I am a Christian

[ballmode]

this was a rant post... not entertained

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: ThePresence
I am not Christian, I don't believe in the divinity of man, any man, but I found this a thoughtful, well-written post. :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:
Same, although I question this whole being "damned" thing A few people did bring it up, so I see no further point. But if God does exist, I cannot see how justice exists through him when he casts most of the world to hell --> especially for those who honestly look for God and come to a different answer but are still dedicated in their minds....how can they get the raw deal as compared with people who "grew up" in the right religion?

Either way, in the end it'll be God's choice no matter what we bicker Lets just all hold hands and sing to some Beetles Songs...

Hey, I didn't say I don't believe in God, just not in a man being divine.

 

[Orsorum]

I do not suppose I have ever shared with you some of my more difficult moments as a Christian, Paige; if I was a Christian when I met you I was a Christian in name only. There are times where I would like to believe, for the sense of love and belonging that I miss, the sense of spiritual fulfillment and purpose that I now lack. Of course, I can look back now and wonder how much of that I really felt and how much of that I *wanted* to feel. But that's another discussion.

I struggle with the idea of a hell, and I struggle with the theological structure and idea of a god that needs worship. I struggle with the idea that I need personal salvation for sin, for sin to me seems to be nothing other than living, and I cannot believe a god would create me that would cast me away from Him simply for existing. I struggle with the idea that billions of humans will be condemned to hell because they did not accept Christ as their savior, when many of them never heard the Gospel and the rest often heard it at the hands of evil men.

I do know, as I have told you, that the two happiest moments in my life were the time I accepted Christ as my savior and the day I gave up my Christian faith. I am not bitter towards Christianity; in truth, I envy your peace.

In any event, I need to read and to sleep. I hope this thread stays civil, because I think these discussions are valuable and well worth participating in.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: athithi
You believe in 'speaking in tongues' but not evolution and that is because our scientists have been wrong before? By that same yardstick, I would argue that 'speaking in tongues' and other such religious acts have probably been disproved far more often, far more dramatically and with greater finality than just about any scientific rationale, leave alone evolution.

Mm, I don't really look at them on the same playing field, since one is a question common to mankind about origins and the other is just my personal private experience with something that doesn't/hasn't affected anybody else.

[Edited because I looked at this again in the morning and didn't find it a good/sufficient answer]

How can you disprove tongues when you have no way of determining which experiences with tongues are legitimate and which are not? You can disprove tongues a thousand times and never be sure you were testing a true experience instead of an emotional or induced one (something I've brought up several times).

My disbelief in evolution most certainly can be rationally explained. I don't believe that science has reached the pinnacle of research and that there is more to be learned, that the theories will be adjusted as those things are learned. What is irrational about that? If you believe that the theory as it stands provides a full and complete explanation, you have greater faith in it than do most scientists.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
Thank you for apologizing for us Christians :roll:

Do you think that we need no apologies whatsoever, as a group? I honestly don't think we're so flawless.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Luthien
Here is more than a hint for you hotchic since it isn't obvious to you for obvious reasons and is your very first sentence to boot and the one you missed in your list, lol, once again proving my point that you don't see the obvious.

"I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I honestly believe the only way to heaven is repentance and a true belief in Jesus Christ."

South Park dramatization of the point: Kenny Going To Hell

Everyone before you through out all history and prehistory before Christianity existed is going to hell unless they believed your very first statement and all the generations to come. I know you don't think that is offensive which is as I said.

Just the fact that I believe something you don't is not (or rather, should not) inherently be offensive to you. Many people in the world believe differently from me, and I'm not offended. You obviously think very poorly of me based on your view of the world, and I'm not offended. Nor should you be by my thoughts.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: HotChic


I don't believe in evolution and I don't think that makes me a moron. I see that science has gone through many many iterations of fact and I doubt that evolution is the last theory that's going to come around. The most prominent scientists in the world used to believe some pretty goofy stuff, and I don't know why that trend should end with our enlightened age. I wonder if the next major iteration of scientific fact about origins will happen in my lifetime.

Evolution may not be the last theory that goes around, but being able to scrap a theory and go in a different direction is one of the cool things about science. Scientists don't just change theories for nothing though. Every time a major change has occurred it has been because something new has been learned.

That means that while the facts we have may be right, our extrapolations or "theories" based on those facts will likely end up being wrong. This is not a bad thing. If a theory serves no purpose other than to lead researchers to evidence that ultimately discredits it, then it has increased our knowledge of the world around us.

I'm not trying to say that you should believe in evolution. I don't really view scientific theories as things to be believed in at all. Quite the contrary, they're things to be looked upon with interest and no small measure of doubt. What I'm wondering is why, since you can't reliably invest yourself in the current theory of origin, you feel the need to put something else in the place it would take in your belief system?

So evolution probably isn't the answer. Why do you think creationism IS the answer?

Did I say I did think that in my post?

 

[Trevelyan]

It's rare that a single person holds the same views as I do on abortion, the war in iraq, AND evolution. I like that line, "I don't believe in evolution and I don't think that makes me a moron."

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: shilala
I'm not a fan of religion, although I respect it. Too many ideas bang their heads against each other, and I tend to be the kind of guy who looks for differences rather than similarities.
I know that about myself, so I don't draw too many "I believe in" lines in the sand. I've also found that when I draw those lines, I tend to stop learning and stop growing.
Another thing I've found is that the more I learn the less I know. So I try my damnedest to keep an open mind.
I don't think that believing in Christ, God, Buddha, Allah, or anything else makes me "better than" or that non belief makes anyone "less than".
I don't think evolution and creationism conflict at all, because I feel that the Bible isn't intended or meant to be literal.
I believe it is purposely vague to incite discussion. If I'm talking about God, then I'm not talking about all the other things I talk about that probably aren't very good for me.
Somewhere along the way I found that I'd far rather feel good than be right. I don't feel good when I'm fighting, whether it's inside me or with someone else. So I do everything I can to avoid fighting.
I also found that faith is not a thought. It's an action. It's not an idea, it's a feeling.
This whole life thing is a journey. You've heard it a million times. So many times that it's cliche.
But that's what it is. It unfolds. Thing is, it unfolds whether I'm watching or not. If my eyes are closed, I miss an opportunity to learn.
It's a crying shame when I close my eyes because of a "belief".
I know now that the reason I didn't understand certain things earlier in life is because I didn't have the capacity to understand. Yet.
It's like trying to explain the color red to a blind man. He can't see until he can see.
If I close my mind because of my "beliefs", then I cannot see.

Thanks for contributing.

 

[IEC]

A :beer: for you HotChic - we Christians are certainly not perfect people, and I agree with most of what you said.

And before some nut starts bashing me for the :beer: - Jesus drank. There's nothing wrong with a drink, though drinking excessively leads to bad things.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Analog
Okay, I'm not totally understanding the reason for this thread, but I do think the majority of this forum is taking it a bit easy on you because they know you are a female (is that why you posted your pic?). Anyhow, I belong to a Lutheran church and I teach 1st grade Sunday school and VBS amongst other things. I totally agree with your treatise and can relate personally to it.

The thing that puzzles me is why you are posting this in a forum that loves to flog any Christian that posts his/her colors here. What is the goal of this thread? Yes, I read the first line!

I don't think the forum is taking it easy on me because I'm female - the mods have deleted entire threads that were devoted to personal attacks on me before. I think most people are taking it easy on me because I spent time writing my post, thinking it out, and writing it in a non-offensive manner. Whether people agree with what I say or not, most are willing to play ball when that's the ballfield.

[edit] And my reason for the thread was, after watching the video of the psycho woman screaming about "dark sided" people, I felt like talking about how not all Christians are like that.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
I AM AN ATHEIST


I am an atheist because of the overwhelming scientific evidence that supports evolution over creationalism.
I am an atheist because it is easy for me to see the horrors and attrocities committed by man, horrors that no greater power who's concerned about our well being should ever let happen.
I am an atheist because that "God gives us free will!" excuse is just a loop hole.
I am an atheist because I like to think for myself, believe in myself, and live a life that's fulfilling for myself, without any mysterious force inspiring me.
I am an atheist because religious texts are often filled with Homophobia, racism, and other forms of organized hatred that I simply can not accept.
I am an atheist because religion has been the number one cause of war, death, destruction, and hate.
I am an atheist because if God is as apathetic as he seems to be, then I don't need him.

Make your own damn thread.

Should we only appreciate contributions that agree with us?

Thanks for contributing.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
A :beer: for you HotChic - we Christians are certainly not perfect people, and I agree with most of what you said.

And before some nut starts bashing me for the :beer: - Jesus drank. There's nothing wrong with a drink, though drinking excessively leads to bad things.

Before I go to bed I'll make one more point. Back then "wine" as it was called was nowhere near the alcoholic content of today's wines, beers, etc. They didn't have distillation methods that we employ today. Alcohol levels by volume were less than .5%. The grapes were allowed to ferment to wine to disinfect it due to the bad water inherent in older times.

Drinking is advised against in several places in the Bible. While I dont believe God actually says "dont drink" (except to Samson and a few other), any intoxication whatsoever is highly disdained by God.

As for me, I will never drink alcoholic beverages.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Connoisseur

Originally posted by: HotChic
I do believe in hell. And yes, I believe that most people who haven't asked and received God's pardon are probably going there, but that's between them and God and there's lots about God I don't understand. I don't preach hellfire and brimstone. I don't yell at people that they're going to hell; in fact, I've never told anybody that unless specifically asked by them if I believe they are. I think God doesn't just automatically send everyone to heaven because you are given the choice about whether you want to worship and serve God while you're here, and he's not just going to override your choice so you spend eternity doing something you didn't want to do on earth.

Sorry didn't bother reading through the fetid swamp of evolution posts but this is the part that really gets my goat (and no, i'm not angry at you specifically, just this particular belief. Feel free to rebut any comment I make).

Last I remember, Christians make up about 30% of the world's population. That means there's approximately 4.2 BILLION people on the planet who are automatically going to hell just because they didn't ask forgiveness from the CHRISTIAN god. These people could range anywhere from the average joe in America to some poor kid living in a town in the middle of Africa who hasn't even HEARD the term Christ. I refuse to believe that this so called "loving and fair" God of Christianity is so vain that he expects every human being to magically believe in him/her/it even if that person couldn't POSSIBLY know about that particular personification of God (or Jesus or the holy llama). If he is that vain, screw him; hey I can say it if I'm going to Hell anyway.

Furthermore, the belief that all non-christians are going to hell implies that Christianity is somehow the one "good" religion. Let's keep in mind here that: a) age-wise Christianity is one of the YOUNGEST religions around and b) many religions before taught the same values that Christianity claims to have the monopoly on. Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism... all these religions taught a lot of the same crap that Christianity does. Not to mention that MANY of the stories and morals from the Bible are DIRECT copies of much older religions.

Look, i'm Hindu, and that definitely skews my opinion for sure. But one thing I honestly DON'T believe is that a person is going to be punished after death just because he/she chooses to worship one intangible deity over another. If there is a God, you've got a couple of options on his/her personality:
1) The God(s) is an actual caring, loving god in all his omniscient glory in which case, i'm sure that not killing/stealing/cheating/being a douchebag and generally being a decent person should guarantee passageway into the great beyond
2) God is a hateful vengeful bastard (which seems to be the case in MANY of the older stories... the ones I like anyway) in which case he created most of the world's population just to suffer for his sadistic pleasure
3) God is just someone who created us and then let us run around with no further interaction and is quietly laughing as we assume there's some sort of mystical afterlife
For my sake, I hope it's 1 or 3.

Whew long post. Had to get that off of my meaty heathenistic chest. Once again, i'm not angry at you HotChic. It's respectable that you gave your honest opinion. Now you've got mine.

Thanks! I appreciate the honest thoughts and that you didn't phrase them in attack type verbiage.

For many of the reasons you listed, I included the section, "but that's between them and God and there's lots about God I don't understand." Honestly, my perception of others going to hell is based on my interpretation of reading scripture and I could be totally wrong. In fact, I hope I am. I figure that ultimately, whether I've understood that right or wrong, God is both merciful and just, and that this is something he'll work out without any of my help.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Before I go to bed I'll make one more point. Back then "wine" as it was called was nowhere near the alcoholic content of today's wines, beers, etc. They didn't have distillation methods that we employ today. Alcohol levels by volume were less than .5%. The grapes were allowed to ferment to wine to disinfect it due to the bad water inherent in older times.

I'd like to know what you base that on. There are reasons to believe that ancient wine had a much higher alcohol contect and was much stronger than todays wines, which is why it was normally watered down.

Drinking is advised against in several places in the Bible. While I dont believe God actually says "dont drink" (except to Samson and a few other), any intoxication whatsoever is highly disdained by God.

Wine is used on many religious occasions, especially the Jewish ones that I'm familiar with. While it may seem reasonable to you, I'd also like to know how you know that intoxication is highly disdained by God.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Before I go to bed I'll make one more point. Back then "wine" as it was called was nowhere near the alcoholic content of today's wines, beers, etc. They didn't have distillation methods that we employ today. Alcohol levels by volume were less than .5%. The grapes were allowed to ferment to wine to disinfect it due to the bad water inherent in older times.

I'd like to know what you base that on. There are reasons to believe that ancient wine had a much higher alcohol contect and was much stronger than todays wines, which is why it was normally watered down.

Drinking is advised against in several places in the Bible. While I dont believe God actually says "dont drink" (except to Samson and a few other), any intoxication whatsoever is highly disdained by God.

Wine is used on many religious occasions, especially the Jewish ones that I'm familiar with. While it may seem reasonable to you, I'd also like to know how you know that intoxication is highly disdained by God.

The Bible does say don't get drunk. Whether it's referring to 20 glasses of .05% alcohol or 1 glass of 20% alcohol, I don't think really matters.

 

[compuwiz1]

Sorry HC, I just stopped by to pass gas.

That said, yes, I'm a Christian, but I don't go to church. I got tired of people who told me to do one thing on Sunday, then watched them do another thing on Monday.

Too much hipocrisy for me, to go to church.

I despise organized religion. My belief, is that one's relationship with the God of his / her understanding, is a personal relationship. I'm not going further than that.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Before I go to bed I'll make one more point. Back then "wine" as it was called was nowhere near the alcoholic content of today's wines, beers, etc. They didn't have distillation methods that we employ today. Alcohol levels by volume were less than .5%. The grapes were allowed to ferment to wine to disinfect it due to the bad water inherent in older times.

I'd like to know what you base that on. There are reasons to believe that ancient wine had a much higher alcohol contect and was much stronger than todays wines, which is why it was normally watered down.

Drinking is advised against in several places in the Bible. While I dont believe God actually says "dont drink" (except to Samson and a few other), any intoxication whatsoever is highly disdained by God.

Wine is used on many religious occasions, especially the Jewish ones that I'm familiar with. While it may seem reasonable to you, I'd also like to know how you know that intoxication is highly disdained by God.

Indeed, my Jewish friends certainly have nothing against drinking. When you lose self-control or do hurtful things is when you cross the line. Just having a few isn't bad, and certainly isn't condemned in the Bible, Old or New Testaments.

 

[mooncancook]

just wanna share a thought

i've been thinking why God allows ppl who has done tons of great things in this world to go to hell if they don't believe while a criminal can go to heaven if he's a believer. Sounds unfair to me at first. Then I thought of an analogy. A doctor who's done a lot of great deeds to his patient and saved thousands of lives committed a murder of his wife coz he found out his wife was cheating on her. Would it be fair to say that the lives he's saved can cover up his crime? One crime is enough to make a person guilty despite how great a person he has been. One sin is enough to make a person sinner, and regardless how many good deeds we do, we are still sinners.

excuse my English.

 

[DaveSimmons]

I'm an agnostic, since I lack faith.

I believe that belief in any religion requires faith, since all of them deal with beings and/or forces outside of natural law (even if they created that law).

I believe that atheisim also requires faith, since science can at best disprove the need for the supernatural, not whether it exists. It's faith to take the extra step that one is certain nothing exists outside of natural law.

I respect those that do have faith and live by it, as long as they don't try to force their views on others.

(A biology class would only teach evolution not "intelligent design" though, because it is a science class. Religous opinions on how life was created would belong in other classes.)

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
A :beer: for you HotChic - we Christians are certainly not perfect people, and I agree with most of what you said.

And before some nut starts bashing me for the :beer: - Jesus drank. There's nothing wrong with a drink, though drinking excessively leads to bad things.

Before I go to bed I'll make one more point. Back then "wine" as it was called was nowhere near the alcoholic content of today's wines, beers, etc. They didn't have distillation methods that we employ today. Alcohol levels by volume were less than .5%. The grapes were allowed to ferment to wine to disinfect it due to the bad water inherent in older times.

Drinking is advised against in several places in the Bible. While I dont believe God actually says "dont drink" (except to Samson and a few other), any intoxication whatsoever is highly disdained by God.

As for me, I will never drink alcoholic beverages.

And your position is supported as well. There are plenty of examples of those who vowed never to drink. A prime example is the story of the Recabites

Their forefather told them not to drink, and apparently generation after generation they kept his word...

 

[judasmachine]

Hi I'm ambivalent.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: HotChic

Originally posted by: athithi
You believe in 'speaking in tongues' but not evolution and that is because our scientists have been wrong before? By that same yardstick, I would argue that 'speaking in tongues' and other such religious acts have probably been disproved far more often, far more dramatically and with greater finality than just about any scientific rationale, leave alone evolution.

Mm, I don't really look at them on the same playing field, since one is a question common to mankind about origins and the other is just my personal private experience with something that doesn't/hasn't affected anybody else.

The mind of HotChic is still the same when dealing with either, isn't it? I am not debating that a personal experience is different from a public issue, but just pointing out the discrepancy in the processing of either information by the same individual. I don't mean to be rude, but this is nothing but selective reasoning. If I started speaking in tongues, the first person I would contact would be a psychiatrist. On the other hand, considering my very convenient interpretations of the divine, I would probably rationalize such a experience as my brain's way of handling a situation beyond my ken. I don't hold your religious experiences against you. To the contrary, I think it makes you more interesting and I am quite sure a much nicer person to boot. However, your disbelief in evolution cannot be rationally explained and I can only surmise that you have the same automatic belief in the non-existence of evolution that you have with the existence of your religious experiences.

Nevertheless, I would like to reiterate my point that religion is good. Faith in a supernatural, benevolent power is good. Sometimes, it is the only thing that keeps mankind good.

 

[Reckoner]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Sorry HC, I just stopped by to pass gas.

That said, yes, I'm a Christian, but I don't go to church. I got tired of people who told me to do one thing on Sunday, then watched them do another thing on Monday.

Too much hipocrisy for me, to go to church.

I despise organized religion. My belief, is that one's relationship with the God of his / her understanding, is a personal relationship. I'm not going further than that.

Kind've goes against the Christian views a weeeee bit don't ya think? I don't go to church on Sunday, but that's because I'm a sinner (or I'm working). I don't blame it on the parishoners or the Priests. Although, I do see what you describe in terms of two-faced people acting one way at church, and an entirely different way outside of it. You said it yourself - it's a personal relationship between yourself and God. Go out of thankfulness of God bringing you to life.

 

[Mani]

Nice post. Christianity would have more respect nationwide if people like you were its representatives rather than the guys you mentioned.