Homemade network cables? 1Gbps possible?

noreaga0221

Junior Member
Feb 7, 2007
24
0
0
I searched but really couldn't find anything using 'homemade' term.

I made my own cat5e cables. Three 1 Gbps adapters with a Gig switch yet all connect at 100Mbps. But using a factory cable nets 1Gbps. I don't see the difference. And if I manually set my adapter on this comp to 1Gbps the switch flips out and drops my connection and the window pops up saying a network cable is unplugged.

BTW both cables are cat5e.


 

InlineFive

Diamond Member
Sep 20, 2003
9,599
2
0
The factory cable works because it is built to spec and tested accordingly. You have no way of verifying the quality of your cable.
 

noreaga0221

Junior Member
Feb 7, 2007
24
0
0
Put the wires in the right order, push into plug firmly, cramp. I'm missing where I could have done something to degrade it.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: InlineFive
The factory cable works because it is built to spec and tested accordingly. You have no way of verifying the quality of your cable.

QFT.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: noreaga0221
Put the wires in the right order, push into plug firmly, cramp. I'm missing where I could have done something to degrade it.

About a dozen things could be wrong with your cable. Don't make patch cables.
 

noreaga0221

Junior Member
Feb 7, 2007
24
0
0



Damn.

Now another question, are there any problems that you can use to transfer files between computers over a home network. I'm messing with smartFtp but not sure what I have to do to get it to connect.
 

xSauronx

Lifer
Jul 14, 2000
19,582
4
81
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: noreaga0221
Put the wires in the right order, push into plug firmly, cramp. I'm missing where I could have done something to degrade it.

About a dozen things could be wrong with your cable. Don't make patch cables.

link for the interested? i keep seeing people here recommend factory cables only and would like to have a bit to read about it. i work for a small ISP that provides wireless internet access to some rural areas in kansas and theyve got us making cables from the SMs into the customer homes, so Im a bit interested in knowing more about this.

if it gets too technical ill just read fark or something but if you have something handy i could read, id appreciate it
 

cmetz

Platinum Member
Nov 13, 2001
2,296
0
0
noreaga0221, many of the cheaper crimp connectors don't give good NEXT quality and won't really work for gigabit. Many of the cheaper crimpers suck and won't make good connections for gigabit. Also, there are some common termination mistakes you can make, like not maintaining the twist as close to the connection as absolutely possible, or getting the pairs too uneven.

In general, you really just shouldn't make your own cables anymore. Machine made cables are high quality and cheap. I've seen too many problems - especially subtle problems - caused by hand made cables. It's just not worth it. Cables are cheap, man-time is not, down-time is not.

>i work for a small ISP that provides wireless internet access to some rural areas in kansas and theyve got us making cables from the SMs into the customer homes

How long are these cables? If they're any rational standard length, this is a bad idea - just go buy some machine made cables. If they're a very long custom run, then it might be appropriate. In that case, since you're professionals - RIGHT? - you'll be using a cat5e cable scanning tool to certify that cabling run to be within spec. Because the "gee, it seems to be working" test is not good enough.
 

xSauronx

Lifer
Jul 14, 2000
19,582
4
81
Originally posted by: cmetz
noreaga0221, many of the cheaper crimp connectors don't give good NEXT quality and won't really work for gigabit. Many of the cheaper crimpers suck and won't make good connections for gigabit. Also, there are some common termination mistakes you can make, like not maintaining the twist as close to the connection as absolutely possible, or getting the pairs too uneven.

In general, you really just shouldn't make your own cables anymore. Machine made cables are high quality and cheap. I've seen too many problems - especially subtle problems - caused by hand made cables. It's just not worth it. Cables are cheap, man-time is not, down-time is not.

>i work for a small ISP that provides wireless internet access to some rural areas in kansas and theyve got us making cables from the SMs into the customer homes

How long are these cables? If they're any rational standard length, this is a bad idea - just go buy some machine made cables. If they're a very long custom run, then it might be appropriate.

cant recall ever doing one fewer than 40 feet, and weve done a couple that might be pushing 150 or so.

come to think of it, i did one a few weeks ago that had to be about 200' (went from a server rack inside,to the outside of a building, onto the roof, across the roof, and 100' up a tower to an AP) which is probably the longest ive ever made.

weve never had problems with the cables, unless one gets nicked or gnawed-on by something, but reliability has never been an issue. as for them being good enough to push 1Gbps....i have no idea, we dont use anywhere *near* that kind of bandwidth on the cables I make, and never will. I would imagine they wouldnt handle it, if they can be so finicky.

thing is, with a factory cable, wed have to put a significantly larger hole in a customer home. as it is, a 1/4" hole is all we need since i cap the ends after we run the wire. some customers want the connection where the pc is, and nowhere else, or running it somewhere discreet enough to hide the larger hole would be impractical considering where we have to connect to their pc.

like i said though, if someone has some links, id be interested in reading on proper cable preparation and termination, etc just for the hell of knowing about it.

In that case, since you're professionals - RIGHT? - you'll be using a cat5e cable scanning tool to certify that cabling run to be within spec. Because the "gee, it seems to be working" test is not good enough.

I wish. Know how I got into this? I worked for a satellite guy. He was doing the installs for the WISP, took a job with their sister company as Sales Manager for their VOIP service, and needed someone to go with his son to do the installs. Id been doing the satellite stuff with him, and convinced him I could better do the job than the "computer guy" he had, who can, to his only credit, handle the basic networking/troubleshooting required to do the installations.

There are a number of things they do that arent professional. some theyre working on fixing, others they arent. I have *no* testing tools. Thats on the list of a number of concerns Ive had with the company. But, right now, it pays the bills. Ive suggested things a number of times, and get ignored.

They dont stock up on our SMs (we have to regularly reschedule customers due to lack of equipment, either because someone didnt order enough, or whoever were getting this stuff from doesnt *have* enough), theyve got 2 LOS APs of differing frequencies on a couple of towers, without any 900mhz system that can handle some of the foliage I run into. Im baffled by this, as I havent even been doing this that long and that makes *no* sense to me.

They dont stock up on routers, wireless adapters, NICs, etc, that they should have, they are, in some respects, massively disorganized (and since i dont get paid extra for suggestions, and the few I give out are ignored, I stopped bothering)

Somehow it all works. Customers are happy, the service is reliable, and theres no shortage of orders for new installs.

for customers, it works. behind the scenes, its a mess. it pays my bills, so its what im doing right now.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: xSauronx
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: noreaga0221
Put the wires in the right order, push into plug firmly, cramp. I'm missing where I could have done something to degrade it.

About a dozen things could be wrong with your cable. Don't make patch cables.

link for the interested? i keep seeing people here recommend factory cables only and would like to have a bit to read about it. i work for a small ISP that provides wireless internet access to some rural areas in kansas and theyve got us making cables from the SMs into the customer homes, so Im a bit interested in knowing more about this.

if it gets too technical ill just read fark or something but if you have something handy i could read, id appreciate it

You can't link experience. If you don't have the tools to certify your link/channel cabling to category specifications then you have category nothing.

Keep in mind that 9/10 network problems are cabling problems.
 

xSauronx

Lifer
Jul 14, 2000
19,582
4
81
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: xSauronx
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: noreaga0221
Put the wires in the right order, push into plug firmly, cramp. I'm missing where I could have done something to degrade it.

About a dozen things could be wrong with your cable. Don't make patch cables.

link for the interested? i keep seeing people here recommend factory cables only and would like to have a bit to read about it. i work for a small ISP that provides wireless internet access to some rural areas in kansas and theyve got us making cables from the SMs into the customer homes, so Im a bit interested in knowing more about this.

if it gets too technical ill just read fark or something but if you have something handy i could read, id appreciate it

You can't link experience. If you don't have the tools to certify your link/channel cabling to category specifications then you have category nothing.

Keep in mind that 9/10 network problems are cabling problems.

i will keep that in mind
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
I'm the first to say buy factory cables for a couple of reasons:

1. Cost...it may SEEM expensive, until you realize that your 70K a year network guy is sitting there making cables...those are spendy cables. I trust VERY few people to make my cables.

2. Reliablity...just isn't there.


That said, we make most of our own cables, but they are made buy guys who know what they are doing, we have twists right to the jack, jacket is crimpted in tight, and we TEST ALL OUR CABLES FOR 5E SPEC.


I also moonlight for a small wireless ISP, and we do them there as well, but again, it's a practice and test game.
 

xSauronx

Lifer
Jul 14, 2000
19,582
4
81
well, since were at it, what *does* it take to test cables to spec?

if nothing else, i can suggest it, and theyll ignore it, and down the road when they have a problem this could prevent, i can point it out and heckle....

/or something
//wishes he was a 70k/yr network guy
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,631
5,740
146
Originally posted by: xSauronx
well, since were at it, what *does* it take to test cables to spec?

if nothing else, i can suggest it, and theyll ignore it, and down the road when they have a problem this could prevent, i can point it out and heckle....

/or something
//wishes he was a 70k/yr network guy

It takes a fairly expensive test unit to do it. Here is the deal though. I do understand your desire and practice to run UTP through small holes and crimp.
Unfortunately, solid wire is what you need for longer runs and it is not really good for any sort of flexible termination. It is meant for permanent cable plant.
I would suggest that you make the runs in solid wire and terminate in keystone jacks in surface mount boxes. Those are much easier to "get right" the first time, and that was the intent of the wire spec for fixed long runs. Then use premade patch cables to finish the job.
I'd not hesitate to do that and only run a cheapie wiremap on the job.
 

RebateMonger

Elite Member
Dec 24, 2005
11,586
0
0
There's almost no reasons to crimp a network cable.

If it's short (14 feet or so), then buy commerical flexible cables. You can find them REALLY cheap if you look.

If it's long, then use solid wire cable and put a surface-mount keystone jack on each end. They are pretty cheap and MUCH more reliable than a hand-crimped connection.

Once you've spend hours troubleshooting some eratic network error, and discovered the cause was somebody's home-made cable, you won't crimp connectors again, except in an emergency.
 

xSauronx

Lifer
Jul 14, 2000
19,582
4
81
So the best thing to do would be to switch to solid-wire cable for the main run, add a gang box/faceplate/keystone jack into the customers wall, and then use factory cables between the jack and the customer?

I have no argument, and it would *look* better as well, thats for sure. I never liked the idea of just putting a small hole in a wall with a cable dangling out of it. And, personally, I like doing a job _right_ which is why I was asking about all of this.

Im just not sure how I could get them to change the process. If they dont listen to me on things that would seem common-sense already, I cant imagine theyd go for some extra time and expense on installations that already cost them $350-$550 per job when we only get $250 from the customer, especially if the case is that we havent had any problems with it what we've been doing.

Makes me wonder how our competitors handle it (Ive been to a couple of jobs where the customer switched from one WISP to the one I work for, and they did it just like I have) and if any of them doing it like you guys are saying we should.

Even if we did that, though, We still have to crimp the end that plugs into the SM, so would it even be worth changing how we do the other end? And what keystone jacks would you reccomend? Ive seen toolless ones, and while I do have some (weve had a couple of customers who have run their own cat 5 cables and wanted us to terminate it and their coax all into one wall plate) they require a punch-down tool.

thanks for the input so far, too, everyone

 

noreaga0221

Junior Member
Feb 7, 2007
24
0
0
Well I now realize how cheap patch cables actually are. I was going by the prices I see in stores but online prices blow them away.

AT showed me the light.
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
the problem with solid stranded and terminating into keystone jacks is that most WISP's use some sort of weatherproof enclosure that offers only a single rj45 jack (keystone jack) and then runs POE and network up through that. So now you have to find a good place that won't get too wet to mount your other jack, and then run a premade cable up to it. Getting any connection wet is not an option, as you are talking about radios that are between $60 and $300, and potential to cause issues with customer routers and computers.


With a wireless WISP, I would say you can't use premade cables. This is one of the few times you cannot do this.

Putting a keystone jack in a nice little box covering the hole in the wall is a good idea though, and would look nice. I think I'll talk to the guys about switching to something like that for future installs.


Look for a decent Fluke to test the runs, those are what we have used.
 

Nocturnal

Lifer
Jan 8, 2002
18,927
0
76
I used to think wtf are these guys talking about not making your own patch cables but they're right. Just go with a vendor online, most times you can get a 10' cable for like $2.00. It isn't worth making your own, the headaches you have to endure and troubleshooting that takes away your time from doing actual work. Just buy the damn things, they're so damn cheap!
 

JackMDS

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 25, 1999
29,530
416
126
Any one who has at home a centrifuge and Spin milk to make Butter should crimp his own CAT5e/6 Cables.

If you need in wall long Runs, use Keystone, other wise Crimping is Bad for you health.:thumbsdown:

P.S. I crimped my first cable 45 years ago and stop crimping 20 years ago, I am doing much better since then.:thumbsup:
 

cmetz

Platinum Member
Nov 13, 2001
2,296
0
0
xSauronx, Fluke makes hand-held testers that are reasonably rugged and easy to use. The cheap one is about $1k and the better one is about $2k. This would be a good use of money. It will save you call-backs.
 

xSauronx

Lifer
Jul 14, 2000
19,582
4
81
Originally posted by: JackMDS
Any one who has at home a centrifuge and Spin milk to make Butter should crimp his own CAT5e/6 Cables.

If you need in wall long Runs, use Keystone, other wise Crimping is Bad for you health.:thumbsdown:

ive only done a couple of in-wall long runs, and we did use keystones for those. still made patch cables from those to pcs/routers though :/

Originally posted by: cmetz
xSauronx, Fluke makes hand-held testers that are reasonably rugged and easy to use. The cheap one is about $1k and the better one is about $2k. This would be a good use of money. It will save you call-backs.

Yipes. You guys have to understand, while Im their main installer....Im just that. Its a small company, and the 2 guys in charge get overloaded with stuff to do to keep things running semi-smoothly.

My main task right now is to convince them to add some more 900mhz APs where we only have 2.4/5.2/5.7 systems in place. Those are pricey as it is, but at least they can use those to make money.

A thousand-dollar line-tester probably wont be seen the same way....but it did make me think of this:

The WISP has a sister company that offers VOIP services. They tell me the VOIP only uses 24k of bandwidth, but some customers complain about bad call quality. Intermittent dead spots in a conversation, strange ringing, and occasionally lost calls. All of these customers with problems have our wireless internet service.

If bad cabling, and not bandwidth as they suspect (they say landline broadband customers have 0 problems) is possibly the problem, i *might* be able to talk them into changing a few things a bit easier, as well as picking up a line tester.

Theyre getting ready to bump the base package for all customers from 256k/256k to 768/256 in part to keep up with the competition, and in part with hopes that it will solve some of the strange VOIP problems they are seeing.

From what youre saying, would I be right in assuming that the cabling can be "good enough" to handle the connection to the SM, but not good enough to deliver a quality signal when it comes to the VOIP service, even if it does take the minor amount of bandwidth they are claiming? Because that would probably be the *only* way I could get such an expensive piece of equipment without too much hassle.

 

JackMDS

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 25, 1999
29,530
416
126
xSauronx if you are a professional installer it is an other issue.

People can learn and practice how to crimp well. It takes time and a lot of crimping but wheb you get it it works well.

The main problem is the one or two "shot" of guys that do it on their own because they think that they can save few $$$, in most case it ends up with problems.

It is also a matter of the type of installation and the margin of error that can be risked. In know people that do sensitive installation,they test with thier own Fluke even the commercially made patches that they buy.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
xSauronx,

It is really starting to look like you guys have a physical layer problem (I'm confused on what services and over what layer1 media you provide?). And it's most likely by using twisted pair cabling that isn't tested. As pointed out a few grand on a cable certifier will easily pay for itself inside of a month.

That's the whole reasoning behind the category specifications. If you follow them and test accordingly you know your physical layer is good. If you don't then all kinds of "very weird stuff" happens.

Don't muck with the physical layer.

You know why your landline customer's don't have problems? It's because telcos are religous about being within specifications, as well they should.

I'll repeat again - bandwidth has nothing to do with voice quality. Never has and never will. Dropped frames due to underlying cabling are death to Voice.
 
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