted by: tcsenter
No, its the configuration or mode of the memory controller, not the IC. We know this because 8Mx32 IC = 256Mbit (32Mbyte). Two 8Mx32 IC = 64MBytes, not 512MBytes. Therefore, the IC organization could not possibly be 8Mx32

Can you explain to me what exactly are the 8M and what are the X32?



Originally posted by: tcsenter
S3 Graphics Chrome 20 Series Graphics Processors

DDR3/GDDR2/GDDR1 Memory Interface

* 128/64/32-bit memory bus


Several older boards supporting "Turbo Cache" (NV) or "Hyper Memory" (ATI) featured cut-down 32-bit memory bus. e.g.

BIOSTAR GeForce 6200LE 64MB 32-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16

You missed the words in bold:

Originally posted by: MODEL3
I just don't remember any DDR2 or GDDR3 based GPU that had 8, 16, or even 32bit memory bus!

I am familiar with the examples you gave:

The first is GDDR1 & the second is GDDR2!

I asked about newer technologies like DDR2/GDDR3/DDR3 (that's the technologies "5350" will use)

 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,866
517
126
Originally posted by: MODEL3
I have seen! (with my own eyes) , if you don't believe me here I found a link!

http://www.motherboards.org/re...s/hardware/1824_3.html
Then you need glasses. There are clearly FOUR memory chips on the ATI reference card shown; two on each side. The memory chip part number can be clearly identified as HYB18T512161B2F ( datasheet ). These are 512Mbit parts, not 1024Mbit as the article (erroneously) states.

Originally posted by: MODEL3
I am familiar with the examples you gave:

The first is GDDR1 & the second is GDDR2!

I asked about newer technologies like DDR2/GDDR3/DDR3 (that's the technologies "5350" will use)
The GeForce 6200LE uses DDR2, not GDDR2. Besides, your expectation is retarded. If "5350" will use "newer technologies" that are not already in use on numerous other graphics cards including 4350, then why would you ask for current examples of something that is not yet being used?

What is your question, anyway? I see you bugging out about memory bus widths and DRAM IC counts, but have yet to discern what your point actually is.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: MODEL3
Well at first, you confused me saying that the there are only two possibilities[/u]!

Originally posted by: Idontcare
I could be wrong here but isn't the bus bit for an individual IC either 8bit (1 byte) or 16 bit (1 word)?

For example desktop Dimms are 64bit buses but the actual bit bus of the individual IC's on the dimms depends on the organization (x4, x8, or x16 are common organizations).

Now, you added the possibility to be 32bit!

Well if we add this possibility your scenario makes sense!

Ah, I think I see the source of confusion. I was discussing x8 and x16 memory organization as a means to explain to you why it is that YOU most commonly see 64bit interfaces with conventional commodity dram IC's.

At the same time, armed with this new understanding of how memory is organized and ranked, I was thinking it would be a straightforward leap then to understand why and how it is that other organizations of dram exist and the purpose they serve.

Its an inclusive versus exclusive thing. You are trying to equate 64bit dram standards as being exclusive the existence of any other configuration, which is not the case. 64bit is but one possible configuration, and can be arrived at with any 2^n organization structure of the IC's used.

The actual organization (that is the number that proceeds the "x" in the memory configuration, i.e. x32 vs x16 vs x8) of the IC's is usually intentionally selected such that the IO bit bus is matched (four x16 chips for 64bit, or eight x8 chips for 64bit, etc) to the desired capacity (that is the number that precedes the "x" in the memory configuration, i.e. 8Mx32 or 128Mx8) multiplied by the total number of IC's involved and then divided by the rank.

A dual-ranked memory configuration for example basically throws away half the potential IO bit bus but has the capacity. For example a dual-rank dimm will have 16 chips on it, but all those chips will be x8 organization. So the potential IO bus is 128bit, but because it is dual-ranked only half of the chips are addressable at a time, thus the IO is 128/2 = 64 bit in this case. But the user still gets to take advantage of the extra IC's in that the overall dimm capacity is 2x what it would have been had the dimm been designed as single-rank with only eight x8 chips.

That is all I was trying to communicate with that link to the presentation by asking you to just focus on those two slides, to better understand the meaning and utility of the terms rank and organization when it comes to memory ICs.

Originally posted by: MODEL3
The above term 8Mx32 has nothing to do with the memory bandwidth that the DDRAM is communicating with the memory controller!

It just means that each IC (256MBytes) has the following:

1. Each memory chip is essentially a matrix of tiny cells!

2. Each tiny cell holds one bit of information! (in the worst case scenario)

3. And since memory chips are described by how much information they can hold, we call this "chip density"!

4. The expression "8Mx32" it just describes what type of density we have!

It describes one kind of 256Mbyte chip (in this case) in more detail!

it just describe how the memory cells are divited!


5. 8M means 8 million cells,

and X 32 means that each cell being 32bit in width!

6. The fact that the cell is 32bit in width, it doesn't mean that the DDR technology must communicate at 32bit! (That's why it needs 2 ICs in order to achieve the 64bit number!

On the contrary, the DDR tech (STANDARD TYPE) can communicate "efficiently" only at 64bit or multiples of 64bit!


I mean that the width of the cell doesn't necessarely mean that the communication bandwidth automatically is the same!

It can be anything multiply of the cell width!

In the case of DDR tech the communication number standard is 64bit at the time! (the data being transferred 64 bits at a time always)

That's why we never saw before 48bit types of memory bandwidth in GPUs!

An x32 organized chip can be used in a 32bit bus as a standalone chip. It just means it isn't configured to operate as a 64bit standard DDR interface. There really isn't anything magical about this. I could design my memory controller to interface a single x32 IC or two x32 IC's or three x32 IC's (resulting in a 32bit, 64bit, or 96bit bus).

If I wanted to describe my device as being DDR 64bit IO compliant then I better do it as two x32 IC's so I'm not lying, but thats the point, once I build it all I need to is spec it out properly and everyone in the industry would inherently understand what I did. If I spec it out as a 96bit IO device then no one is going to raise an eyebrow.

Now DDR dimms for your desktop computer are speced out as being 64bit. So if everyone is going to use x8 organized IC's then your dimm had better have eight IC's on it. But you could have just as easily used x16 organized IC's on your dimm, albeit you'd only stick four IC's on the dimm (if you wanted to keep it as rank 1, otherwise you'd put eight x16 IC's on the dimm and it would become a rank 2 dimm to maintain 64bit IO compliance). Alternatively you could build your dimm with x32 organized IC's, albeit you'd just use two such IC's.

The difference here is capacity, if the density of x32 organized IC's is a scant 128M then your dimm is going to be a paltry 256M dimm, probably not a big market for dimms with only 256M on it. But if the density of x8 organized ICs is the same paltry 128M but you get to pack eight of them onto a dimm then you get the same 64bit IO but 4x more capacity (a 1GB dimm in this case).

This is true with GPU's as well, the organization of the GDDR IC's is intentionally selected (contracted) so that the capacity and the IO bus width match. At that point it just becomes a matter of cost. Choose to large of an IO bus and you have to pack (buy) so many IC's of the correct organization to match the aggregate IO and now your GPU needlessly costs a ton. Choose too low of an IO bus and you might not be able to get the density you want at the organization footprint you have to match your IO bus, resulting in a meager ram capacity board or you go dual-rank (or higher) and buy the capacity but throw away the potential IO bandwidth.
 

MODEL3

Senior member
Jul 22, 2009
528
0
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Originally posted by: MODEL3
I have seen! (with my own eyes) , if you don't believe me here I found a link!

http://www.motherboards.org/re...s/hardware/1824_3.html

Then you need glasses. There are clearly FOUR memory chips on the ATI reference card shown; two on each side. The memory chip part number can be clearly identified as HYB18T512161B2F ( datasheet ). These are 512Mbit parts, not 1024Mbit as the article (erroneously) states.

Like I told you I have seen 4350 with only 2 ICs, with my own eyes!

I just googled in order to provide you a link!

I just checked what the site was claiming! I already have seen such cards with my own eyes, why to check the pictures since the reviewer says that the ICs are 1024Mbit?

There are two 1024 Megabit memory chips on the front of the card next to the fan. Each chip is clocked at 500MHz, giving a total of 256MB of DDR2 memory rated at 2ns. The ATI reference card doesn?t have a Crossfire bridge so to install more than a single card requires Hybrid Crossfire. The rear of the card has the circuitry for the card, the fan mounting bracket and the Part Number sticker.

Look if you like, go to a store someday and see if you can find a low profile 4350 with 2ICs!

But I can't understand why your focus is on the 4350,
you lose the big picture which is, that i used the 4350 only as an example to show that 64bit interface can be achieved with only 2 ICs!

I could have used any example i had on my mind at that time! (it doesn't play any role at all in the point i was making, if the GPU is 4350 or something else)

Originally posted by: tcsenter
Originally posted by: MODEL3
I am familiar with the examples you gave:

The first is GDDR1 & the second is GDDR2!

I asked about newer technologies like DDR2/GDDR3/DDR3 (that's the technologies "5350" will use)
The GeForce 6200LE uses DDR2, not GDDR2. Besides, your expectation is retarded. If "5350" will use "newer technologies" that are not already in use on numerous other graphics cards including 4350, then why would you ask for current examples of something that is not yet being used?

What is your question, anyway? I see you bugging out about memory bus widths and DRAM IC counts, but have yet to discern what your point actually is.

1. In the link you provided, the 6200LE use GDDR2!

http://detonator.dynamitedata....Item%3dN82E16814141035

Memory Size 64MB
Memory Interface 32-bit
Memory Type GDDR2


2.I see that you are a lifer here!
Thanks for your comment about my expectations!

See below:

You see the DDR2 & GDDR3 are newer technologies than DDR1 & GDDR2!
And they are already in use many many years now!


It is perfectly clear why you haven't discern what my point is!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't like at all where is heading this, this was my last reply to you!
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
Originally posted by: lopri
Originally posted by: Janooo
Video at PC Perspective.

Interesting stuff, check it out.
That tessellation demo is really impressive.

Tessellation is a DX11 requirement, right? Will we be able to assume both Nvidia and AMD will have very similar tessellation units, or will they go about that in different ways? Anyone know? I don't know how complex the technology is. AMD has been using tessellation since the 2900's I think, maybe even earlier? I wonder if those cards will be able to use some of the DX11 features even if not fully supporting DX11.
 

MODEL3

Senior member
Jul 22, 2009
528
0
0
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: MODEL3
Well at first, you confused me saying that the there are only two possibilities[/u]!

Originally posted by: Idontcare
I could be wrong here but isn't the bus bit for an individual IC either 8bit (1 byte) or 16 bit (1 word)?

For example desktop Dimms are 64bit buses but the actual bit bus of the individual IC's on the dimms depends on the organization (x4, x8, or x16 are common organizations).

Now, you added the possibility to be 32bit!

Well if we add this possibility your scenario makes sense!

Ah, I think I see the source of confusion. I was discussing x8 and x16 memory organization as a means to explain to you why it is that YOU most commonly see 64bit interfaces with conventional commodity dram IC's.

At the same time, armed with this new understanding of how memory is organized and ranked, I was thinking it would be a straightforward leap then to understand why and how it is that other organizations of dram exist and the purpose they serve.

Its an inclusive versus exclusive thing. You are trying to equate 64bit dram standards as being exclusive the existence of any other configuration, which is not the case. 64bit is but one possible configuration, and can be arrived at with any 2^n organization structure of the IC's used.

The actual organization (that is the number that proceeds the "x" in the memory configuration, i.e. x32 vs x16 vs x8) of the IC's is usually intentionally selected such that the IO bit bus is matched (four x16 chips for 64bit, or eight x8 chips for 64bit, etc) to the desired capacity (that is the number that precedes the "x" in the memory configuration, i.e. 8Mx32 or 128Mx8) multiplied by the total number of IC's involved and then divided by the rank.

A dual-ranked memory configuration for example basically throws away half the potential IO bit bus but has the capacity. For example a dual-rank dimm will have 16 chips on it, but all those chips will be x8 organization. So the potential IO bus is 128bit, but because it is dual-ranked only half of the chips are addressable at a time, thus the IO is 128/2 = 64 bit in this case. But the user still gets to take advantage of the extra IC's in that the overall dimm capacity is 2x what it would have been had the dimm been designed as single-rank with only eight x8 chips.

That is all I was trying to communicate with that link to the presentation by asking you to just focus on those two slides, to better understand the meaning and utility of the terms rank and organization when it comes to memory ICs.

Originally posted by: MODEL3
The above term 8Mx32 has nothing to do with the memory bandwidth that the DDRAM is communicating with the memory controller!

It just means that each IC (256MBytes) has the following:

1. Each memory chip is essentially a matrix of tiny cells!

2. Each tiny cell holds one bit of information! (in the worst case scenario)

3. And since memory chips are described by how much information they can hold, we call this "chip density"!

4. The expression "8Mx32" it just describes what type of density we have!

It describes one kind of 256Mbyte chip (in this case) in more detail!

it just describe how the memory cells are divited!


5. 8M means 8 million cells,

and X 32 means that each cell being 32bit in width!

6. The fact that the cell is 32bit in width, it doesn't mean that the DDR technology must communicate at 32bit! (That's why it needs 2 ICs in order to achieve the 64bit number!

On the contrary, the DDR tech (STANDARD TYPE) can communicate "efficiently" only at 64bit or multiples of 64bit!


I mean that the width of the cell doesn't necessarely mean that the communication bandwidth automatically is the same!

It can be anything multiply of the cell width!

In the case of DDR tech the communication number standard is 64bit at the time! (the data being transferred 64 bits at a time always)

That's why we never saw before 48bit types of memory bandwidth in GPUs!

An x32 organized chip can be used in a 32bit bus as a standalone chip. It just means it isn't configured to operate as a 64bit standard DDR interface. There really isn't anything magical about this. I could design my memory controller to interface a single x32 IC or two x32 IC's or three x32 IC's (resulting in a 32bit, 64bit, or 96bit bus).

If I wanted to describe my device as being DDR 64bit IO compliant then I better do it as two x32 IC's so I'm not lying, but thats the point, once I build it all I need to is spec it out properly and everyone in the industry would inherently understand what I did. If I spec it out as a 96bit IO device then no one is going to raise an eyebrow.

Now DDR dimms for your desktop computer are speced out as being 64bit. So if everyone is going to use x8 organized IC's then your dimm had better have eight IC's on it. But you could have just as easily used x16 organized IC's on your dimm, albeit you'd only stick four IC's on the dimm (if you wanted to keep it as rank 1, otherwise you'd put eight x16 IC's on the dimm and it would become a rank 2 dimm to maintain 64bit IO compliance). Alternatively you could build your dimm with x32 organized IC's, albeit you'd just use two such IC's.

The difference here is capacity, if the density of x32 organized IC's is a scant 128M then your dimm is going to be a paltry 256M dimm, probably not a big market for dimms with only 256M on it. But if the density of x8 organized ICs is the same paltry 128M but you get to pack eight of them onto a dimm then you get the same 64bit IO but 4x more capacity (a 1GB dimm in this case).

This is true with GPU's as well, the organization of the GDDR IC's is intentionally selected (contracted) so that the capacity and the IO bus width match. At that point it just becomes a matter of cost. Choose to large of an IO bus and you have to pack (buy) so many IC's of the correct organization to match the aggregate IO and now your GPU needlessly costs a ton. Choose too low of an IO bus and you might not be able to get the density you want at the organization footprint you have to match your IO bus, resulting in a meager ram capacity board or you go dual-rank (or higher) and buy the capacity but throw away the potential IO bandwidth.

O.K. my friend, i can see your points!
So it can be done, technically!

Like i said in my previous posts, essentially in this case, it doesn't change the fact that the probabilities to happen the 48bit scenario are very limited:

Originally posted by: MODEL3
Because, like you said the 48bit scenario will need 3 or 6 chips!

The 64bit needs just 1 or 2 chips, so this 48bit scenario will add the cost certainly,
which is not a good thing since we are talking for below 50$ GPUs!

Also since the 4350 is already bandwidth limited at 64bit, I can imagine that the 4350 will be even more bandwidth limited at 48bit,

so what this mean for a future much faster DX11 architecture?

It means that the "5350" will be extremely bandwidth limited!

Imagine the scenario (worst case) that the "5350" will have 8 ROPs instead of the 4 ROPs of 4350!


 

faxon

Platinum Member
May 23, 2008
2,109
1
81
Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
Originally posted by: lopri
Originally posted by: Janooo
Video at PC Perspective.

Interesting stuff, check it out.
That tessellation demo is really impressive.

Tessellation is a DX11 requirement, right? Will we be able to assume both Nvidia and AMD will have very similar tessellation units, or will they go about that in different ways? Anyone know? I don't know how complex the technology is. AMD has been using tessellation since the 2900's I think, maybe even earlier? I wonder if those cards will be able to use some of the DX11 features even if not fully supporting DX11.

AMDs tessellator is a bit different than what's required of the DX11 tesselator, however DX11 is a superset of DX10 and 10.1 in that hardware which is only DX10 or 10.1 compliant will be able to take advantage of some of the features of DX11 which it is already capable of running. DX10 itself has been largely untapped due to issues with getting people to migrate to vista, so even with only DX10 hardware you will probably see some gains in DX11 titles with your current hardware running in reduced functionality mode. in some cases it might even net you better performance. i remember playing halo on a TI4800 in DX8 was faster than playing it in DX9 on similarly fast DX9 hardware because DX8 simply had less to render as a whole.
 

Janooo

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2005
1,067
13
81
Some numbers are coming up.

That same source has also a result of the flagship product RV870 (Cypress) on hand. But they did not disclose exact performance number, but a range in-between P16000 and P18000, which is almost twice the RV840 and passing the HD 4870 X2.
* Cypress/RV870: P16000-P18000
* Juniper/RV840: P95xx
* Redwood/RV830: P46xx
 

Relion

Senior member
Dec 21, 2004
294
0
0
Originally posted by: Idontcare
:shocked:

But will it play solitaire at a decent frame-rate?

:laugh:

Soltaire yes...but not Minesweeper...it requires PhysX for the explosion effects...
 

Griswold

Senior member
Dec 24, 2004
630
0
0
Originally posted by: Shaq
Originally posted by: ronnn
Originally posted by: OCguy


I can see a lot of 5XXX on ebay at the end of the year if GT300 stomps the 5XXX and isnt priced for royalty only.

May not be out by the end of the year.

A lot of sites are saying November at the latest. We'll see.

Must be the same sites that, over the last six months, claimed aug/sep/oct - now we've arrived at nov, what a surprise. My money is on 2010 and one expensive (for NV) hog.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
Originally posted by: Janooo
Some numbers are coming up.

That same source has also a result of the flagship product RV870 (Cypress) on hand. But they did not disclose exact performance number, but a range in-between P16000 and P18000, which is almost twice the RV840 and passing the HD 4870 X2.
  * Cypress/RV870: P16000-P18000
  * Juniper/RV840: P95xx
  * Redwood/RV830: P46xx

Source: "Asian bulletin board"
 

ShadowOfMyself

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2006
4,227
2
0
Originally posted by: OCguy
Originally posted by: Janooo
Some numbers are coming up.

That same source has also a result of the flagship product RV870 (Cypress) on hand. But they did not disclose exact performance number, but a range in-between P16000 and P18000, which is almost twice the RV840 and passing the HD 4870 X2.
  * Cypress/RV870: P16000-P18000
  * Juniper/RV840: P95xx
  * Redwood/RV830: P46xx

Source: "Asian bulletin board"

Because it looks too good to be true? Cant wait until Nvidia numbers come up to see what say then
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
76
Doesn't seem too good to be true. 100% performance increase from a next gen part has happened numerous times in the past. This also is the first time ATI is using the code name Rxxx in a long time. They used to use Rxxx for their top end and RVxxx for their value lines. R800 for 5870 X2 and RV870 for 5870. The use of the codename R instead of RV for their top spot seems to say that they are aiming for a top dog position.
 

solofly

Banned
May 25, 2003
1,421
0
0
This is going to be so much fun for me in the next couple of months. New ATI DX11 cards, new Intel solid state drives and of course new Windows 7 to dress it all up...
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
Originally posted by: solofly
This is going to be so much fun for me in the next couple of months. New ATI DX11 cards, new Intel solid state drives and of course new Windows 7 to dress it all up...

Indeed, good times!
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
Originally posted by: ShadowOfMyself

Because it looks too good to be true? Cant wait until Nvidia numbers come up to see what say then


No not really. Those could very well be legit. But I can still laugh at the source being quoted.
 

ShadowOfMyself

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2006
4,227
2
0
Originally posted by: thilan29
DX11 in action (supposedly) on new ATI cards in DiRT 2 (originally posted at XS):
http://vimeo.com/6182068

It would be cool if the new cards came with a DX11 game like DiRT 2 as a promotion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeR4HXTzt80

Dirt 2 clip there divided into 3 parts, watched it earlier, looks crazy good imo, love the shadows and reflections

Actually I think games are already reaching a point where they look better than real life lol which is exciting

And by "better" I mean in the same way a good photography does, it manages to capture light in a way we cant see with our own eyes, and its amazing to look at
 

Grabo

Senior member
Apr 5, 2005
251
56
101
Originally posted by: ShadowOfMyself

And by "better" I mean in the same way a good photography does, it manages to capture light in a way we cant see with our own eyes, and its amazing to look at

It's usually the post-processing of a photograph that makes it 'better than real life'. Dynamic range is still suck with digital cameras, and where will graphics 'better than real life' lead us anyway? The Matrix?
 
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