HTWS v1.0

[Pacal]

Considering a new PC that would accommodate personal use as well as serving up movies via Plex to 6 other locations in my home. I want to ensure each location can get a full (theoretical) 1Gbps to stream or transfer (Roku3 or SmartTV) blueray quality films. So I have included a 4-port NIC into my build.

Mobo: ASUS MAXIMUS VI GENE LGA 1150 Intel Z87 Intel Motherboard
CAD: AMD 100-505634 FirePro W7000 4GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 CrossFire
VIDEO: SAPPHIRE 100361BF4SR Radeon R9 290X 4GB GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0
CPU: Intel Core i7-4771 Haswell 3.5GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1150 84W Quad-Core
SYSTEM: SAMSUNG 840 Pro Series MZ-7PD512BW 2.5" 512GB SATA III MLC Internal SSD
MEMORY: G.SKILL Trident X Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 F3-2400C10Q-32GTX
STORAGE: WD BLACK SERIES WD4003FZEX 4TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s
OPTICAL: LG Black Blu-ray Burner SATA WH16NS40 - OEM
SOUND: Creative S. Blaster ZXR (70SB151000000) PCI Express x1
NIC: Intel E1G44HT 4 Port NIC (10/ 100/ 1000Mbps) PCI-Express 2.0 Server Adapter I340-T4

Hoping for a general critique... I'm concerned about the performance of this system if I'm playing BF4 and the kid's are queuing up Blueray movies on their Roku3 or SmartTV...

 

[mfenn]

Can you update your post with answers to the questions posed in this thread?

First glance shows the following weird/unexplained choices:
- Two GPUs?
- Expensive/overkill motherboard
- Overkill RAM
- Bad cost/gig SSD
- Bad cost/gig HDD
- Unneeded sound card
- Unneeded quad-port NIC (Blu-Ray maxes out at 54 Mb/s) and lack of enterprise switch for LACP support anyway

Overall, it seems to me like you just picked out the most expensive part in every category.

 

[Cerb]

NIC: useless. Get an Intel onboard, like many ASRocks have, and you'll be fine (and even that is just for compatibility reasons, as Realteks and Atheros won't always be able to use jumbo frames with every piece of equipment, but Intel and Broadcom seem to be good about that, and Intel is widely available for little to no extra cost). Everything else will come down to switch, client devices, and software. A many-port NIC will only work for you with a fancy managed switch, or several switches on different subnets, which is going to be a PITA, and will create more problems than it might be able to solve.

Router: 12-port router? No. Just have the router hook to a switch, and hook your LAN up to said switch.
WAN <-> Router WAN port <-> Router <-> GbE LAN port <-> 16-port GbE switch (assuming you need >8 ports).
I can't vouch for performance of any particular switch models.

Motherboard: why?! Your needs are that of a <=$100 H87 board.

HDD: better to have multiple cheaper HDDs in an Intel RAID 0 or JBOD, 1, 5, or 10, for streaming, than a single big Black. If RAID 0 or 5, just make sure you have current backups to replace the whole array with, instead of trying to rebuild it on a drive failure (IoW, treat RAID 5 as a RAID 0 with an extra drive to hold you over for a few days, rather than as a repairable array). Intel's onboard RAID is an excellent non-caching semi-FakeRAID for Windows, with friendly management facilities.

IMO, go with NAS drives or regular desktop 7200 RPM drives for a RAID/JBOD. RAID 0, 1, 10, or 5 will give you multiple drives with which to read from, offering better read performance than a single drive. It's not the bandwidth that you may need to worry about, but the risk of a buffer running too low due to someone else browsing the file system, and using up the single HDD's seeking ability, that could pose a problem, with multiple concurrent streams on a single drive.

SSD: expensive for no real benefit. If you're concerned about TLC, get a cheaper Toshiba (Q series) or Micron (M500), given prices today. While slightly smaller, the M500 480GB can be had for as low as $305, with no gimmicks. The performance differences are so small you've never notice, and both Toshiba's and Crucial's current drives excel with small but >1 queue depths, which are the only cases where you might really end up waiting on an SSD.

RAM: G.Skill is fine, but 2400 is usually very high cost, and not worth any higher cost over 1600, if you have a video card.

Video card: gaming only. If you do CAD, too, and need a supported GPU for it, make a reasonable gaming/server PC, and then use the saved money on a CAD PC. Given that you're wasting around $1000 on this PC, that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Audio: what do you need the sound card for?

CPU: fine.

Case: surely you're not going to run this right on a tabletop...

Edit: PSU! Where's the power coming from?!

 

[Pacal]

mfenn,

Thank you for offering your thoughts on my build!

Q> Two GPUs?
A> I do an amount of 3D Modeling using Solidworks and the W7000 excels at handling assemblies with a large array of parts. Its very important that I have a fluid view of a model as I'm working on it and flexing it. This is not something the Radeon R9 290X or any desktop graphics card does very well. The other video card, the Radeon R9 290X, is purely for my own personal entertainment and gaming.

Q> Expensive/overkill motherboard
A> I chose a motherboard with the capacity for 10xSATA III devices and sufficient PCI slots for two video cards and a 4-port NIC.

Q> Overkill RAM
A> Maxing out the RAM is not overkill, but the speed/brand may be. I will have to do some comparative shopping for DDR3-1600 in 4x32GB.

Q> Bad cost/gig SSD
A> I'm not expert on SSD's or a proper value-to-capacity ratio. I had planned to use an SSD as the primary drive and SATA III drives for storage of movies, music, et cetera

Q> Bad cost/gig HDD
A> Certainly open to suggestions. I made my selection based on RPM, Cache, and Storage as well as reputation for longevity. I'm quite receptive to alternative recommendations. I'll have to do some price/GB comparisons.

Q> Unneeded sound card
A> Understandable, and noted. The onboard sound card is probably sufficient for all uses of the PC and the system isn't dedicated to any one home theater station.

Q> Unneeded quad-port NIC (Blu-Ray maxes out at 54 Mb/s) and lack of enterprise switch for LACP support anyway
A> Bare in mind, I want the capacity to deliver content to 6-8 rooms in my home of Blu-Ray quality video and 5.1 SRS Audio. If I were to team up the two integrated NICs for a total of 1600mb/s or 200MB/s that's just enough for 4 rooms. Adding a 4-port dedicated NIC gives me sufficient bandwidth for 8 rooms. LACP is not required. I can configure network services to listen on multiple IP addresses which is how I would configure each port. I was planning on buying a router & switch but I have since learned I can configure the PC as a switch and use one of the onboard NICs for the WAN connection.



Cerb,

Thank you for your thoughts and advice on this build!

NIC:
"A many-port NIC will only work for you with a fancy managed switch, or several switches on different subnets, which is going to be a PITA, and will create more problems than it might be able to solve."

> Actually, I can use the PC itself as the "fancy managed switch" and onboard NIC for the WAN connection. Each port will be dedicated to a specific location in my home. So I can ditch the router/switch.

Motherboard:
> I made my selection based on 10xSATA III connections and sufficient PCI slots for 2 video cards and 1-2 4x NICs. The options were few but I'm very receptive to alternative recommendations.

HDD:
> Much agreed! I'm aiming for 8 SATA III drives in a RAID 5 or 10 array depending on the cost per drive.

SSD:
> Very insightful thank you!

RAM:
> 1600 is a better value, noted!

Video Cards:
> Adding the AMD Firepro W7000 gives this system full OpenGL support which is a lot cheaper than building a separate machine. I plan on revising this build according to comments made.

Case:
> I purchased a Azza CSAZ-1000

PSU:
> Clueless. The Power Supply Calculators seem misleading. Looking for full modularity, pfc, high-efficiency, 1kw range.

 

[Cerb]

Q> Two GPUs?
A> I do an amount of 3D Modeling using Solidworks and the W7000 excels at handling assemblies with a large array of parts. Its very important that I have a fluid view of a model as I'm working on it and flexing it. This is not something the Radeon R9 290X or any desktop graphics card does very well. I ran across OpenGL drivers for a desktop graphics card that might bolster performance for solidworks, but I just don't know. The other video card, the Radeon R9 290X, is purely for my own personal entertainment and gaming.

Those are two separate computers.

Q> Expensive/overkill motherboard
A> I chose a motherboard with the capacity for 10xSATA III devices and sufficient PCI slots for two video cards and a 4-port NIC.

SATA ports are easy to add with any full-size motherboard.

Q> Unneeded quad-port NIC (Blu-Ray maxes out at 54 Mb/s) and lack of enterprise switch for LACP support anyway
A> Bare in mind, I want the capacity to deliver content to 6-8 locations/rooms in my home of Blu-Ray quality video and 5.1 SRS Audio. If I were to team up the two integrated NICs for a total of 1600mb/s or 200MB/s that's just enough for 4 rooms. Adding a 4-port dedicated NIC gives me sufficient bandwidth for 8 rooms. LACP is not required. I can configure network services to listen on multiple IP addresses which is how I would configure each port. A standard 12-port switch would be sufficient in this scenario.

You will need multiple networks, will want multiple switches, and each client device will need more NICs, as well. If network performance is an issue for this, the solution is not a monster gaming desktop with a many-port NIC, but for the gaming desktop to have nothing to do with file serving.

The more I read it, the more I think you really need three computers, but don't really know it, yet.

 

[Pacal]

You beat me to submitting my edit Cerb!

I really hope 1 pc will be sufficient for all 3 purposes, but I understand where you're going with the idea of dedicated workstations and servers.

 

[mfenn]

First off, it really helps if you lay out all the intended uses for the machine right off the bat rather than that revealing them over time.

Q> Two GPUs?
A> I do an amount of 3D Modeling using Solidworks and the W7000 excels at handling assemblies with a large array of parts. Its very important that I have a fluid view of a model as I'm working on it and flexing it. This is not something the Radeon R9 290X or any desktop graphics card does very well. The other video card, the Radeon R9 290X, is purely for my own personal entertainment and gaming.

Here's the thing: there is no magic switch that tells Solidworks to use the FirePro and games to use the R9 290X. The two GPUs are architecturally very similar, it's only the drivers that really make them different. But you can't have both sets of drivers installed at the same time without conflict. Hence: multiple PCs.

Q> Expensive/overkill motherboard
A> I chose a motherboard with the capacity for 10xSATA III devices and sufficient PCI slots for two video cards and a 4-port NIC.

Why do you need 10 SATA ports with only 3 SATA devices in the build (HDD, SSD, ODD)? Or is there some extra information that we're missing?

Q> Overkill RAM
A> Maxing out the RAM is not overkill, but the speed/brand may be. I will have to do some comparative shopping for DDR3-1600 in 4x32GB.

It would be helpful if you listed out exactly what you want to do with the PC, being as detailed as possible. 32GB of RAM is certainly overkill for what you have listed in the OP.

Q> Bad cost/gig SSD
A> I'm not expert on SSD's or a proper value-to-capacity ratio. I had planned to use an SSD as the primary drive and SATA III drives for storage of movies, music, et cetera

You don't need an 840 Pro unless you're running a very write-intensive server (compile box, transactional database box, etc.). The Crucial M500 240GB would be a good starting point.

Q> Bad cost/gig HDD
A> Certainly open to suggestions. I made my selection based on RPM, Cache, and Storage as well as reputation for longevity. I'm quite receptive to alternative recommendations. I'll have to do some price/GB comparisons.

3TB drives like this Seagate are much better cost per gig than 4TB drives. You could get 6TB worth of 3TB drives for less than the price of one 4TB drive (and twice the performance to go along with it). As a general rule of thumb, the highest capacity drive is almost never the most cost-effective.

Q> Unneeded quad-port NIC (Blu-Ray maxes out at 54 Mb/s) and lack of enterprise switch for LACP support anyway
A> Bare in mind, I want the capacity to deliver content to 6-8 rooms in my home of Blu-Ray quality video and 5.1 SRS Audio. If I were to team up the two integrated NICs for a total of 1600mb/s or 200MB/s that's just enough for 4 rooms. Adding a 4-port dedicated NIC gives me sufficient bandwidth for 8 rooms. LACP is not required. I can configure network services to listen on multiple IP addresses which is how I would configure each port. I was planning on buying a router & switch but I have since learned I can configure the PC as a switch and use one of the onboard NICs for the WAN connection.

I think your math if off by an order of magnitude. The maximum data transfer rate of a Blu-Ray movie is 54 Mb/s. That's 54 MegaBITS per second. A gigabit network is 1000 Mb/s, or enough for almost 20 streams.

> Clueless. The Power Supply Calculators seem misleading. Looking for full modularity, pfc, high-efficiency, 1kw range.

You definitely do not need a 1KW PSU for this machine. Fully-modular also makes little sense because you will be using most cables anyway. A good 650W is plenty for a single-GPU machine (see above) with as many HDDs as you care to throw at it. For example, the Rosewill Capstone 650W for $90.

 

[Cerb]

I think your math if off by an order of magnitude. The maximum data transfer rate of a Blu-Ray movie is 54 Mb/s. That's 54 MegaBITS per second. A gigabit network is 1000 Mb/s, or enough for almost 20 streams.

Even if some clients get stuck not using jumbo frames, 6-8 streams should work reliably. Making sure there is spare disk IO and CPU time to handle the odd desktop client browsing and saving, or media server/client updating its indices, is key, so long as they all are GbE. Windows still treats the idea of storage priority as, "until this guy's done, you all gotta wait," leading to performance problems with mixed-function boxes.

Provided you don't do parity RAID with ZFS, or something like that, a lowly Pentium will have more than enough power to act as a media server, even running a Windows desktop version client (7 and 8 allow 20 connections on Home, so it's actually viable).

 

[mfenn]

Even if some clients get stuck not using jumbo frames, 6-8 streams should work reliably. Making sure there is spare disk IO and CPU time to handle the odd desktop client browsing and saving, or media server/client updating its indices, is key, so long as they all are GbE. Windows still treats the idea of storage priority as, "until this guy's done, you all gotta wait," leading to performance problems with mixed-function boxes.

Provided you don't do parity RAID with ZFS, or something like that, a lowly Pentium will have more than enough power to act as a media server, even running a Windows desktop version client (7 and 8 allow 20 connections on Home, so it's actually viable).

This is kind of off topic, but I figured I'd opine a little. IMHO Jumbo frames are an idea whose time has come and gone.

The Ethernet header is only 38 bytes for a untagged frame, so going to jumbo only saves you about 190 bytes versus 6 standard sized frames (2%).

Reducing frame count also reduces the number of interrupts that your CPU receives because traditionally you'd get one interrupt for every frame. Reducing that by a factor of 6 was absolutely significant when GigE first came out. But these days, NICs and drivers are much smarter at interrupt coalescing, letting you configure the interrupt rate independently of the frame size. Of course, CPUs have gotten faster as well.

 

[Sleepingforest]

In my personal, non-expert opinion, you'd benefit greatly from separating all your needs into more machines. A streaming machine shouldn't have graphics cards or a big CPU: it needs good Ethernet connectivity, lots of hard drives, and ideally, a low idle/running power. Meanwhile, a gaming and general use machine can use an overclocked CPU, just an SSD (maybe an HDD if you haven't moved all your media onto the NAS yet), and a big, possibly overclocked, consumer GPU. And your Solidworks computer needs enterprise drivers for it's GPU, and a stable, factory validated CPU.

In other words, smashing all of these devices together is just going to create a headache which isn't really good at any one thing.

 

[Cerb]

But these days, NICs and drivers are much smarter at interrupt coalescing, letting you configure the interrupt rate independently of the frame size. Of course, CPUs have gotten faster as well.

Has it, now? The 50%, or sometimes more, mysterious performance drops w/o it are the only reason I've cared. I haven't looked lately to see if I can induce such behavior...

 

[VirtualLarry]

Has it, now? The 50%, or sometimes more, mysterious performance drops w/o are it the only reason I've cared. I haven't looked lately to see if I can induce such behavior...

What about the Windows Multimedia Scheduler - if playing back a media stream on the desktop, it throttles the network interface down from gigabit to something around 100Mbit speeds. Another good reason to separate out the functionality of these boxes.