How did the universe begin???

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: IH8 Money
Anyone who says they have the answer to the question that is being asked is trying to convince themself. Asking this question is a "fishing" attempt to convince others of their belief, and I take this as a sign of doubt. Believe what you you want, and don't look for justification in others.
You could call me agnostic, and I am tired of all of the religous "crap." :disgust:
I am happy for my life, and I feel no obligation to figure out why I am.
Instead of putting so much energy(and frustration) into looking into the past, try to make your life as well as others better for the future in a way everyone can enjoy. Believe me, if I had the answer I would let you know. So this subject can use more help than asking a selfish question (that will probabaly not be answered in our lifetime.)

Very Bluntly
IH8 Money

And so once again I ask for your meaning of "better"; whence it came, and why anyone should feel the need to make their life "better" since all we are is a cause and effect machine. Also since "enjoyment" is merely a chemical, and since (according to you) it won't matter either way whether we enjoy our life or not because we all become food for the worms at our death....

You cannot help but borrow from theism, someone "outside the box", to live your life.....and that is because of it's undeniable and innescapeable truth. We all are, after all, made in the "Image of God." Its kinda like trying to escape your own face. Its with you wherever you go.

 

[IH8 Money]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

And so once again I ask for your meaning of "better"; whence it came, and why anyone should feel the need to make their life "better" since all we are is a cause and effect machine. Also since "enjoyment" is merely a chemical, and since (according to you) it won't matter either way whether we enjoy our life or not because we all become food for the worms at our death....

You cannot help but borrow from theism, someone "outside the box", to live your life.....and that is because of it's undeniable and innescapeable truth. We all are, after all, made in the "Image of God." Its kinda like trying to escape your own face. Its with you wherever you go.

For me the glass is half full
Do you like your computer? Would you rather play a game or off yourself? You pose a tough question:laugh:

Cause and effect. If you improve your life, and become happier, maybe it will spread. So if you want to make the world better start with YOURSELF.

Why do you take offense at what I have to say?
My stand point is live YOUR life , and be happy with what you have.
Let people come to their own conclusion.

"you cannot help but borrow from theism, someone "outside the box", to live your life.....and that is because of it's undeniable and innescapeable truth."

Do you know what empathy is?

 

[JediJeb]

I will put this in a highly technical mode.

Evolution says life proceded from single sell to multi cell to advanced like us. Well we are here, and single cell organisms are here, but are there any 2 cell or 3 cell organisms now.? If not where did they go? How many cells does a creature have to have before it can reproduce an exact replica of itself ( barring the obvious single cell organism)?

Can anyone give me a sound scientific answer to these questions?

 

[kotss]

Originally posted by: FreemanHL2
Actually we are discussing the "highly technical" subject of evolution transcending time.

People tend to think of time as being "physical" when it is merely our way of counting "moments." Time is not real, you cannot travel through time, because time has already passed, and it is just the name we give to passing moments. How do you suggest we travel back in time??? How can we relieve moments that have already passed??? Time is just our way of COUNTING moments and cannot be traversed at all.

For this reason time cannot have a beginning and therefore had to exist forever... How can you have a beginning to time??? How can you START counting moments when clearly you could continue counting the moments before time started??? Time is forever.

I'd also like everyone here to know something startling, space is nothing... yes it contains no oxygen, no atoms, NOTHING. Obviously there are bodies of gas in space, and stars and planets... but space itself is NOTHING. Space is never ending, because NOTHINGNESS has no beginning or end, and neither do moments of time.

I hope we can all agree on this??? I hope all the evolutionists on this forum can agree with me on something; it cannot be any other way.

So time is never ending and so is space... after all almost every scientist on the planet now agrees space has no ending. So the REAL question is how did WE start. Well no matter what you believe in we had to have a cause in order to come into effect. I doubt anyone is disagreeing with me so far.

So SOMETHING had to transcend time! Now was it atoms or was it god? That is the difference between evolution and creation.

Now I ask you, why does an atom have the properties it does? Why does it have an intricate design, a nucleus, electrons...? How was something like that ALWAYS there??? And if time never began then why are we here, how can we be here if it took an infinity to get here???

It can only be answered by god, god himself transcends time. God created our own perception of time, time started for us because we started when god decided to create us, he gave us the perception of time. But to him, time is different, time has no beginning or end, time is infinite. It somehow makes perfect sense, that time doesn?t actually exist to god, it is merely a perception given to us by our creator.

It is the ONLY logic. I'd like to hear your replies.

Well I am certainly glad that space is empty, where would all those stray hydrogen particles go.
Lets not forget all the electromagnetic radiation zinging by.
Let me ask a question, do you truly believe the atom has the properties it does?
Is space truly empty?

Answer these 2 questions and we will have further discourse, that interleave into the rest of the theories
you have presented.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: FreemanHL2
Actually we are discussing the "highly technical" subject of evolution transcending time.

People tend to think of time as being "physical" when it is merely our way of counting "moments." Time is not real, you cannot travel through time, because time has already passed, and it is just the name we give to passing moments. How do you suggest we travel back in time??? How can we relieve moments that have already passed??? Time is just our way of COUNTING moments and cannot be traversed at all.

For this reason time cannot have a beginning and therefore had to exist forever... How can you have a beginning to time??? How can you START counting moments when clearly you could continue counting the moments before time started??? Time is forever.

Lemme mess around with this one. You say time is a way of counting moments. What is a moment? How are you referencing how fast or how slow a moment passes? If you had nothing to reference to, has time stopped? If time can stop, that means it can have a beginning.

 

[everman]

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: FreemanHL2
Actually we are discussing the "highly technical" subject of evolution transcending time.

People tend to think of time as being "physical" when it is merely our way of counting "moments." Time is not real, you cannot travel through time, because time has already passed, and it is just the name we give to passing moments. How do you suggest we travel back in time??? How can we relieve moments that have already passed??? Time is just our way of COUNTING moments and cannot be traversed at all.

For this reason time cannot have a beginning and therefore had to exist forever... How can you have a beginning to time??? How can you START counting moments when clearly you could continue counting the moments before time started??? Time is forever.

Lemme mess around with this one. You say time is a way of counting moments. What is a moment? How are you referencing how fast or how slow a moment passes? If you had nothing to reference to, has time stopped? If time can stop, that means it can have a beginning.

Time is real, not just a concept for counting the days. I think if you google Time Dilation, that might give you some insight. I really don't understand the underlying concepts to a great degree, but the effect of time is somehow related to the speed of light and how fast you are moving in relation to that.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: everman

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: FreemanHL2
Actually we are discussing the "highly technical" subject of evolution transcending time.

People tend to think of time as being "physical" when it is merely our way of counting "moments." Time is not real, you cannot travel through time, because time has already passed, and it is just the name we give to passing moments. How do you suggest we travel back in time??? How can we relieve moments that have already passed??? Time is just our way of COUNTING moments and cannot be traversed at all.

For this reason time cannot have a beginning and therefore had to exist forever... How can you have a beginning to time??? How can you START counting moments when clearly you could continue counting the moments before time started??? Time is forever.

Lemme mess around with this one. You say time is a way of counting moments. What is a moment? How are you referencing how fast or how slow a moment passes? If you had nothing to reference to, has time stopped? If time can stop, that means it can have a beginning.

Time is real, not just a concept for counting the days. I think if you google Time Dilation, that might give you some insight. I really don't understand the underlying concepts to a great degree, but the effect of time is somehow related to the speed of light and how fast you are moving in relation to that.

Time dilation is essentially as your approach relativistic speeds (speeds that are comparable to the speed of light), in your perspective everything around you slows down. However, to a standing person, he sees you as slowing down. The interesting part is that the only way to 'see' time slowing down is to have a reference point and to observe that THAT reaction has slowed down (whether it is a clock or a half life decay). However, what if there was nothing to observe? That's an interesting side topic.

 

[andyman7]

how can you even begin to say that christianity is the ONLY "right" way?
what about the people who came before jesus or before this religion was even started? what about the people who lived in parts of the world where they were never exposed to this religion?
are these people just screwed because they never became "enlightened" to the ways of christianity?
anyway, i will just leave it at that b/c it is pointless to enter a debate with people who refuse to change their view on the matter. it is like arguing with a brick wall...

 

[Peter]

Christianity spinners regularly make me want to hurl. One book, no clue, loads of bull. Can we get back to Highly Technical matters NOW? Thanks.

 

[rezinn]

I'm sorry, but I didn't see one seriously informed question posed in your post. DNA doesn't decide to do anything, it mutates. Millions of years of random events is plenty to evolve, when a bacterium can "evolve" to become resistant to antibiotics in minutes. Whether or not we needed to evolve is unimportant, because it happened and we have plenty of evidence proving it. There is zero evidence that I know of, or could conceive of, proving creationism.

And I don't see human behavior as having anything whatsoever to do with evolution. We have inhabited a very small part of the timescale of living things. Evolution is generally accepted to occur on the scale of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years. We are intelligent beings which have no use for the so-called "survival of the fittest"; our instincts are not what pays the bills, it's our intellect for the most part.

As for your last post, I'm not going to waste your time since you see only one logic and think everyone agrees with you I'll just say that you're wrong. I strongly suggest that, if you really want to learn the other side of the story, you read up some perhaps on evolutionary biology and physics pertaining to space. I doubt you'll want to, and I'm not going to send you somewhere, but to argue a point you really need to understand all possible sides. You'll see that there are plenty of theories much more concrete than anything you'll find about creationism showing that space is not empty, and that the structure of atoms is no coincidence which must have been created divinely. Also, I don't think anyone ever thought of time as being physical

 

[HeaterCore]

"It is the ONLY logic...and we'll stretch you on the rack until you agree."

You're an idiot. There are a ton of reasons I could list, but I'll just leave it with one of your internal inconsistencies: you say that "almost every scientist on the planet now agrees space has no ending" (which isn't actually true -- current theory has it that the universe is expanding, and so space does in some sense have an "ending" -- but whatever), so you're willing to give credence to scientific consensus. Yet, you disregard the absolutely overwhelming scientific consensus in favor of some form of evolution. What, the scientific establishment (or at least your erroneous interpretation of it...) only good enough for you when it supports your predetermined beliefs?

Stay out of technical, scientific matters with your religious pap. It might be true and worthwhile, but it can't be tested and so isn't science.

-HC-

 

[HeaterCore]

-double post-

 

[Peter]

Originally posted by: rezinn
I'm sorry, but I didn't see one seriously informed question posed in your post. DNA doesn't decide to do anything, it mutates. Millions of years of random events is plenty to evolve, when a bacterium can "evolve" to become resistant to antibiotics in minutes. Whether or not we needed to evolve is unimportant, because it happened and we have plenty of evidence proving it. There is zero evidence that I know of, or could conceive of, proving creationism.

Exactly. Evolution is a neverending repetition of random change followed by natural selection - whatever the deciding factor currently is, it isn't in the process of change, it's in the selective process of living to breed or dying of not being as suitable for your environment as the others are.

Bacteria is a prime example where you can watch evolution at work, in the course of minutes, hours, days. That's because the breeding rate (and thus the change rate) is so high. Species that breed slowly evolve slowly. Still, even we humans do. We're growing taller, our skulls change, our dentition does too, toes are slowly but noticeably going out of fashion.

As for your last post, I'm not going to waste your time since you see only one logic and think everyone agrees with you I'll just say that you're wrong. I strongly suggest that, if you really want to learn the other side of the story, you read up some perhaps on evolutionary biology and physics pertaining to space. I doubt you'll want to, and I'm not going to send you somewhere, but to argue a point you really need to understand all possible sides. You'll see that there are plenty of theories much more concrete than anything you'll find about creationism showing that space is not empty, and that the structure of atoms is no coincidence which must have been created divinely. Also, I don't think anyone ever thought of time as being physical

As I already said - reading just one book leaves you with zero clue.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
How so? Maybe they deal with it, but they all have a fundamental problem....they are inconsistent.

"Inconsistent" with... what? Christianity? Or do you believe that all other religions are not self-consistent?

That is the only way out because that is what Jesus himself said (see below).

Uh... do I need to define "circular reasoning" for you? Saying "Christianity is the only 'correct' religion because Jesus/Christianity/The Bible says so" is not much of an argument.

True, true, many do promise to bring you closer to God. But that is exactly where Christianity is different. At the core of all other religions is a prideful attempt of man to justify his existence and bring himself closer to God and bliss. ...<snip rant on why Christianity is right and everyone else is wrong>...

The truth of Christianity is the only self consistent, rational, and fulfilling belief/religion/absolute truth.

I'm gonna stop here. Clearly you haven't studied much philosophy or theology if this is how you sum up "all other religions". Or you've deluded yourself to the point where nothing any of us says is going to make you change your point of view.

 

[unipidity]

Do we have to have this kind of thread in HT, or even on AT forums?

 

[Peter]

Fund. A. Mental.

The word says it all

 

[andyman7]

funny story....my sister got yelled at in a grocery store parking lot by a stranger, who was a southern baptist, b/c she had a darwin fish (pic) on her car (and she is a christian biologist)
tried to explain her point of view but quickly gave up and drove away

in conclusion!!!, do everyone a favor and lock the thread

 

[Gilby]

Originally posted by: FreemanHL2

Anyway can i ask you a THEORETICAL question? What if armegedon came tommorow and proved there was a god??? what would you do??? Don't you think you should be a little more open just incase?

And what if it wasn't your god? What would you do? Don't you think you should be a little more open? Just in case?

 

[Gilby]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Oh yeah....and about the "Why not any other religion?"

Only Scripture (God's Word to mankind, the Bible) accounts for the unbeliever's hostility and failure of men to acknowledge the necessary truth of God's revelation; not to mention that only Scritpture provides the only escape from the effects of this hostility and failure (futility and damnation).
---->Bahnsen, "Always Ready"

Thanks, man. It does my heart good to know that the art of sarcasm is still alive and well.

 

[SilthDraeth]

Lets not drive this kid away from the forums yet, even if his first few posts are out there.

He has an agile mind, and imagination. I just think he needs to find more focus.

And i will jump on one small thing...

The dna deciding bit... changes occur at the cellular level all the time, they are called mutations. If the mutation is not beneficial it is usualy discarded., sometimes the mutations run rampent, and then can be considered "Cancer" Cancer is simply cells that are sick, and mutated, meaning they differ from naturally health tissue.

Through hundreds of years, and into the millions of years, these mutations (changes occur, and some are for the better, and they stay) this causes what is commonly known as evolution.

You do not need creationism, or evolutionism theory though to prove that life adapts to the world around it.
Bird Flu - mutating so that cross species, and now attacks human immune systems

Mad Cow Disease - can cause symptons similar to if not Creutchfield Jacobsins Disease (spelling?)

AIDS/HIV - retrovirus with no known cure that is constantly mutating to adapt to treatments...

Common cold/flu virus.

Antibiotics, and why taking them to much is bad, because they become less effective as the stuff they are trying to fight becomes immune to them, through mutations.

All this happens every day and you know about it. Just apply that same logic to the larger scale.

 

[Gilby]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

The truth of Christianity is the only self consistent, rational, and fulfilling belief/religion/absolute truth.

And I plead with you that you choose it.

So let me get this straight....all the other religions are wrong--inconsistant was your word...because they disagree with Christianity. And Christianity is right...because it agrees with Christianity.

Absofackinglutely unbelievable. How does one even begin to debate with a brain this dense?

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: Gilby

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

The truth of Christianity is the only self consistent, rational, and fulfilling belief/religion/absolute truth.

And I plead with you that you choose it.

So let me get this straight....all the other religions are wrong--inconsistant was your word...because they disagree with Christianity. And Christianity is right...because it agrees with Christianity.

Absofackinglutely unbelievable. How does one even begin to debate with a brain this dense?

Clearly none of you has addressed the simple problem I posed that, if left unaccounted for, leaves any and all arguments you make against Christianity void and without effect. I have already made known the problem, and now you are the ones who must provide the foundation for your arguements.

I suggest you go re-read the posts I've made. In order for you to prove the Bible wrong, you must to use reason and logic. Yet you cannot use reason and logic without automatically affirming their veracity in that they flow directly out of God's character and cannot be the effect of a solely cause and effect universe. They are real because to prove them wrong, you must use them. And now because they are real, none of you can explain where they came from with your view of the world. Your all's view of the world is inadequate, incomplete, and inconsistent.

God is the Creator: Revelations 4:11

"Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created."

Men are rebels: Romans 3:10-12

"as it is written: None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Rebels deserve punishment: 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

"in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

Jesus died for rebels: 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18
(2:24)

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed."

(3:18)

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit"

Jesus will judge: Acts 17:30-31

"...he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

There are two ways to live: John 3:36

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the sun shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Romans 10:9

"if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

 

[kotss]

To: soccerballtux

You have proof of God's Existence?, explain it to me with something I can observe. Words written on paper by other men do not constitute proof. Show me God. God is formed from belief, and there is nothing
wrong with that. Why is it that faith in God(s) other than yours is wrong? Do not give me the rehetoric
of what the bible says, because I want proof that the bible is truly the word of God. Prove to me how God
dictated into the minds of men the words it wanted written down.

Reasoning and logic are tools of the mind. Simply that.

God is not a product of Logic and Reasoning, it is a product of faith.

Why is it then called a leap of faith, it is not called a leap of logic. You do not need to leap when you use
logic, you follow results and come to conclusions based on the results you observe.

The "problem" with basing your belief on words written in a book, is that you do not even know the
source of the words, you have to have faith in order to come to the conclusions you have come to.
You cannot use logic, otherwise it would force you to see that you do not know the source of the words.

What do you call when a bacteria changes and becomes resilient to the anti-bacterial agent that once used
to kill it?
Please use logic and reasoning to come to your conclusion.

[Bait]
And if you want I could prove to you, by using the bible and the supposed words of god, that everything
wrong with this world is the fault of god.

[/Bait]

 

[Jeffyboy]

DNA randomly mutates and in lab tests... mutations are always harmful instead of useful... never has a mutation created anything helpful (that you can prove was a mutation). For evolution to work... you would have to have mom and dad ape for example... give birth to a new creature genetically different.... not only that... another mom and pop ape somewhere else would have to give birth to a similair creature of the opposite sex... and these creatures would have to be reproductive chemically compatible otherwise they would not be able to have babies. It's ridiculous to think of this happening... and there are no fossil records to indicate that gradual change has occurred from ape to man so spontaneous evolution is the theory but it's just totally silly since it couldn't viably work. If gradual evolution occurred... there would be an abundance of fossil records which there isn't... not to mention evolutionists haven't painted a really nice picture of how this works yet... so creationism can't be ruled out.


Jeff

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Peter
Science: Sets up a theory. Invites everyone to try and poke holes in it. If someone manages to do so, improves or even disposes of the existing theory. Educates the general public.

Religion: Sets up a theory. Calls everyone who tries to poke a hole in it a "heretic". If someone manages to do so anyway, disposes of that person and whistles innocently. "Protects" the general public from "internal" knowledge.

Nuff said.

As a scientist I'm laughing at you. Wow. I mean, this is a nice pedestal and all, but did you have to make it so high and shiney?

Let me give you a couple more examples.

BAD SIDE OF HUMANITY:
Science: Sticks with currently available theories. Sneers at "pseudo-scientists" who believe that certain experiments show that there's something more going on. Uses a complex system of grant money, tenure, and publication to control which ideas are accepted and which are suppressed.

Religion: Sets up a theory. Calls everyone who tries to poke a hole in it a "heretic". If someone manages to do so anyway, disposes of that person and whistles innocently. "Protects" the general public from "internal" knowledge.

GOOD SIDE OF HUMANITY:
Science: Sets up a theory. Invites everyone to try and poke holes in it. If someone manages to do so, improves or even disposes of the existing theory. Educates the general public.

Religion: Spends their lives working to improve the human condition. Donates time and money to help the less fortunate, even those who don't believe the same thing they do. Understands that the interpretations of both religious works AND scientific evidence have varied widely throughout the years, and will sometimes appear to be in conflict; resolving this is a secondary issue to leading a moral life and helping others.