I got flamed :-O

[MailBoxHead]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: MailBoxHead

Originally posted by: SampSon
Education should be completely unbiased. It will never be achieved though.

So in nazi germany, if you were required to salute hitler with the open flat fist straight out, but not sing the song, wouldn't the message be the same?

That's quite a comparison. Now what is wrong with you?

Nothing is wrong with me. Extreme analogies grab attention and mabey make people think. Apparantly it didn't work on you, which is to be expected.

It has to do with respect for the country you reside in.
If I don't have respect for it, why should I be forced to go through the motions that show that I have respect for it?

Or, you could just not bother responding to me, just yell out DEY TURK ARR JRBS, and tell me to get out of the country.

Dude how can you not respect our country? I can understand not respecting the Dub and our government but our country is all about your fellow citizens!

I don't know where this person is coming from, but thanks for answering for me Red.

 

[MacBaine]

I don't think we need 2 threads debating this issue... 1 is more than enough already.

 

[Legendary]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: MailBoxHead

Originally posted by: SampSon
Education should be completely unbiased. It will never be achieved though.

So in nazi germany, if you were required to salute hitler with the open flat fist straight out, but not sing the song, wouldn't the message be the same?

That's quite a comparison. Now what is wrong with you?

Nothing is wrong with me. Extreme analogies grab attention and mabey make people think. Apparantly it didn't work on you, which is to be expected.

It has to do with respect for the country you reside in.
If I don't have respect for it, why should I be forced to go through the motions that show that I have respect for it?

Or, you could just not bother responding to me, just yell out DEY TURK ARR JRBS, and tell me to get out of the country.

Dude how can you not respect our country? I can understand not respecting the Dub and our government but our country is all about your fellow citizens!

That wasn't implied. As you said, I have no respect for the powers that be.

I'm not sure what you mean by "education should be completely unbiased." When classes start, I'm as unbiased toward students as I can be. But, during the process, biases will be developed, and I don't believe it's wrong to do so. Students WILL be treated differently based on their behaviors. If I have a student with a 50 average who does all his homework, pays attention during class, takes notes, etc., then I'm going to go out of my way to help that student succeed. If they ask me to stay after school to help them, I will, during my own unpaid time.

However, if a student has a 70 average, doesn't do homework, doesn't pay attention, doesn't take notes (actually, the 70 would be quite a stretch, given those circumstances!), that student has extra small group instruction to help him during the school day but he's rude and won't put forth any effort for the other instructor; then, when that student comes to me to see if I'll stay after school (on my own time) to help him get ready for the test, the response is "you already had your chances, you blew it. Pay attention next time and do your homework, and I'd be willing to help. But, I'm not going to bail you out."
I think that shows a bias against the 2nd student. I gave the first student more opportunities. BUT, at the same time, it's teaching that student something about responsibility. Equally as important (if not more important) as math.

Unbiased as in national pride has no place in the classroom. At all.
I wasn't speaking about YOU, I was speaking about education in general. Your biases as they pertain to specific students are really non of my concern.

What about a student has a 99 test average, 0-50 homework average and an overall 70 average because of the lack of doing homework? Sleeps all day in class, comes in late, and is completely apathetic about the education because it's a crap that caters to the lowest common denominator.

Wow you just specifically described my participation in my Calc class senior year of HS. Not exactly 50 for HW, but close.

 

Originally posted by: MailBoxHead

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: MailBoxHead

Originally posted by: SampSon
Education should be completely unbiased. It will never be achieved though.

So in nazi germany, if you were required to salute hitler with the open flat fist straight out, but not sing the song, wouldn't the message be the same?

That's quite a comparison. Now what is wrong with you?

Nothing is wrong with me. Extreme analogies grab attention and mabey make people think. Apparantly it didn't work on you, which is to be expected.

It has to do with respect for the country you reside in.
If I don't have respect for it, why should I be forced to go through the motions that show that I have respect for it?

Or, you could just not bother responding to me, just yell out DEY TURK ARR JRBS, and tell me to get out of the country.

Dude how can you not respect our country? I can understand not respecting the Dub and our government but our country is all about your fellow citizens!

I don't know where this person is coming from, but thanks for answering for me Red.

Ok, I'll play the devils advocate you think I'm playing here. Just to entertain you.

How can I respect millions of people that can't even write a check, tell me our first president, locate America on a map or think that GWB is doing a good job. Yes, this nation of over indulgent, self-centered ignorant slobs truly deserves respect! /end devils advocate.

Wow you just specifically described my participation in my Calc class senior year of HS. Not exactly 50 for HW, but close.

Yup. That was high school for me. I got to sleep 70% of the day because I had this ability to understand things the first time I heard them. So, for being smart, I got punished.
Oh well, cry me a river.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: MacBaine
I don't think we need 2 threads debating this issue... 1 is more than enough already.

I'm not debating whether it's legal or not. I'm trying to debate whether you can judge a person's character on their willingness/lack thereof to say a simple pledge to the flag.

 

[allisolm]

When you choose a behavior you get to live with the consequences for that behavior.

That happens all the time in real life. Today a teenage boy drove up while I was putting gas in my car and, when he was 4 feet from the pumps, he flicked a lit cigarette out of the driver's window. He probably is not actually by scientific measurement a moron, but I judged him to be one anyway.

The students have a right not to stand for the pledge, the teacher has a right to form an opinion of them based, at least in part, on that behavior.

 

[jyates]

Originally posted by: notfred

I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America

I pledge nothing to a flag. The flag in and of itself is meaningless. It's what it represents that's important. I'm not going to blindly follow around a peice of cloth just because it's red white and blue.

and to the republic for which it stands.

I generally like that part.

One Nation Under God

I don't beleive in god. Even if I did beleive in god, it's obvious that our nation is NOT following god, regardless of which god you choose.

indivisible

Not really, remember the civil war? This nation was quite divided for several years.

With Liberty,And Justice For All

That's more than a little bit idealistic.

But if I were to take your class, I'd never get a recomendation from you for anything, because I didn't pledge something that I didn't beleive.

Welcome to ATOT......this is the land of non-believeism (a word I made up perhaps?) and
doubt. A place where every little statement is torn apart word by word and sentence by
sentence and paragraph by paragraph by posters who have made it their mission to
rebel and dissent with everything that is said.

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: allisolm
When you choose a behavior you get to live with the consequences for that behavior.

That happens all the time in real life. Today a teenage boy drove up while I was putting gas in my car and, when he was 4 feet from the pumps, he flicked a lit cigarette out of the driver's window. He probably is not actually by scientific measurement a moron, but I judged him to be one anyway.

The students have a right not to stand for the pledge, the teacher has a right to form an opinion of them based, at least in part, on that behavior.

:thumbsup:

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Chiropteran

Originally posted by: DrPizza

I commented that I require the students to stand up...

Nonetheless, at the Olympics, when any other country's national anthem is being played, doesn't the crowd stand up out of respect?

If you are FORCING the students to stand, then they are not doing it out of repect.

thank you. i'm surprised it took 6 posts or so before someone pointed this out.

:roll:

so, let's use another example, let's say i'm a teacher and i decide to start every class with a prayer. i don't require any of the students to pray with me but OUT OF RESPECT i require them to get on their knees.

:roll:

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Legendary

Wow you just specifically described my participation in my Calc class senior year of HS. Not exactly 50 for HW, but close.

Hey! You wouldn't have been punished in my class. I tell my calculus class that "homework is 20% of your grade. You're all getting a 100% for homework. If you can master the material without doing any homework, then congratulations. I'm not going to waste your time forcing you to practice 15 problems. If you only do the 4 or 5 hard problems to make sure you've mastered it, then great! But, if you need to do the practice in order to master the material, and decide to blow it off, your grade is going to suffer by having a horrible test average. It'll all work out in the end."

(Freshman have no such option! This is my attempt to get my best students to be self-reflective about their learning, and to be ready to take the responsibility to do their homework in college -especially in courses where the professor assigns problems but never checks them or goes over them. )


btw, Mr. Devil's advocate So, you're saying that you object to the pledge on ground that our country isn't perfect and it's filled with morons? I agree wholeheartedly with the belief that the country is filled with self-centered ignorant slobs, with a lack of basic knowledge, and who think Dubya's doing a good job. But, I'd rather be in that minority that actual cares about the country, that tries to make a difference, rather than one who has decided to separate myself from the masses and just do my own thing.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Chiropteran

Originally posted by: DrPizza

I commented that I require the students to stand up...

Nonetheless, at the Olympics, when any other country's national anthem is being played, doesn't the crowd stand up out of respect?

If you are FORCING the students to stand, then they are not doing it out of repect.

thank you. i'm surprised it took 6 posts or so before someone pointed this out.

:roll:

so, let's use another example, let's say i'm a teacher and i decide to start every class with a prayer. i don't require any of the students to pray with me but OUT OF RESPECT i require them to get on their knees.

:roll:

I am such a fvcking moron! I realize now in hindsight that I'm wrong to believe that you teach children how to be respectful. I forgot - it's a hereditary trait. (Or is it an instinct? Yeah, that's it... we don't have the instinct to build nests in trees, but we have the instinct to be respectful to others around us.) I'm glad I'm not a kindergarten teacher, I'd have been actually forcing the children to share the toys in the classroom (gasp!) Thanks for the great insight! I now realize that good character is a trait that someone must be born with. When all those parents force their kids to say "please" and "thank you", it's not good manners, because they're being FORCED to do so. Geez, if a student said "hey you, gimme a pencil, man." I should have been giving them a pencil, rather than forcing them to say "may I have a pencil please?" God forbid I attempt to teach manners or respect in school. That must be the parents job. But, then again, it's not respect, because it would just be the parents forcing them. So, respect is obviously a trait you're born with.

edit: I forgot to add the rolling eyes at the end.

 

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Legendary

Wow you just specifically described my participation in my Calc class senior year of HS. Not exactly 50 for HW, but close.

Hey! You wouldn't have been punished in my class. I tell my calculus class that "homework is 20% of your grade. You're all getting a 100% for homework. If you can master the material without doing any homework, then congratulations. I'm not going to waste your time forcing you to practice 15 problems. If you only do the 4 or 5 hard problems to make sure you've mastered it, then great! But, if you need to do the practice in order to master the material, and decide to blow it off, your grade is going to suffer by having a horrible test average. It'll all work out in the end."

(Freshman have no such option! This is my attempt to get my best students to be self-reflective about their learning, and to be ready to take the responsibility to do their homework in college -especially in courses where the professor assigns problems but never checks them or goes over them. )


btw, Mr. Devil's advocate So, you're saying that you object to the pledge on ground that our country isn't perfect and it's filled with morons? I agree wholeheartedly with the belief that the country is filled with self-centered ignorant slobs, with a lack of basic knowledge, and who think Dubya's doing a good job. But, I'd rather be in that minority that actual cares about the country, that tries to make a difference, rather than one who has decided to separate myself from the masses and just do my own thing.

If you think that saying the pledge is caring for the country, were in much deeper trouble than I thought.
It is absoltuly wrong to judge the character of a pupil based on if they stand for the pledge or not.
If anything, I would want more people thinking differently.

 

[slick230]

I could have given two sh!ts less what my teachers thought of me. That's not their fvcking job. Their job is to teach (or try to teach) the subject matter. I never saw any of them again, so whatever opinion they may have formed of me based on my saying the Pledge or not meant exactly SH!T. And I'm sure many of your students may feel the same way. Teach your class, and stuff your opinions. Oh, and I'm sure your students have made judgements on YOUR character based on your actions, also.

 

[Imdmn04]

Standing up is giving enough respect, saying the words is unnecessary if you dont believe in what you are saying.
By your own logic, hoping the students stand-up and murmur the words of the pledge unwillingly is like telling all the audiences from other countries in the olympics game to sing along with the gold medalist's national anthem. Standing up is enough of respect. Why judge a student's charcter just because they don't wanna say something they don't believe in?

 

[Rufio]

so many righteous people in this thread...

teachers have to put up w/so much crap at work.....

is it so wrong for DrPizza to demand that the kids who do not want to recite the Pledge show some respect?

Maybe they don't have to stand...but at least they shoud STFU.

And I bet 1/2 those kids who don't want to recite the Pledge don't want to because it's the "cool' thing to do or becuase they are lazy bastards.

Kids in classes nowadays are so disrespectful. DOn't put up w/that crap

 

[bmacd]

i didn't read what everybody else posted...but to the OP, i think it was a great post and i commend you for i believe the same

-=bmacd=-

 

[Hector13]

Originally posted by: Maverick
I think not saying the pledge is retarded. This country provides people with so many freedoms they take for granted. At least give them their two minutes.

If they have to take out the words "under God" thats fine...thats between them and Him...but at least say the rest of it out of respect for the nation.

do you realize that one of the freedoms that this country gives us is the right to NOT say the pledge? The point made about nazis above is right on.

A teachers job is not to grade someone on their respect for the US. Their job is to grade someone on their mastery of the coursework. Teachers personal beliefs nave no place in the process.

 

[Rufio]

Originally posted by: Hector13

Originally posted by: Maverick
I think not saying the pledge is retarded. This country provides people with so many freedoms they take for granted. At least give them their two minutes.

If they have to take out the words "under God" thats fine...thats between them and Him...but at least say the rest of it out of respect for the nation.

A teachers job is not to grade someone on their respect for the US. Their job is to grade someone on their mastery of the coursework. Teachers personal beliefs nave no place in the process.

unfortunately that is not the case..not even in the work place.

in a perfect society, no one would be judged except for their performance. however, teachers have favorites, bosses have favorites, everyone has favorites.

 

[Eli]

You judge a person based on whether they say some arbitrary line of bullsh!t at the beginning of class or not.

That is the problem. That is not something you should be doing as a teacher. You shouldn't be judging any of your students based on things that have no bearing on school. It just hinders your ability to teach them.

 

[dabuddha]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
just because something is the tradition and the norm is NOT justification for doing it.

this country has done and is doing a lot of things that i don't support, so i wouldn't say the pledge either. i pay my taxes as payment for the services this country provides me with, but i pledge to no one. to me the flag symbolizes a lot of arrogance, murder, hypocrisy, lies, prejudice, etc. the flag is like religion: so many evil people cloak themselves in it to feign rightousness that it holds no luster for me anymore. judgement goes both ways: i now judge you as someone who supports all the things i listed above.

edit: i should add that i don't think it's out of line to stand. after all, the country pays for their education (assuming you teach in a public school). but i think your judgement of the kids that don't parrot the pledge is off base. and keep in mind that if you let your personal political opinions affect your grading, you are A) a c*ck, and B) setting yourself up for a richly deserved lawsuit.

So it's morons like you that bring about all the idiotic frivolous lawsuits.

 

[Hector13]

Originally posted by: dabuddha

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
just because something is the tradition and the norm is NOT justification for doing it.

this country has done and is doing a lot of things that i don't support, so i wouldn't say the pledge either. i pay my taxes as payment for the services this country provides me with, but i pledge to no one. to me the flag symbolizes a lot of arrogance, murder, hypocrisy, lies, prejudice, etc. the flag is like religion: so many evil people cloak themselves in it to feign rightousness that it holds no luster for me anymore. judgement goes both ways: i now judge you as someone who supports all the things i listed above.

edit: i should add that i don't think it's out of line to stand. after all, the country pays for their education (assuming you teach in a public school). but i think your judgement of the kids that don't parrot the pledge is off base. and keep in mind that if you let your personal political opinions affect your grading, you are A) a c*ck, and B) setting yourself up for a richly deserved lawsuit.

So it's morons like you that bring about all the idiotic frivolous lawsuits.

no, lawsuits are brought on because of morons who infringe on people's rights by trying to force their own views on others.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Respect is something they should do
However, accepting, is up to their choice

The kids probably just want to be rebellious in a way

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You say you form an opinion, yet you do nothing with it? If so, what?

Suppose someone is generally personable and polite. Helpful to others, in general a good Josephine. BUT. That pledge thing. They don't do it. d

Now what do you do with it?


Let's try this hypothetical.

I am an academician teaching a course on political science. You say in my class you believe students should say the pledge. I think you are a mindless sheep (I don't, but this is a hypothetical). I therefore believe you lack character. If I have to make a recommendation according to your logic, I should take that into account?

Where you are over the line IMO is that you are not there to judge character based on the Pledge. You are there to evaluate the student's performance, and interaction with others, and the level of responsibility demonstrated IN FACT. You cannot objectively insert your political philosophy in any meaningful sense.

When you insert a bias unrelated to performance or interaction with faculty or students as it relates into a recommendation, you have gone too far.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Hector13

Originally posted by: Maverick
I think not saying the pledge is retarded. This country provides people with so many freedoms they take for granted. At least give them their two minutes.

If they have to take out the words "under God" thats fine...thats between them and Him...but at least say the rest of it out of respect for the nation.

do you realize that one of the freedoms that this country gives us is the right to NOT say the pledge? The point made about nazis above is right on.

A teachers job is not to grade someone on their respect for the US. Their job is to grade someone on their mastery of the coursework. Teachers personal beliefs nave no place in the process.

Fortunately, I'm a teacher and you're obviously not. Character education is now mandated in public schools in many states now (including mine). We're expected to teach a little more than just the coursework. Thus, your *opinion* is in contradiction to the requirements of my job. Actually, teaching the "coursework" is the easiest part of my life. That part takes virtually no effort, just a little thought in the planning process.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
You say you form an opinion, yet you do nothing with it? If so, what?

Suppose someone is generally personable and polite. Helpful to others, in general a good Josephine. BUT. That pledge thing. They don't do it. d

Now what do you do with it?


Let's try this hypothetical.

I am an academician teaching a course on political science. You say in my class you believe students should say the pledge. I think you are a mindless sheep (I don't, but this is a hypothetical). I therefore believe you lack character. If I have to make a recommendation according to your logic, I should take that into account?

Where you are over the line IMO is that you are not there to judge character based on the Pledge. You are there to evaluate the student's performance, and interaction with others, and the level of responsibility demonstrated IN FACT. You cannot objectively insert your political philosophy in any meaningful sense.

When you insert a bias unrelated to performance or interaction with faculty or students as it relates into a recommendation, you have gone too far.

To a degree, I agree with you. Good response, Winston. Nonetheless, I don't find it wrong to consider everything I know about a student. As I stated before, it would be far from a sole factor effecting my decision on their character. Thus, "Suppose someone is generally personable and polite. Helpful to others, in general a good Josephine. BUT. That pledge thing. They don't do it" would probably be judged favorably by me. Nonetheless, there is a strong correlation between the students who do not say the pledge (in my experience) and students who routinely get in trouble with other teachers... detentions, etc. Those teachers giving them detentions have no knowledge of their pledge habits. Yet, the students in my homeroom who respectfully stand and recite the pledge rarely (if ever) have been assigned detentions by other teachers.