Homosexuality

[bluemax]

There is always a cost for one's actions. If you think that homosexuality is somehow unique to 20th-century American culture, I have some old, old stories to tell you.

Pray tell, what is the cost, in your opinion?

Homosexuality has been around a long, long time. You don't need to convince me of THAT!

The cost of this "me! me! me! me!" mentality is that others will suffer. Yeah, it does sound simplistic doesn't it.
So simple it's overlooked and/or dismissed. Man's very nature is selfish and nothing good comes of it - not even to yourself. One conquest invariably leads to another, learning nothing from the unsatisfaction of the previous "gain".

But I suppose I'm not supposed to step on anyone's toes, right?
Let's all live in the peaceful, happy bubble where everyone pretends everything is okay and there's no such thing as "wrong".

 

[Moonbeam]

bluemax: I'll say this... one of the things that is contributing to the downward spiral of morality, is the notion of getting an idea in their heads (from TV, popular opinion, parenting, whatever...) and then closing their eyes and ears and blindly carry forth with that idea without any further thought.
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Or getting one from the pulpet.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: bluemax

There is always a cost for one's actions. If you think that homosexuality is somehow unique to 20th-century American culture, I have some old, old stories to tell you.

Pray tell, what is the cost, in your opinion?

Homosexuality has been around a long, long time. You don't need to convince me of THAT!

The cost of this "me! me! me! me!" mentality is that others will suffer. Yeah, it does sound simplistic doesn't it.
So simple it's overlooked and/or dismissed. Man's very nature is selfish and nothing good comes of it - not even to yourself. One conquest invariably leads to another, learning nothing from the unsatisfaction of the previous "gain".

But I suppose I'm not supposed to step on anyone's toes, right?
Let's all live in the peaceful, happy bubble where everyone pretends everything is okay and there's no such thing as "wrong".

Let's all live in the happy, peaceful bubble where we judge another's lifestyle by our standards. Could it be that two men living together in a monogamous relationship may be just as stable or more stable than the average heterosexual couple in American society today?

 

[bluemax]

Oh, my, someone else said something similar earlier in this thread - you're giving me quite a good laugh tonight. Are you honestly naive enough to think that contemporary Christian "morality" is either a) altruistic, b) constant, or c) based in historical fact?

Sounds like the only one here who's saying "I still believe what I believe and nothing you can say will change it" is you.

Well, the words have already been spoken. Short of editing them away, they're out there. Soooooo, who's the one in the corner mocking all people who believe in a God you've never seen.

I've actually tried to make this a decent discussion.... the flame fest has NOT come from me.

 

[Moonbeam]

There isn't anything wrong with anybody except for the feeling there is. There is only God, right, so evil is an illusion.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: bluemax

Oh, my, someone else said something similar earlier in this thread - you're giving me quite a good laugh tonight. Are you honestly naive enough to think that contemporary Christian "morality" is either a) altruistic, b) constant, or c) based in historical fact?

Sounds like the only one here who's saying "I still believe what I believe and nothing you can say will change it" is you.

Well, the words have already been spoken. Short of editing them away, they're out there. Soooooo, who's the one in the corner mocking all people who believe in a God you've never seen.

I've actually tried to make this a decent discussion.... the flame fest has NOT come from me.

I'm proud of you. Flame fests, while entertaining, are never productive or civil; they are taxing, especially for those whose primary method of self-expression is writing.

I have seen your God, been devoted to him... and since given Him up. The Christian God you are referring to is one I want no part of.

 

[bluemax]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
bluemax: I'll say this... one of the things that is contributing to the downward spiral of morality, is the notion of getting an idea in their heads (from TV, popular opinion, parenting, whatever...) and then closing their eyes and ears and blindly carry forth with that idea without any further thought.
-----------------
Or getting one from the pulpet.

More true than you'd think I'd agree to. Do you have any idea what some of these "Churches" teach??? With some of the wackiness that goes on, I'm not surprised Christianity gets a bad name. That, and the fact that the instant someone who has professed themselves "Christian" (whether they ARE or not...) fails in some way, the atheists and many "Christians" attack with fervor.
"That's not the way a Christian should act!"
"If that's what religion is, forget it!"
[insert any quote found in ATOT religious threads]

The Crusades are a supreme example. People led by a charismatic man who tells them to "follow me! Let's kill a bunch of people that don't act like we do and force them to be like us or die!" (Wow... sounds like Bush!) Throughout the dark ages, the Jesuit order was guilty of some of the most heinous tortures "in the name of God" in order to convert people to a particular order.

Heck, one particular order even felt it was within their power and right to change a fewof God's laws because the people they wanted to join the church and pay tithes to would prefer it. Sun-worshippers liked a certain day better, and their planetary gods simply got renamed to Christian saints. Peter stands in a cathedral that was once "Mars". (I'm pretty sure it was Mars... or Mercury.)

Does that negate the idea that God exists? That there might be a certain behaviour pattern(s) that is not only recommended for humans, but also exemplified for us?


I make no qualms about saying I believe, but it's not in ignorance. I've studied for myself, the Bible, history, archaeology and more. What's more, I've been at the receiving end of what most ATOTers would call "remarkable coincidences" far too many times to doubt.
Am I perfect? Far from it. Neither were many of the men in the Bible, from kings to disciples to martyrs. Even Moses screwed up.

When it comes to any and all matters, IGNORANCE IS BAD! It's as simple as that.

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't know, Zac, God comes in pretty handy when you are a bigot and need something to hide behind.

 

[bluemax]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't know, Zac, God comes in pretty handy when you are a bigot and need something to hide behind.

Anyone who's being a bigot in the name of God is no Christian. Scary that some (many) may think they are.....
Of course, people do fail.... someone saying something in a way you don't like doesn't make them a bigot either.

Of course, what can be said of the athiest who proclaims loudly that Christians are all bigots and/or stupid? It's cool to come down on Christians these days... the one thing safe to hate all the world over.
You're not a bigot if you hate Christians... just "smart" or "better than...." or....

 

[Moonbeam]

Well Blue, I don't have a problem with God, only with the assumption that homosexuality is evil. I think people are born that way, can't help it and can no more change than I could love a guy. If you can become a homoxexual than I'm ready to listen to you, but if you can't I think your judgment is just bigotry and id you base it on the Bible, than religious bigotry. I just can't accept that some old book written by men regardless of what you think, is authoritative on homosexuality. Those old dudes were mor ignorant than we are today. They didn't even know about genetics. They were less fit to reach a conclusion that you or I, not more so. That's my opinion and I hold it and fight for it because what religion and homophobes do is make a class of people experience tremendous condemnation for something they can't help. I can't thing of anything much more evil than that. To hurt people because of a confiction in God is real sad. Sorry.

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't got a problem with real Christians either, but I don't define homophobic ones as real ones. Sorry

 

[bluemax]

Let me add a personal touch....

My wife and I lived in an apartment complex right across the street from a new gay bar. So homosexuality was rampant in our building...

Down the hall from us were two men around the age of 25. Gay, but not flaunting it. Nicest guys you'd ever meet. We were pretty good friends with them and they would come into our apartment and take care of our cats while we were away on several occasions.

Did I get into "Bible-thumping" with them? No.
Did I get into Gay-bashing against them? No.
Did I support their lifestyle? No.

You see the difference at all? People screw up, that's a fact. People still deserve to be treated with what was once known as "human decency". It's a term that's fading fast. Jesus himself associated with people in the church called, "scum". Tax collectors, prostitutes, "freaks" and all the people hate to some degree still today. Some people he taught, others he simply healed, others he simply spent a little time with. Some people listened, some people weren't willing to change their lifestyles in any way and chose not to.

Sound familiar at all?

 

[Moonbeam]

What I object to is that you think they need a lifestyle change. You judge; actually you prejudge. You object to a sexual orientation that is clearly beyond a person's control and put on the the useless and impossible burdon of implying they should change. If you can't fall in love with a guy, you have no right to judge because you cannot prove the case that people have choice.

 

[bluemax]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What I object to is that you think they need a lifestyle change. You judge; actually you prejudge. You object to a sexual orientation that is clearly beyond a person's control and put on the the useless and impossible burdon of implying they should change. If you can't fall in love with a guy, you have no right to judge because you cannot prove the case that people have choice.

You're of the impression the ONLY way a person becomes gay is that they were BORN that way, had no choice, "Ain't my fault! Don't look at me!" I'm not even going to go into how or why someone becomes gay - I'm led to believe it's a learned trait like just about all our others are. A chain of events that culminates into an event, but ultimately it happens one way or another.

I'm sorry, here I cannot agree with you. When someone is wrong, they are wrong. Plain and simple. Black and white. (Most people will start their flame right here and forget to read anything that follows...)
Would you not agree that killing is wrong? "Not if..." comes the reply... "not if the person deserves it! [rapist/murderer/terrorist/etc]"

Face the fact that there ARE absolutes, and that we all screw up from time to time. One person screws up and it leads to a death by motor vehicle. Widow(er) then screws up and murders driver, and on and on.... Man screws up and rapes woman, policeman screws up and murders rapist. Man screws up and makes the lifestyle choice to become a rotten, stinking sack of evil himanity.

What you're trying to do is eliminate the absolutes so you won't have to admit to screwing up and falling away from those absolutes. Right?

I mean, if there's no sexual guidelines, I can happily boink whatever I can get my hands on!
If there's no moral guidelines, I can kill inconvenient unborn babies and people who have really hurt my feelings by raping or breaking into my home. For that matter, it's okay to break in and rape too.

If there's no absolutes, there's no such thing as "right" or "wrong". The popular belief is "what's right for you may not be right for me!"



What we SHOULD do is accept that, but it won't happen because of our basic human nature to be self-serving, arrogant little brats.

"*I* can't accept any Bible that says *I* might be wrong! I LIKE being this way! I DON'T like being told to change! I don't CARE who I might be hurting with my actions... better yet, I'm not hurting anyone! See! If I ignore it, it goes away!"

Who likes being told they're wrong? I hate it, personally - as I'm already aware you do. So do you walk away hating the person who told you you were wrong, or do you accept you WERE wrong and make an effort to change, though you may fail many times in attempting to do so?

 

[Moonbeam]

I understand your dilema and your pain very well, blue. You have of course completely misdiagnoced who I am. I too am an absolutist and fully aware of why people would like to avoid the rigors imposed. I simply am a better informed absolutist than you are. You get your absolutes from a book written by people who were bigots and inserted their bigotry into their work. You can test this for yourself. I already explained how. I want you to go out and do a little sin so you can see. I want you to get excited about having sex with a guy for just a bit. You don't have to consumate the act. Hate the sin and all that. No I don't want you to sin, I just want you to get in the mood to do so. Fall in love with a guy for me, for just a bit to prove to me that homosexuality is a choice and not something your born feeling. If you are right it shouldn't be that hard.

But if you can't, you should appologize and devote your life to repairing the damage your undisguised hate, "Man screws up and makes the lifestyle choice to become a rotten, stinking sack of evil himanity.", you know you are supposed to love the sinner, yup, you should appologize for the damage your addition to the hate toward gays you have added to the world.

What your attitude reveals to your fellow absolutist is that you carry an envy of those who aren't hog tied, bound and gaged by religious rules that keep you from having the fun with your thingi that other people do. You are sexually and emotionally repressed and angry as a result. You follow the rules out of fear and mind control, punishment and the fear of more of it, instead of because you understant that truth is absolute and fills the soul with love. You are not transformed by love. You don't have faith in your own truth. It makes you mean.

People are born gay. It's not something you or anybody would choose. The only conclusion you, in your faith, should be able to reach is that God made some people gay and you shouldn't hate his work.

Now you see the problem absolutists have. It's very difficult to be absolutely right and find out you are wrong. Most people just change their minds. I had to die. You will too, I guess, if you've got the guts.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I understand your dilema and your pain very well, blue. You have of course completely misdiagnoced who I am. I too am an absolutist and fully aware of why people would like to avoid the rigors imposed. I simply am a better informed absolutist than you are. You get your absolutes from a book written by people who were bigots and inserted their bigotry into their work. You can test this for yourself. I already explained how. I want you to go out and do a little sin so you can see. I want you to get excited about having sex with a guy for just a bit. You don't have to consumate the act. Hate the sin and all that. No I don't want you to sin, I just want you to get in the mood to do so. Fall in love with a guy for me, for just a bit to prove to me that homosexuality is a choice and not something your born feeling. If you are right it shouldn't be that hard.

But if you can't, you should appologize and devote your life to repairing the damage your undisguised hate, "Man screws up and makes the lifestyle choice to become a rotten, stinking sack of evil himanity.", you know you are supposed to love the sinner, yup, you should appologize for the damage your addition to the hate toward gays you have added to the world.

What your attitude reveals to your fellow absolutist is that you carry an envy of those who aren't hog tied, bound and gaged by religious rules that keep you from having the fun with your thingi that other people do. You are sexually and emotionally repressed and angry as a result. You follow the rules out of fear and mind control, punishment and the fear of more of it, instead of because you understant that truth is absolute and fills the soul with love. You are not transformed by love. You don't have faith in your own truth. It makes you mean.

People are born gay. It's not something you or anybody would choose. The only conclusion you, in your faith, should be able to reach is that God made some people gay and you shouldn't hate his work.

Now you see the problem absolutists have. It's very difficult to be absolutely right and find out you are wrong. Most people just change their minds. I had to die. You will too, I guess, if you've got the guts.

Some people like eating liver, others dont. Its still a choice.

 

[kleinesarschloch]

Some people like eating liver, others dont. Its still a choice.

well that settles it then.

 

[Moonbeam]

I used to hate liver, but I saw a chef fix it on TV and it looked so good I went and tried it his way myself. Oh, man, yummy. Anybody who intends to can learn to eat liver. Intention or no, I'm not going to ever be turned on by a man. Maybe you can.

 

[bluemax]

Well, Moonbeam, it seems as if speaking with you is pretty much futile. Whatever I say, you merely twist around to suit your fancy. You get this impression (or at least return it) that I HATE gay people with some kind of passion. You're wrong and you jolly well know it.
I already told about my friends down the hall, what more can be said?

So what are YOUR absolute wrongs? That there ARE none?

 

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
bluemax: I'll say this... one of the things that is contributing to the downward spiral of morality, is the notion of getting an idea in their heads (from TV, popular opinion, parenting, whatever...) and then closing their eyes and ears and blindly carry forth with that idea without any further thought.
-----------------
Or getting one from the pulpet.

So Moonbeam if I here you correctly, you are saying that Christianity (ture Christianity) is not taking away from the immorality of today's world, but in fact contributing to it???

 

[Moonbeam]

I twisted nothing, blue. I quoted your words of derision. You are full of contempt, no? That you don't direct it at specific peole down the hall does not mean you don't harbor the feelings that ooze into your words about their orientation. What you have done is completely sidestepped the fact that you can't choose to be gay, and insist that others have. Focus on that. and don't be silly about there being no such thing as wrong. There absolutly is.

Metalloid, true Christians are not part of the problem, you are.

 

[jhu]

Some people like eating liver, others dont. Its still a choice.

ok, so some people have fragile-x, others don't so it's their choice to be retarded?

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Metalloid15

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
bluemax: I'll say this... one of the things that is contributing to the downward spiral of morality, is the notion of getting an idea in their heads (from TV, popular opinion, parenting, whatever...) and then closing their eyes and ears and blindly carry forth with that idea without any further thought.
-----------------
Or getting one from the pulpet.

So Moonbeam if I here you correctly, you are saying that Christianity (ture Christianity) is not taking away from the immorality of today's world, but in fact contributing to it???

One of the greatest epiphanies one can have. Do you want a cookie?

 

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I twisted nothing, blue. I quoted your words of derision. You are full of contempt, no? That you don't direct it at specific peole down the hall does not mean you don't harbor the feelings that ooze into your words about their orientation. What you have done is completely sidestepped the fact that you can't choose to be gay, and insist that others have. Focus on that. and don't be silly about there being no such thing as wrong. There absolutly is.

Metalloid, true Christians are not part of the problem, you are.

Well, since by your standards I am not a Christian, then please tell me what I am doing wrong (without using the word bigot). Also, what do you consider a Christian? A person that believes that homosexuality is alright even though God says it is not?

 

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: Zakath15

Originally posted by: Metalloid15

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
bluemax: I'll say this... one of the things that is contributing to the downward spiral of morality, is the notion of getting an idea in their heads (from TV, popular opinion, parenting, whatever...) and then closing their eyes and ears and blindly carry forth with that idea without any further thought.
-----------------
Or getting one from the pulpet.

So Moonbeam if I here you correctly, you are saying that Christianity (ture Christianity) is not taking away from the immorality of today's world, but in fact contributing to it???

One of the greatest epiphanies one can have. Do you want a cookie?

I do want a cookie. Double chocolate chip preferably.