How can cops do this?

[Mill]

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: AMCRambler
Meh! He got nailed fair and square. Just because he didn't think the police were going to search his room doesn't make his posession alright. It sucks and I feel for him. The underage drinking laws in this country have gotten too strict imo. Take that stupid law when you buy any kind of alcohol they now ID everyone with you. I tried to buy a six pack when my girlfriend was with me. She was 20 and I'm 23 so they wouldn't sell it to me. My girlfriend doesn't even drink beer. Not sure if that one is state law or federal law, but it's pretty pointless. If you were buying booze to drink with your underage friends, then all you have to do is tell them to wait in the car.
Anyhow seems like they shouldn't have been allowed to search the apartment, but the fact that he had the booze still remains. Shouldn't break the law unless you're prepared to face the consequences, should be the moral of this story.

Agreed which was the point to my post actually. Unfortunately some people failed to see this.

No, I understand it, I just think it is silly and dangerous logic that leads to your conclusion.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Lyfer
I guess the joke blew up in Jeff's face.


But the cops searching without a warrant? Dunno about that.

They can search without a warrant if they have permission or during a search incidental to arrest. They cannot, however, go on a general, exploratory search with or without a warrant.

 

[Yossarian451]

Originally posted by: AMCRambler
Meh! He got nailed fair and square. Just because he didn't think the police were going to search his room doesn't make his posession alright. It sucks and I feel for him. The underage drinking laws in this country have gotten too strict imo. Take that stupid law when you buy any kind of alcohol they now ID everyone with you. I tried to buy a six pack when my girlfriend was with me. She was 20 and I'm 23 so they wouldn't sell it to me. My girlfriend doesn't even drink beer. Not sure if that one is state law or federal law, but it's pretty pointless. If you were buying booze to drink with your underage friends, then all you have to do is tell them to wait in the car.
Anyhow seems like they shouldn't have been allowed to search the apartment, but the fact that he had the booze still remains. Shouldn't break the law unless you're prepared to face the consequences, should be the moral of this story.

Drinking laws arn't federal, they are state, but the federal government uses highway money as an incentive to make the states put it at 21.

Also, the search and seizures was a good read. Specifiaclly the fact that at best they could claim it to be a plain view search in which it would still be overturned (at least should). Since consent was not given, and alcohol had nothing to do with the theft, he has a very good shot at it.

 

[dabuddha]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: AMCRambler
Meh! He got nailed fair and square. Just because he didn't think the police were going to search his room doesn't make his posession alright. It sucks and I feel for him. The underage drinking laws in this country have gotten too strict imo. Take that stupid law when you buy any kind of alcohol they now ID everyone with you. I tried to buy a six pack when my girlfriend was with me. She was 20 and I'm 23 so they wouldn't sell it to me. My girlfriend doesn't even drink beer. Not sure if that one is state law or federal law, but it's pretty pointless. If you were buying booze to drink with your underage friends, then all you have to do is tell them to wait in the car.
Anyhow seems like they shouldn't have been allowed to search the apartment, but the fact that he had the booze still remains. Shouldn't break the law unless you're prepared to face the consequences, should be the moral of this story.

Agreed which was the point to my post actually. Unfortunately some people failed to see this.

No, I understand it, I just think it is silly and dangerous logic that leads to your conclusion.

LOL Millennium you have no clue about what I was trying to say. None at all.

 

[Ness]

Room Entry Policy
Staff members will not enter your room without your permission except when:

responding to what they consider a serious life and/or health threatening emergency
done by police officers under their authority and responsibility for the purpose of investigation
performing requested, preventive, prescheduled and/or emergency maintenance
retrieving items that have been identified as Division of University Housing property
removing an illegal pet
in the absence of residents, there is a disruptive noise such as the alarm of a clock or a stereo playing at a disturbing level
conducting non-emergency inspection/repairs (end of semester and over winter break).
Division staff are required to report Housing Contract violations which they observe in a room. No room will be searched except where staff have reasonable evidence to believe that an immediate search is necessary to resolve a serious life or health threatening situation. Appropriate legal authorities under their authority and responsibility may search resident rooms.

Straight from the wisconson university housing page.


Sorry, but by my understanding Jeff has nothing, because their are no limitation set forth as to what gives the police grounds to search the room, it simply says that they can do so under their own authority.

Alcohol

Only residents and their guests/visitors who are 21 years old or older may possess or consume alcohol. Expect to be asked for age identification whenever you are in possession of alcohol.

Alcohol may only be consumed in resident rooms, not in common areas and not in rooms in a substance-free house.

There is no alcohol allowed in common areas (dens, lounges, stairwells, lobbies, etc.) except when being transported in a closed container to the room of a resident who is 21 years of age or older.

No one may provide alcohol to anyone under 21 years of age.

Common sources of alcohol are not permitted and can result in dismissal from University Housing on a first offense. Common sources of alcohol are all containers (kegs, barrels, mixes in large containers, bowls etc.) where the alcohol is intended to be served to a number of people.

Alcoholic beverages may not be brewed or distilled in residence hall facilities.

Alcoholic beverages may not be consumed on grounds adjacent to the residence halls.

There is no good reason to believe that he didn't know it was there, and you can't argue that it's not illegal because he wasn't consuming it, because it was written for possesion, and he clearly possesed it.

Pranks

Pranks which damage property, violate other policies, or put anyone in danger are prohibited and will be treated seriously. They may result in dismissal from University Housing.

Apparently so.

 

[element]

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy
Something somewhat similar happened in my hall this year....
A guy across the hall took from sod(grass) from another part of campus and put it out infront of someone's door as a joke...and then planned to get lawn chairs and a cooler and put it out there....

but he got caught by the RA and they charged him with theft and a couple other things

honestly is it theft it is moved from one part of campus to another?
its like if i walk into my friend's house pick up his TV and walk to another part of the house set it down and walk out....is that considered theft? i think not......

also at CU dorm rooms are treated no differently than if the person had an appartment in relation to the police and what they can do with searching and what not.....

Was the sod theirs? No. Did they move it from its original location? Yes. Does that fit the definition of stealing? Yes. I'm not saying I've never done anything resembling that, I'm saying, don't do it unless you are willing to face the pending consequences.

So if you go into a store, pick up an item, put it in your shopping cart, and then later decide you didn't want it, and put it back but on the wrong shelf, you stole it? I don't think so.

 

[Ness]

Originally posted by: element®

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy
Something somewhat similar happened in my hall this year....
A guy across the hall took from sod(grass) from another part of campus and put it out infront of someone's door as a joke...and then planned to get lawn chairs and a cooler and put it out there....

but he got caught by the RA and they charged him with theft and a couple other things

honestly is it theft it is moved from one part of campus to another?
its like if i walk into my friend's house pick up his TV and walk to another part of the house set it down and walk out....is that considered theft? i think not......

also at CU dorm rooms are treated no differently than if the person had an appartment in relation to the police and what they can do with searching and what not.....

Was the sod theirs? No. Did they move it from its original location? Yes. Does that fit the definition of stealing? Yes. I'm not saying I've never done anything resembling that, I'm saying, don't do it unless you are willing to face the pending consequences.

So if you go into a store, pick up an item, put it in your shopping cart, and then later decide you didn't want it, and put it back but on the wrong shelf, you stole it? I don't think so.

That analogy is flawed. It would be more like if you wanted an item from one store in a shopping center, then you took it to another store in a shopping center and left it.

Someone else's property was taken without permission and used in a manner that they didn't designate. It doesn't matter that it's the same college campus because 1) the university considers the residence halls and the academic portions of the school seperate, 2) The item was removed the location that the owner had designated and replaced in a position that was not in accordance with the owner's wishes, 3) The location of the item was being hidden from the owner in an entirely different location, 4) none of was happened was permitted by the owner, or even discussed with the owner.

 

[GoingUp]

Originally posted by: ness1469

Room Entry Policy
Staff members will not enter your room without your permission except when:

responding to what they consider a serious life and/or health threatening emergency
done by police officers under their authority and responsibility for the purpose of investigation
performing requested, preventive, prescheduled and/or emergency maintenance
retrieving items that have been identified as Division of University Housing property
removing an illegal pet
in the absence of residents, there is a disruptive noise such as the alarm of a clock or a stereo playing at a disturbing level
conducting non-emergency inspection/repairs (end of semester and over winter break).
Division staff are required to report Housing Contract violations which they observe in a room. No room will be searched except where staff have reasonable evidence to believe that an immediate search is necessary to resolve a serious life or health threatening situation. Appropriate legal authorities under their authority and responsibility may search resident rooms.

Straight from the wisconson university housing page.


Sorry, but by my understanding Jeff has nothing, because their are no limitation set forth as to what gives the police grounds to search the room, it simply says that they can do so under their own authority.

Alcohol

Only residents and their guests/visitors who are 21 years old or older may possess or consume alcohol. Expect to be asked for age identification whenever you are in possession of alcohol.

Alcohol may only be consumed in resident rooms, not in common areas and not in rooms in a substance-free house.

There is no alcohol allowed in common areas (dens, lounges, stairwells, lobbies, etc.) except when being transported in a closed container to the room of a resident who is 21 years of age or older.

No one may provide alcohol to anyone under 21 years of age.

Common sources of alcohol are not permitted and can result in dismissal from University Housing on a first offense. Common sources of alcohol are all containers (kegs, barrels, mixes in large containers, bowls etc.) where the alcohol is intended to be served to a number of people.

Alcoholic beverages may not be brewed or distilled in residence hall facilities.

Alcoholic beverages may not be consumed on grounds adjacent to the residence halls.

There is no good reason to believe that he didn't know it was there, and you can't argue that it's not illegal because he wasn't consuming it, because it was written for possesion, and he clearly possesed it.

Pranks

Pranks which damage property, violate other policies, or put anyone in danger are prohibited and will be treated seriously. They may result in dismissal from University Housing.

Apparently so.

There was no debate on my part about the legality of him possessing the alcohol. He had it and hes underage so it's clearly illegal. The question I was asking was, is it right for the cops to search the room for alcohol and other contraband when it clearly had nothing to do with the arrest.

Luvly why do you always use the term false dichotomy? Is it so that you sound like you know what youre talking about? I love how you always try to use as big of words as possible when small ones will do.

Jeff was out in the hall when the cops questioned him. They were not in his room. He gave them no permission to search his room at which point they arrested him. The tree in question is about a 7 foot tall fake tree. Jeff had told the cops that he put it in the girls room and to the best of my knowledge, it was already recovered before the cops came to his room. Jeff did move the tree with some other people, but when the cops came to his door and asked about the tree, he admitted to moving it. He didnt say if he said anything about his friends moving the tree as well. The tree has since returned to the den undamaged. The desk is your typical college desk, about 6-7 feet wide and 3-4 feet deep with a hutch on top. The alcohol was hidden under the desk behind some items on the floor. According to jeff, the "cops went through everything" even pulled the sheets off his bed and poured out all his vitamins and looked through them. There was also no alcohol involved in the prank. They just moved the tree, they werent drinking at the time.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: AMCRambler
Meh! He got nailed fair and square. Just because he didn't think the police were going to search his room doesn't make his posession alright. It sucks and I feel for him. The underage drinking laws in this country have gotten too strict imo. Take that stupid law when you buy any kind of alcohol they now ID everyone with you. I tried to buy a six pack when my girlfriend was with me. She was 20 and I'm 23 so they wouldn't sell it to me. My girlfriend doesn't even drink beer. Not sure if that one is state law or federal law, but it's pretty pointless. If you were buying booze to drink with your underage friends, then all you have to do is tell them to wait in the car.
Anyhow seems like they shouldn't have been allowed to search the apartment, but the fact that he had the booze still remains. Shouldn't break the law unless you're prepared to face the consequences, should be the moral of this story.

Agreed which was the point to my post actually. Unfortunately some people failed to see this.

No, I understand it, I just think it is silly and dangerous logic that leads to your conclusion.

LOL Millennium you have no clue about what I was trying to say. None at all.

SPIN SPIN SPIN keeping spinning. How about enlightening me on what you were trying to say then since I am so stupid.

 

[lowfatbaconboy]

That analogy is flawed. It would be more like if you wanted an item from one store in a shopping center, then you took it to another store in a shopping center and left it.

not true because alot of the time stores rent the location they are staying at and many stores rent from the person owning the land......but the owner of the land does not own the item you picked up in the store so ....your analogy is flawed ...his is right

and i don't think picking up an item moving it to another part of a store should be considered stealing.....


edit: also

college campus because 1) the university considers the residence halls and the academic portions of the school seperate

how are they considered seperate? they aren't considered seperate property that i know of.....please explain

 

[Ness]

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy

edit: also

college campus because 1) the university considers the residence halls and the academic portions of the school seperate

how are they considered seperate? they aren't considered seperate property that i know of.....please explain

Mostly by the fact that a seperate management company is usually responsible for the dorms, their repair and maintenance, and all issues related to them. This is why the housing office is usually not on campus, rather a part of the on-campus housing. The rules that apply to the residence halls may not apply to the campus itself and vice-versa.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: ness1469

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy

edit: also

college campus because 1) the university considers the residence halls and the academic portions of the school seperate

how are they considered seperate? they aren't considered seperate property that i know of.....please explain

Mostly by the fact that a seperate management company is usually responsible for the dorms, their repair and maintenance, and all issues related to them. This is why the housing office is usually not on campus, rather a part of the on-campus housing. The rules that apply to the residence halls may not apply to the campus itself and vice-versa.

Yet you are wrong, because the Constitution still applies when it comes to unlawful search and seizure.

 

[lowfatbaconboy]

Originally posted by: ness1469

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy

edit: also

college campus because 1) the university considers the residence halls and the academic portions of the school seperate

how are they considered seperate? they aren't considered seperate property that i know of.....please explain

Mostly by the fact that a seperate management company is usually responsible for the dorms, their repair and maintenance, and all issues related to them. This is why the housing office is usually not on campus, rather a part of the on-campus housing. The rules that apply to the residence halls may not apply to the campus itself and vice-versa.

the housing office for CU is about 100-150 yards from my dorm ON CAMPUS......it may be treated slightly differently just b/c fixing a projector and fixing a toilet are two different things.........but they are both on the same property owned by the university......i don't see how the rules being different makes any difference if its on the same property.....
(plus the rules for academic or housing part of a campus have nothing to do with constitutional rights)

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy

Originally posted by: ness1469

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy

edit: also

college campus because 1) the university considers the residence halls and the academic portions of the school seperate

how are they considered seperate? they aren't considered seperate property that i know of.....please explain

Mostly by the fact that a seperate management company is usually responsible for the dorms, their repair and maintenance, and all issues related to them. This is why the housing office is usually not on campus, rather a part of the on-campus housing. The rules that apply to the residence halls may not apply to the campus itself and vice-versa.

the housing office for CU is about 100-150 yards from my dorm ON CAMPUS......it may be treated slightly differently just b/c fixing a projector and fixing a toilet are two different things.........but they are both on the same property owned by the university......i don't see how the rules being different makes any difference if its on the same property.....
(plus the rules for academic or housing part of a campus have nothing to do with constitutional rights)

Umm... yes it does. A rule cannot be unconstitutional when it is a federal and state funded university.

 

[Ness]

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy

Originally posted by: ness1469

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy

edit: also

college campus because 1) the university considers the residence halls and the academic portions of the school seperate

how are they considered seperate? they aren't considered seperate property that i know of.....please explain

Mostly by the fact that a seperate management company is usually responsible for the dorms, their repair and maintenance, and all issues related to them. This is why the housing office is usually not on campus, rather a part of the on-campus housing. The rules that apply to the residence halls may not apply to the campus itself and vice-versa.

the housing office for CU is about 100-150 yards from my dorm ON CAMPUS......it may be treated slightly differently just b/c fixing a projector and fixing a toilet are two different things.........but they are both on the same property owned by the university......i don't see how the rules being different makes any difference if its on the same property.....
(plus the rules for academic or housing part of a campus have nothing to do with constitutional rights)

I'm not saying the college doesn't own it, but it would be like if you took a computer out of one building to use in the next... I don't see how that's not stealing. You took something that doesn't belong to you. End of story.

 

[Ness]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: ness1469

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy

edit: also

college campus because 1) the university considers the residence halls and the academic portions of the school seperate

how are they considered seperate? they aren't considered seperate property that i know of.....please explain

Mostly by the fact that a seperate management company is usually responsible for the dorms, their repair and maintenance, and all issues related to them. This is why the housing office is usually not on campus, rather a part of the on-campus housing. The rules that apply to the residence halls may not apply to the campus itself and vice-versa.

Yet you are wrong, because the Constitution still applies when it comes to unlawful search and seizure.

Not when you sign the housing agreement. When you sign it, you agree to the rule I pointed out, that the police can search your room under their own say-so. Public schools are state-funded but for some reason you don't exactly have complete freedom of speech, now do you?

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: ness1469

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: ness1469

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy

edit: also

college campus because 1) the university considers the residence halls and the academic portions of the school seperate

how are they considered seperate? they aren't considered seperate property that i know of.....please explain

Mostly by the fact that a seperate management company is usually responsible for the dorms, their repair and maintenance, and all issues related to them. This is why the housing office is usually not on campus, rather a part of the on-campus housing. The rules that apply to the residence halls may not apply to the campus itself and vice-versa.

Yet you are wrong, because the Constitution still applies when it comes to unlawful search and seizure.

Not when you sign the housing agreement. When you sign it, you agree to the rule I pointed out, that the police can search your room under their own say-so. Public schools are state-funded but for some reason you don't exactly have complete freedom of speech, now do you?

Yet you are STILL wrong: Appropriate legal authorities under their authority and responsibility may search resident rooms.

Authority: power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge.

Nowhere does it say they don't have to have permission. It simply says they can search under their AUTHORITY, which means they have to follow their normal rules and not usurp the constitution. You seriously need to learn how to read, because nowhere would that statement give them carte blanche to search at will. All it's saying is that students need to be prepared that the police WILL and CAN search their rooms under the normal rules of the 4th amendment. Methinks you should take highschool government over again.

 

[PatboyX]

Originally posted by: Ameesh
fvck the police!

oh and:
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

because asking once is never asking enough.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: ness1469

Originally posted by: Dr Smooth

Pulling a prank is stupid and immature.

So you never had the fun of living in dorms, or you never come out of your dorm room because you thought your computer was better, or perhaps you were the butt of all the pranks?

Or, he had friends who weren't amused by immature acts of malice towards others.

Fun?

 

[lowfatbaconboy]

Umm... yes it does. A rule cannot be unconstitutional when it is a federal and state funded university.

you missed my point....i wasn't saying that there are rules that exist that are unconstitional at universities because that would be assinine

i was attempting to say that no matter what the university rules are they don't override constitutional rights

and whoever said police can search your room at anytime is wrong go READ your student agreement and housing agreement
mill is right on the authority part....

 

[DaviDaVinci]

pranks are fun in college. those cops suck. they took his bedsheets off and went through his vitamin bottles? WTF? they were there for a stolen tree NOT drug abuse. plus it's not like it's OUT in the open. it was hidden. i smell a rotten fish.

 

[goblue420]

thats why we got DPS at u of m, dps are rent a cops that check out the situation and then call the real cops if necessary

 

[tooltime]

ra needs to loosen

 

[alocurto]

Dorms are the property of the university. U have no rights.

 

[alkemyst]

All I have to say is like most things what is and what should be are two different things.

Bottom line is most schools can and will violate many constitutional laws, and many now do it under the guise of public security/anti-terrorism....no one bats an eye about it.

Sure hire a lawyer and sue your school if you will....good luck finding a new college.

I would just extract my own justice against the college in a way that gives me a little tickle inside.

Å