Help support AMD please

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GrimReaperPOH

Junior Member
May 15, 2002
4
0
0
I have been buying computers since the 286 days. In that time I have owned several computers, 2 of these which were AMD. I have never had a problem with Intel chips, I go for quality more than price. I agree Intel has the "household name" in chips. But never again will I buy an AMD cpu. My brother has one now, and is currently looking for an Intel based computer. At one time we both had HP computers, he had a 500mhz and I had a 433mhz Celeron. The Celeron would run circles around his computer. AMD needs to get on the bandwagon and get their PR people going and put a little more quality in their product. As I read the forums, not only here but elsewhere, one particular topic seems to always come up. Notice that the people who have trouble with their computers, 90% of the time look at what CPU they are using, this tells it all. I will probably get flamed for this response, so be it. But when the 3.0ghz P4's roll out in December, I will probably be the first in line to purchase one.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,001
126
I like AMD and all, but supporting the corporation just because they are losing money is plain dumb.
I agree. I work hard for my money and I'm certainly not going to buy something just because the company making it is having problems. I buy the product on its own merits and at the moment Intel is my favourite vendor.

If AMD does something special when it's time for me to upgrade again then by all means I'll go with them.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
Originally posted by: socketman
I think AMD will pull through with Hammer. The issue isnt whether hammer will be any good... The issue is the economy as a whole. If we are still in a recession, not many people are gonna buy CPUs anyway. You can have the best product on planet earth, but if people are worried about their jobs, mortgages and food - then it wont matter.
You are absolutely right.
Originally posted by: socketman
Competition is good.
Again... I couldn't agree more.
Originally posted by: socketman
I think its way to early to declare AMD is deep poo-poo. Lets see how Hammer does. If Hammer sales suck- then I will cringe in fear along with everyone else.
People do seem to overreact to news like this. And while I'm certain that AMD isn't thrilled about their position right now, they are much too talented and resourceful to be putting any nails in the coffin just yet. But yes, it does seem that Hammer is going to be key for them.
Originally posted by: socketman
Ill bet anyone here $100 it will spank Norhtwood and Prescott.
Put me down for $100.
 

KF

Golden Member
Dec 3, 1999
1,371
0
0
>Quote

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>In short when all things are factored in, that $55 Athlon is the only thing that makes sense. It just that a lot of people have a >misshapen sense of proportion. No one is 100% sensible. They are entitled to their mistakes. I don't begrudge them. But they are >wrong.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>No offense, but unless you're being sarcastic, this sounds very arrogant. Obviously, the 1.4GHz XP is the best CPU for you, but as >somebody else stated, not everybody rates CPUs the same way you do.

I accept your judgement that it sounds arrogant. When you state the truth baldly, it sounds arrogant. I tend to equivocate as a rule, and when I do, people miss the point. So this is the summary of what went before unequivocated.

I talk to a person who adores Feng Shui. Where this person picked it up, I don't know. I guess it beats dropping acid. Sometimes I point out an inconsistency or obvious falsehood in the Feng Shui rules, just to hint that I'm not buying it. I figure if this person is entitled to believe it, I am entitled to not believe it. If I were to say Feng Shui is utterly baseless and total nonsense as vocifereously and enthusiastically as this person expounds Feng Shui, I would sound arrogant and this person would get mad. Still, Feng Shui is complete, total, unmitigated garbarge.

It's not that Intel afficianados don't make good points, or even that high priced AMD CPUs don't deliver value in some (very atypical) cases. It's just that Intel afficianados sense of proportion is out of proportion. If they honestly evaluated the things they claim to value, they would buy the $55 Athlon. People have money to burn -$200 is nothing- and don't know where to burn it. They want shiney, flashy things. Because other people get excited about the latest flashy thing, they get excited too. From that, people who lurk here get a very false impression of the true value of computer hardware.

Let's make this semi-realistic. If you make money using your computer, and you can save time with a higher performance computer, you could get your computer for free, or even make money by buying the highest priced computer around. People who read the article know NVIDIA has a bank of computer racks, just a part of their total, containing nineteen million dollar plus computers each with 192 Gigabytes of memory. Elsewhere they have a rack containing 2800 CPUs. They probably spend more on electicity in a day than I have ever spent on my personal computer equipment. But NVIDIA comes out ahead because of their expenditure. Now we move to some corporation that has a large number of computers used by their office workers. They have computers of various ages and update them periodically. They could theoretically save money by buying new computers, even if they saved only a few minutes a day. Surely a 3GHz computer will outperform a 300MHz. How much should they spend on their new computers? One milllion dollars? Ten thousand? Three thousand? One thousand? So they buy the new computers, the employees are thrilled, and the company finds out productivity did not improve a bit, and in fact mysteriously seems to have dropped slightly. The old computers performed their tasks fast enough that they already kept up with the employees. The new OS interface is comfy and adorable, but it takes a few more steps to get where you need to go. If they got Intel CPUs in the new computers, they wasted their money.

Now we go to a home computer user. Unlike a typical home computer user, he likes to play FPS games, although is not a fanatic either, and he needs a high performance computer. All his games play fine, but his mobo is old. UT3 is coming out. He buys a $55 Athlon (+$15 HS), an Epox 8K3a to OC with, and his games still play fine, plus he can run benchmarks proving how wonderful the new computer is.

If we go to a typical home computer user, they can be happy with the computer that the Athlon/Epox combo replaced.

A glitch in the appeal of flashy items has put the chip industry into over-supply mode. America is not so socialist that we can't work out the misallocation of resources that the Federal Reserve induced, so things will straighten out and extravagance will rebound. I wouldn't count the day of the high-priced computer chip out. Someday Intel could again be selling consumer CPUs for over $1000, and AMD will follow behind them.



 

KF

Golden Member
Dec 3, 1999
1,371
0
0
>Every single $52 1600+ from a person that will buy an AMD chip takes away from teh $70 1700+, $80 1800+, etc Demand.
Does it? There is more demand at $52 than at $80. People are not necessarily willing to buy something for $80 dollars just because they are willing to buy something else for $52. Price point is one of those big things they do maketing studies on before they bring a product to market. There are a few magic numbers like $99.99. Suddenly demand goes up. $50 is probably it for Athlons, and AMD is squeezing it a little by going to $52.

>If you really want to help amd, dont' buy the $52 chip, buy the $120+ 2100+ or higher.
OTOH if you want to help AMD but only $52 worth, buy the $52 chip. If you don't give a **** about AMD and just think $52 is a bargain you can't pass up, buy it.

>This is the same with any "bargain" deal. Most often, companies lose money on the lowest end product. How much money would >Ford make if people only buy the cheapest, most stripped down Focus rather than the Fully Loaded Eddie Bauer Exploder? There is >no money for AMD to make on the $52 chip.

Companies do have price-leaders, bait-and-switch, and other marketing gimics. But offering a chip for $52 has no such round-about advantage. What would it be? AMD is minimizing losses at a time of surplus. If people don't buy the chips at $52, AMD is out $52, or they will have to drop it lower and get further behind.

> And as far as selling them, if newegg has them, AMD has already sold them. So its newegg's issue now.

For a few days it will be Neweggs problem, then its AMD's when they can't unload more chips to Newegg and have to drop the price further.



 

Analog

Lifer
Jan 7, 2002
12,755
3
0
AMD wouldn't exist without INTeL. They second sourced the 8088, and used their lawyers to figure out how to cheat INTeL of their intellectual rights (i.e. to clone other INTeL chips via microcode). I believe that INTeL doesn't mind having AMD around, as long as it remains wounded, but not dead. Although AMD does not innovate like INTeL, they do tend to fill in the gaps where INTeL products don't cover. Since the x86 war was won, AMD can only be seen as a distant ally...
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
16,215
0
71
I have already helped amd....Bought 3 chips last year...built 6 other machines including one just 1-1/2 months ago for my work computer....

I am Intel now but like Budman I am a hardware whore and can revert to one or the other at a moments notice....


HOWEVER!!! As stated...Most of you ppl applauding yourself for helping amd by buying their 1600+ and ocing to 2200+ instead of actually helping amd by moving those higher end chips they stand to make much more on. All the chips cost the same to make so go figure the 2200+ and its higher price stands to make AMD more cash...Do you guys really care or are you just riding AMD into the ground???? Your thirst for cheaper and cheaper chips that oc like mad are just as much hurting AMD....


I for one want AMD to stick around...They have made Intel chips affordable and overall have spurred a chip war that has pushed technology faster then it otherwise would have been...We may still be around 1 to 1.5ghz if it was not for AMD....

I think the whole cpu industry could stand a cool off period to allow software and its needs to catch up to the power of these cpus...World wide technology slump!!! How about glut of 1ghz chips sold in the last 1-1/2 years for ppl that 1ghz was about 2 times their current needs...these ppl are not needing to upgrade likely for another 1 to 1-1/2 years. Us, technolgy whores are the minorities we matter little to bottom line as compared to the millions of joe sixpacks...
 

CrazySaint

Platinum Member
May 3, 2002
2,441
0
0
Originally posted by: KF
>Quote

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>In short when all things are factored in, that $55 Athlon is the only thing that makes sense. It just that a lot of people have a >misshapen sense of proportion. No one is 100% sensible. They are entitled to their mistakes. I don't begrudge them. But they are >wrong.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>No offense, but unless you're being sarcastic, this sounds very arrogant. Obviously, the 1.4GHz XP is the best CPU for you, but as >somebody else stated, not everybody rates CPUs the same way you do.

I accept your judgement that it sounds arrogant. When you state the truth baldly, it sounds arrogant. I tend to equivocate as a rule, and when I do, people miss the point. So this is the summary of what went before unequivocated.

Yes, nothing sounds more arrogant thant hairless truth.

[I talk to a person who adores Feng Shui. Where this person picked it up, I don't know. I guess it beats dropping acid. Sometimes I point out an inconsistency or obvious falsehood in the Feng Shui rules, just to hint that I'm not buying it. I figure if this person is entitled to believe it, I am entitled to not believe it. If I were to say Feng Shui is utterly baseless and total nonsense as vocifereously and enthusiastically as this person expounds Feng Shui, I would sound arrogant and this person would get mad. Still, Feng Shui is complete, total, unmitigated garbarge.

It's not that Intel afficianados don't make good points, or even that high priced AMD CPUs don't deliver value in some (very atypical) cases. It's just that Intel afficianados sense of proportion is out of proportion. If they honestly evaluated the things they claim to value, they would buy the $55 Athlon. People have money to burn -$200 is nothing- and don't know where to burn it. They want shiney, flashy things. Because other people get excited about the latest flashy thing, they get excited too. From that, people who lurk here get a very false impression of the true value of computer hardware.

Let's make this semi-realistic. If you make money using your computer, and you can save time with a higher performance computer, you could get your computer for free, or even make money by buying the highest priced computer around. People who read the article know NVIDIA has a bank of computer racks, just a part of their total, containing nineteen million dollar plus computers each with 192 Gigabytes of memory. Elsewhere they have a rack containing 2800 CPUs. They probably spend more on electicity in a day than I have ever spent on my personal computer equipment. But NVIDIA comes out ahead because of their expenditure. Now we move to some corporation that has a large number of computers used by their office workers. They have computers of various ages and update them periodically. They could theoretically save money by buying new computers, even if they saved only a few minutes a day. Surely a 3GHz computer will outperform a 300MHz. How much should they spend on their new computers? One milllion dollars? Ten thousand? Three thousand? One thousand? So they buy the new computers, the employees are thrilled, and the company finds out productivity did not improve a bit, and in fact mysteriously seems to have dropped slightly. The old computers performed their tasks fast enough that they already kept up with the employees. The new OS interface is comfy and adorable, but it takes a few more steps to get where you need to go. If they got Intel CPUs in the new computers, they wasted their money.

Now we go to a home computer user. Unlike a typical home computer user, he likes to play FPS games, although is not a fanatic either, and he needs a high performance computer. All his games play fine, but his mobo is old. UT3 is coming out. He buys a $55 Athlon (+$15 HS), an Epox 8K3a to OC with, and his games still play fine, plus he can run benchmarks proving how wonderful the new computer is.

If we go to a typical home computer user, they can be happy with the computer that the Athlon/Epox combo replaced.

A glitch in the appeal of flashy items has put the chip industry into over-supply mode. America is not so socialist that we can't work out the misallocation of resources that the Federal Reserve induced, so things will straighten out and extravagance will rebound. I wouldn't count the day of the high-priced computer chip out. Someday Intel could again be selling consumer CPUs for over $1000, and AMD will follow behind them.

Its not so much that Intel afficianados (or somewhat more accurately, "high speed" afficianados) have their sense of proportion out of proportion, so much their sense of proportion is different than yours. You are correct in that very, very few people actually need a 2.5 or 2.8GHz CPU (or "2500 or 2800 CPU" for AMD chips), and that even a 1.4Ghz Athlon is more than most people actually need, though I'd pick EPoX 8K5A[2|3]/+ rather than the 8K3A, though the 8K3A is certainly a fine board. But you're still discounting the enthusiast element. A Ford Taurus (or Toyota Camry, if you prefer cars that don't break down every 3 minutes) is all the car most people need. Very, very people actually need a Mercedes or a Porsche (please, no car debates ), but for car enthusiasts the pleasure they get from owning and driving one is worth the extra money spent. Similarly, for computer enthusiasts, the pleasure they get from owning and running an extremely fast computer that provides more power than they actually need is worth the extra ~$70 or so dollars they spend on them. Plus, an ~ 2.5GHz CPU (or ~"2500" for AMDs) could put off the "need" to upgrade for about 6 months to a year longer than a 1.4GHz CPU will.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,965
279
126
Originally posted by: Mikewarrior2
except that, if you really want to support AMD, do not buy the $53 XP1600 AGOIA chips. You're further hurting AMD's already ultra-low ASP(average selling price). THat number is currently in the 60-70$ range. In order to really help amd, you should be buying an XP2100+. Or higher. Something to help drive the ASP upward.

Someone has to buy them, why not loyal AMD users?
 

SOSTrooper

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2001
2,552
0
76
Sorry guys! I believe I'm one of the millions of reasons why AMD is doing so bad in sales. I bought a P4 1.6A CPU for myself, and helped 2 of my friends on their 2GHz P4 as well! :| My co-worker also got a P4 2GHz too. And the computer store I work for, all models are Intel P4 line. I deeply apologize.
 

Mikewarrior2

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 1999
7,132
0
0
Originally posted by: MadRat
Originally posted by: Mikewarrior2
except that, if you really want to support AMD, do not buy the $53 XP1600 AGOIA chips. You're further hurting AMD's already ultra-low ASP(average selling price). THat number is currently in the 60-70$ range. In order to really help amd, you should be buying an XP2100+. Or higher. Something to help drive the ASP upward.

Someone has to buy them, why not loyal AMD users?

Cause they should buy $120+ chips if they really want to help AMD. i'm not against hte bargain, but "help support AMD please"... followed by massive $53 chip buying hurts AMD. Help support AMD please followed by "buy the xp2100+ for $130) is a much more "helping AMD" than the $53 chip.

 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,965
279
126
They have to clear out the old stock, why not to a loyal customer base?
 

imgod2u

Senior member
Sep 16, 2000
993
0
0
Because if the stock clears out, stock that's already been paid for by the vendor and bought from AMD, the it will put higher demand on that model, i.e. the one that costs $53 and less demand on the higher end models. The vendor will then buy a lot more $53 chips from AMD and not as many $130 chips and AMD will loose money. This isn't advanced economics ppl.
 

SuperSix

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,872
2
0
Originally posted by: Mikewarrior2
except that, if you really want to support AMD, do not buy the $53 XP1600 AGOIA chips. You're further hurting AMD's already ultra-low ASP(average selling price). THat number is currently in the 60-70$ range. In order to really help amd, you should be buying an XP2100+. Or higher. Something to help drive the ASP upward.

Of course, this would be under the belief that the very small portion of the market known as enthusiasts can really effect ASP. (i doubt we'd make a dent one way or the other).

So its a nice sentiment, but unrealistic as to making any dent one way or another. But if anything, but hte more expensive chip if you want to help AMD.
Mike

Very true. AMD dug their own hole, dropping their ASP's to new lows, while not focusing on future technology/speeds.

 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,965
279
126
I think too much emphasis is put on the $52 price of XP1600+. The core is no bigger than the Duron core and they have plentiful stocks. If anything the Duron is the Achilles heel of AMD, not the cheap XP1600+. AMD simply is keeping the Duron line rolling so as to not close down the fabrication plant (in Austin, TX) that makes it before they are scheduled to close it down. Selling more of your product increases market exposure, which at this point in time is more effective advertising than the media avenues can ever hope to pan out for them.
 

T2T III

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,899
1
0
I'd like to believe that I'm doing my part. I have an XP 1500+ (oc to 1600+) which I purchased the retail version right when it was released for $135.00. I'd look at the XP 2400+ once the XP 2800+ hits the streets and drops the prices on the 2400+.
 

Tanked

Senior member
Jun 1, 2001
205
0
0
Quote by GrimReaperPOH
I have been buying computers since the 286 days. In that time I have owned several computers, 2 of these which were AMD. I have never had a problem with Intel chips, I go for quality more than price. I agree Intel has the "household name" in chips. But never again will I buy an AMD cpu. My brother has one now, and is currently looking for an Intel based computer. At one time we both had HP computers, he had a 500mhz and I had a 433mhz Celeron. The Celeron would run circles around his computer. AMD needs to get on the bandwagon and get their PR people going and put a little more quality in their product. As I read the forums, not only here but elsewhere, one particular topic seems to always come up. Notice that the people who have trouble with their computers, 90% of the time look at what CPU they are using, this tells it all. I will probably get flamed for this response, so be it. But when the 3.0ghz P4's roll out in December, I will probably be the first in line to purchase one.

Couple of things.

Were the HP computers equal besides the processors? Also, at that time, AMD had very poor motherboard support, which is not really their fault. Celerons were generally better then K6-2's, but that's old news, and things have completely changed since then.

Notice that the people who have trouble with their computers, 90% of the time look at what CPU they are using, this tells it all.

I've also noticed that all of the problems stem from motherboard issues, not from the actual processor. Although AMD should get better motherboard support and ditch VIA, it's not a problem with AMD's product quality. A pure AMD-based computer (AMD processor, northbridge, and southbridge) has just as much quality as an Intel based computer.
 

Curley

Senior member
Oct 30, 1999
368
3
76
AMD decided to always price thier chips 10% or 20% lower than an Intel comparable processor??? They should do away with that policy and reduce it by %5. They have already proved themselves as being a great performance chip.

I remember when the Slot A first came out and no one would support the processor with motherboard chipsets. I believe Anand stated that if AMD really wanted to be taken seriously, they should support their own processors with AMD made motherboards just as Intel has done. Intel has made boards to compliment thier processors and used thier motherboard chipsets to correct any dificiencies that the processor may be experiencing. But AMD left it up to VIA, ALI, SIS, etc.. to work out any bugs with the processor/motherboard relationship.

I have both, AMD and Intel machines, I was a big fan of AMD Slot A/IRONGATE combination. It was stable and fast. But the AMD processor has waxed and waned as far as stability and speed with chips breaking and overheating problems that caused certain OEM companies to discontinue mass production of AMD computers.

As enthusiats, we find these bugs minor or non-issues, but to a large OEM, it would mean hundreds of tech calls and fixes.

I just finished building an XP2000 with a Radeon 9700PRO with Cas2 XMS memory, soltek board, and "vortex II" sound card. I love this machine. It replaced my XP1600.

I buy as many AMD processors as I do Intel Processors. AMD needs to rethink thier prices and motherboard support.

I think the company will survive.

 

silentScope

Member
Apr 2, 2002
129
0
0
I have always supported AMD and i respect the fact that they have put up a good fight against Intel. I dont like Intel at all and I hope things work out ok for AMD. I just hate waiting for the clawhammer ;\ Pllleeeease COME OUT! or i'll be forced to buy an INtel 3 ghz this year
 

SuperSix

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,872
2
0
What does AMD need to do to be a serious contender to Intel?

Manufacturer and push their own chipset(s). Intel has always done this, and I doubt you will find a BIG PC manufacturer that uses anything but Intel chipets with Intel CPUs. What are some of the most stable AMD CPU chipsets ever made? The AMD-manufactured ones.

Exert some control over motherboard manufacturers, involve themselves in the design, testing. Because no mater how good the CPU is, a large majority of users will always credit stability issues on the CPU, not the motherboard.

GET A DAMN HEAT SPREADER!!!

Raise their ASP, slowly. They can still whip Intel on price and speed, and not give their CPUs away like they are doing now.

Basically, AMD cannot survive on the enthusiast market alone. They need to win over and KEEP a few large OEMs in their pocket.

The big question though.. is it simply too late?

 
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