I hate Steam.

[Zensal]

Originally posted by: n7
I don't like Steam either.

It's very restrictive DRM; something i've always been very much against.

Sadly, it's obvious most people cannot see this, & are all too happy to profess their love of a very flawed system.

Some of us understand exactly what we are getting into and are okay with it. It's okay that you don't like it or use it, but some of us are just fine with the trade-offs.

I understand that when I buy or "lease" a Steam game, that I am agreeing to play in their backyard. They set up the terms and you are free to play with them or not.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: pmv

Originally posted by: skace

And you think that's what the majority of the offenders were? All immigrants from Russia and Thailand right? No, they were Americans who saw that they could pay a lot less to buy it from another country. And yes, it took Valve awhile to catch on, because they thought they were doing foreign countries a favor, and didn't expect Americans to dig so low.

Not that I am hugely bothered by this import issue, but "doing foreign countries a favor"? Really?

This is a profit-making company we are talking about, doing 'capitalism'. It's not done as a 'favour' its called 'market segmentation'. They want to price things at the price point that leads to maximum profits for each market. The optimum price-point for rich countries is higher than that for poor countries, if they priced them at the high level everywhere they'd get no sales in the poor countries and hence no profit. But if rich country customers can buy things at poor country prices the profits are again sub-optimal.

I'm OK with that, its legitimate commercial logic, but its when similar restrictions are placed for countries that are at roughly the same economic level (such as the US and UK) that I get annoyed. The only reason for doing that (and I'm not specifically talking about Valve or even computer games here) is to price-gouge a market that has poor consumer protection or a surfeit of gullible consumers who have gotten accustomed to being ripped off.

Anyhow, Steam is undeniably bad for consumers but its all 'fair' in the market place, if people don't like it they don't have to use it. If Valve make good enough games people will use it anyway. But I really don't understand why some consumers claim to actually like it. Its a necessary price to pay if you like Valve's products, but its not good in itself.

Call me crazy, but I seem to remember the 50-75% off Steam weekend sales actually generated more overall profit than just leaving the pricing set at MSRP. The "rich" country sales will increase in volume, which will offset the reduction in price. Consumers get a great deal and the company makes more profit. This is an everybody wins scenario backed up with hard numbers.

Now onto my opinion. IMO, Steam games aren't worth MSRP to begin with because of the inability of the purchaser to resell the game due to DRM limitations. Also, Steam has many good things going for it, but I still don't think the positives (autopatching, friends lists, etc) outweigh the negatives (deciding if I actually want to patch the game, no reselling your games, dependency on Steam authentication servers, etc). As a gamer, some games are good enough that I'm willing to put up with the BS in order to play the damn game. However, I would purchase and play more games via Steam (aka increase their profits) if they'll meet some of these "bitches" demands. As it stands now, if the benefit of playing a Steam exclusive game doesn't outweigh the annoyance of Steam's DRM imposed limitations; the game simply doesn't get purchased by me.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: Zensal

Originally posted by: n7
I don't like Steam either.

It's very restrictive DRM; something i've always been very much against.

Sadly, it's obvious most people cannot see this, & are all too happy to profess their love of a very flawed system.

Some of us understand exactly what we are getting into and are okay with it. It's okay that you don't like it or use it, but some of us are just fine with the trade-offs.

I understand that when I buy or "lease" a Steam game, that I am agreeing to play in their backyard. They set up the terms and you are free to play with them or not.

When I buy a Steam game, I feel like I should own a piece of property, regardless of what their EULA or TOS says. If they want to get in the business of leasing or renting games, then they should be priced appropriately.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: skace
I'm just glad it's Steam and not Star "I just fucked your PC" force.

I'll give you that one. Starforce was a Ring 0 resident, stealthily installed, poorly coded, piece of poop, which was malware plain and simple. Nearly no one was willing to put up with Starforce. Many more are willing to put up with Steam, since it is much more consumer friendly (compared to malware anyway), but it still isn't welcome on my system in its current state. Not so much because I think the software is bad, in fact I'd say it is coded very well, but because it tramples on the consumer rights we've all enjoyed for so many years, while still failing to prevent piracy. Of course, the real reason for Steam isn't to combat piracy, but to limit resell of games and increase profits from legitimate users. Pirates are largely unaffected by Steam.

 

[Zensal]

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: skace
I'm just glad it's Steam and not Star "I just fucked your PC" force.

I'll give you that one. Starforce was a Ring 0 resident, stealthily installed, poorly coded, piece of poop, which was malware plain and simple. Nearly no one was willing to put up with Starforce. Many more are willing to put up with Steam, since it is much more consumer friendly (compared to malware anyway), but it still isn't welcome on my system in its current state. Not so much because I think the software is bad, in fact I'd say it is coded very well, but because it tramples on the consumer rights we've all enjoyed for so many years, while still failing to prevent piracy. Of course, the real reason for Steam isn't to combat piracy, but to limit resell of games and increase profits from legitimate users. Pirates are largely unaffected by Steam.

Maybe so. But I enjoy the value of $5-10 for some of yesterdays A-games. Some games I just don't care about longevity or the fuzzy line of who "owns" it. They had TF2 for $10 a weekend or 2 ago and Universe at War for $5. If they will allow me to "lease" the game for some untold number of years until they go out of business for $5 or $10, then I accept that.

I choose to vote with my wallet and others should also.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: Zensal

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: skace
I'm just glad it's Steam and not Star "I just fucked your PC" force.

I'll give you that one. Starforce was a Ring 0 resident, stealthily installed, poorly coded, piece of poop, which was malware plain and simple. Nearly no one was willing to put up with Starforce. Many more are willing to put up with Steam, since it is much more consumer friendly (compared to malware anyway), but it still isn't welcome on my system in its current state. Not so much because I think the software is bad, in fact I'd say it is coded very well, but because it tramples on the consumer rights we've all enjoyed for so many years, while still failing to prevent piracy. Of course, the real reason for Steam isn't to combat piracy, but to limit resell of games and increase profits from legitimate users. Pirates are largely unaffected by Steam.

Maybe so. But I enjoy the value of $5-10 for some of yesterdays A-games. Some games I just don't care about longevity or the fuzzy line of who "owns" it. They had TF2 for $10 a weekend or 2 ago and Universe at War for $5. If they will allow me to "lease" the game for some untold number of years until they go out of business for $5 or $10, then I accept that.

I choose to vote with my wallet and others should also.

Well yes, I tend to somewhat agree with you there. I'm not very upset about not being able to resell my $5 copy of Stalker SoC I purchased through Steam for example. However, I am upset about not being able to resell it if I wanted to, and am even more upset that I feel like I need to wait for Steam exclusives (e.g. FEAR 2) to come way down in price before I'm willing to purchase them.

Thankfully, Steam exclusive new releases aren't the only games on the block worth playing, and I tend to pick up non-Steam games much more near full MSRP. Thus I vote with my wallet as well and put my dollars into game studios and/or distributors who are more consumer friendly.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: Koudelka

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
He made two analogies that were completely appropriate: DVDs and books. Instead of responding to these, you responded to an analogy that was quite obviously tongue-in-cheek. This argument style reeks of disingenuousness, which is why I didn't offer a proper response: I won't argue with a weasel that will use a strawman instead of addressing the real points.

Thats sucks you were forced into Steam if you didnt realize DoW2 required the use of Steam. However, you're one of the first people i've met that didnt know that a long time beforehand.

To your post on destroying replays, that would be DoW2's fault. Not Steam.

When I bought HL2 I didn't know I needed Steam. It doesn't say it anywhere, the game doesn't even come with a manual. I was disgusted to find out that I actually needed an internet connection just to play a single-player ONLY game. A LOT of people got hurt on that one, because they didn't have an internet connection to activate the product. It is completely unreasonable to do something like that. This is the one, single thing that has always irked me about Steam and the reason I try to avoid ever buying a game that uses it. I have purchased a few games through Steam, but rarely. There are certainly some good qualities to Steam, and I myself download games at 2mb/s through it which is great. But I should be able to play my games without a second program running. I can do that with all other methods.

 

[Markbnj]

I don't mind the Steam concept, but I was surprised and disappointed when it showed up as part of Empire Total War. What's worse, many games don't run on my Vista Ultimate install without some compatibility tweaks, and I can't figure out how to apply these when the game is launched from the Steam client. So, unfortunately ETW does that maximize-flash-minimize thing that some fullscreen DX apps do on Vista, and repeats until it crashes.

 

[4537256]

Consoles ftw.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: 4537256
Consoles ftw.

Sadly that's becoming more and more true nowadays..

 

[coreyb]

consoles ftl. ive had a ps3 for a while now and havnt beat or even really played any of my games. however, i play roughly 30+ hours a week on my computer.

 

[gtd2000]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: BFG10K
So if I live in Thailand/Russia, buy some legitimate games, then later move to the U.S, are you saying it?s justified to force me to repurchase all of those titles because I?m in the ?wrong? zone?

And you think that's what the majority of the offenders were? All immigrants from Russia and Thailand right? No, they were Americans who saw that they could pay a lot less to buy it from another country. And yes, it took Valve awhile to catch on, because they thought they were doing foreign countries a favor, and didn't expect Americans to dig so low. It's not just Valve here, Valve has to defend every publisher on their resource. And as for GOG, this is exactly why GOG is old games. And an international price means that the price is going to be MORE for foreign countries, not less. Did I cover everything?

Oh, if I moved to another country I'm not sure what I'd expect to be quite honest. I'd expect to do research and I'd certainly expect some impact. Back when I started playing WOW, we played with a bunch of UK people. When WOW was released in the UK they repurchased it for the UK and started over. They didn't bat an eyelash at buying WOW twice, as they knew what they were getting into when they bought into the US servers and tied the game to their US account.

Bah.

I work internationally and my Steam games have been sourced from both the EU and US - I fully expect to be able to play these games online regardless of my geographical location.

I mean come on, my US sourced copy of Windows doesn't stop working because I'm currently in Holland does it? (I'm Scottish/British for the record)

It's quite possible that I could be engaged on a project in Thailand and I'd fully expect any software that I purchase there to work elsewhere in the world UNLESS it states CLEARLY that it can only be used in that particular country.

It's as ridiculous as being told that the cheap pair of Levis I bought in the US can't be worn in the EU where they are twice the price of the US :|

 

[gtd2000]

I forgot to mention that there is one glaring flaw with Steam....

If you install Steam for the first time and launch a game - you'll be sitting there till Xmas to play a game....unless of course you choose to add the chosen game to your firewall exception list

Steam for some reason doesn't tell you this rather useful piece of information but instead the message is displayed in a hidden window behind the interface - that's a fantastic bit of programming!

If you're lucky you might just Alt - Tab and see it - easy enough when you understand that this occurs but for a newbie to Steam you could be pulling your hair out through no fault of your own.

 

[Snapster]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I have never had a problem with Steam. I usually get my games between 600KB-1.05MB\sec.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: gtd2000
It's quite possible that I could be engaged on a project in Thailand and I'd fully expect any software that I purchase there to work elsewhere in the world UNLESS it states CLEARLY that it can only be used in that particular country.

Region coding must really piss you off.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: skace

And you think that's what the majority of the offenders were? All immigrants from Russia and Thailand right?

So do you agree that immigrants should be entitled to those purchases? If not, what relevance does your question have?

No, they were Americans who saw that they could pay a lot less to buy it from another country.

Yep, it?s called bargain hunting. That?s a concept of capitalism, namely paying less to get the same thing legally. What?s next? I can?t buy clothes from India when on holiday and wear them into the U.S. because they?d cost me more locally?

Companies engage in the concept of importing where they buy cheap goods overseas and then sell them locally for a profit. This is economics 101, but you?re making it sound like some kind of heinous act.

Is Valve some kind of charity that I should treat them any differently as a consumer? If they choose to price games lower in other markets, it?s my business if I source them from those markets.

And yes, it took Valve awhile to catch on, because they thought they were doing foreign countries a favor, and didn't expect Americans to dig so low.

Valve was simply exercising their DRM muscle. The fact is, they were legitimate CD keys that were purchased and were working for months before they were retroactively disabled without warning. Furthermore, there?s absolutely nothing in the EULA that stated such restrictions which Valve later imposed.

Again, neither Starforce or SecuROM have the ability to do this, yet somehow they?re treated as the devil incarnate compared to Steam. But when Steam shuts down entire accounts without warning, that?s okay because those people were ?evil? for trying to find a legitimate bargain. :roll:

And as for GOG, this is exactly why GOG is old games.

So do you agree that Steam games as old as GOG?s should have no such restrictions? Let?s see, GOG has 2004/2005 titles which would cover both HL: Source and HL2, so they should?ve never been disabled?

If not then what relevance does your statement have?

And an international price means that the price is going to be MORE for foreign countries, not less. Did I cover everything?

Actually no, they?re the same price, either $5.99 or $9.99. Furthermore GoG can?t shut them down, retroactively or otherwise.

Back when I started playing WOW, we played with a bunch of UK people. When WOW was released in the UK they repurchased it for the UK and started over. They didn't bat an eyelash at buying WOW twice, as they knew what they were getting into when they bought into the US servers and tied the game to their US account.

That?s their problem, not mine.

Region coding must really piss you off.

Why? Region encoding can?t retroactively disable multiple previous working DVDs without warning like Steam can.

Region encoding is established and known, unlike Steam?s retroactive ?policies?.

Region encoding is trivial to circumvent without any risk, unlike Steam. Furthermore, most standalone players require at most a button combination on the remote to de-region them; in many cases they?re already de-regioned out of the box.

 

[illvm]

Dunno. I haven't had any trouble with steam since after the first year or two of its release. Every time I d/l games now it takes maybe 2 hours to fully get and install something like TF2. Can't say I have many complaints about it anymore. OP, might wanna check out your ISP, connection, and/or network hardware to make sure the issue doesn't lie there before blaming Steam.

 

[gtd2000]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: gtd2000
It's quite possible that I could be engaged on a project in Thailand and I'd fully expect any software that I purchase there to work elsewhere in the world UNLESS it states CLEARLY that it can only be used in that particular country.

Region coding must really piss you off.

Ever since it came out I've used workarounds - and it's not illegal to circumvent RPC's outside of the US

 

[FuryofFive]

Originally posted by: gtd2000
I forgot to mention that there is one glaring flaw with Steam....

If you install Steam for the first time and launch a game - you'll be sitting there till Xmas to play a game....unless of course you choose to add the chosen game to your firewall exception list

Steam for some reason doesn't tell you this rather useful piece of information but instead the message is displayed in a hidden window behind the interface - that's a fantastic bit of programming!

If you're lucky you might just Alt - Tab and see it - easy enough when you understand that this occurs but for a newbie to Steam you could be pulling your hair out through no fault of your own.

its not the job of steam to determine if you have a firewall on. last i knew it wasnt there job to concern themselves with your firewall. If your smart enough to install and run steam. I think your smart enough to know if your firewall is on.

 

[ShawnD1]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: gtd2000
It's quite possible that I could be engaged on a project in Thailand and I'd fully expect any software that I purchase there to work elsewhere in the world UNLESS it states CLEARLY that it can only be used in that particular country.

Region coding must really piss you off.

Regionless DVD player - $60. I'm going to guess that no he doesn't care that much about DVD regions since they don't affect anyone.


About the firewall issue, throw that Linksys piece of shit in the garbage and buy a router. A good start is to look for a router that supports gigabit connections. Wireless N is good as well since it means they're probably using more expensive parts. I'm using this one and it's awesome.

As for Steam regions, I think they might tighten this even more so US and Europe are incompatible. A lot of European countries have ridiculously high sales tax (VAT), so buying a US copy is much cheaper. It's relatively easy to use a US proxy when you're in Europe in order to buy a US copy, so the easiest way to stop this kind of legal issue is to make US copies not work in Europe.

 

[pmv]

I thought region coding for DVDs was essentially dead? Not only are region-free players commonplace, but with players costing as little as $30 (even cheaper if you have a couple of DVD drives in your PC, each with different regions) you can simply own an additional player for another region. The low cost of players has surely rendered region encoding completely pointless?

The Steam thing however would require not owning a second $30 DVD player, but owning a separate house and PC in another country and your own helicopter/private jet to travel there each time you wanted to use your different region game! So its not really a very good analogy is it?

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Many people have complained about various aspects of Steam on this thread and Valve could take note and improve their service. When and if they do, you don't have to thank us for ensuring that your Steam experience is better.

You're right, I won't have you to thank, because people like you and apoppin who refuse to purchase things are not the ones that are keeping the services afloat and functional, it's people like me. I'm backing Valve with my hard earned money and when it improves to a level where you somehow feel it justifies your purchase it will be my funding and people like me who got it there, not people who bitched on forums, said fuck valve, and never paid for anything due to their short sightedness.

I'm running the risk because not only do I believe in the service, I believe in the company.

Good for you! I'm glad that you enjoy paying hard-earned money to be a beta tester.

Consumers vote with their wallets. You've a right to vote as you wish. As do others.

I've only bought two Steam games. I really want to like Steam, but I can't. Digital download, awesome! DRM, not so much. Destroying secondary market, fvck that. Fix this crap, and I'll buy a lot more.

 

[gtd2000]

Originally posted by: FuryofFive
its not the job of steam to determine if you have a firewall on. last i knew it wasnt there job to concern themselves with your firewall. If your smart enough to install and run steam. I think your smart enough to know if your firewall is on.

I beg to differ - when you load Steam you'll more than likely get a firewall exception message. However, when you load a game (within Steam) the firewall exception is not yet set - and due to loading the game - the exception message is not shown.

p.s. I'm smart enough to know:

there = their
your = you're

So I'd hope the Steam programmers would be smart enough to sort the inclusion of games into the firewall exception for the average user that might not understand why they can't play online when they already set the firewall exception for Steam..

 

[gtd2000]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Why? Region encoding can?t retroactively disable multiple previous working DVDs without warning like Steam can.

Region encoding is established and known, unlike Steam?s retroactive ?policies?.

That's where I would have a problem - I don't have a problem if they make you aware of the product being region specific when you buy the product.

At the moment you can buy cheaper Steam games in Poland (part of the EU) so I'd assume if they banned the use of keys sold in the Polish market, used anywhere else in the EU they'd be breaking some sort of law..?

I've always had the opinion that if the software is cheap enough, people will be less likely to bootleg it. So it's better that somebody picks up a cheap licensed copy from another market rather than not buying the over-priced product in the home market..?

The majority of consumers will probably go for the easy (most expensive) option anyway.

 

[Zerohm]

Originally posted by: 4537256
Consoles ftw.

The console industry is headed in the same direction. It will probably be easier for them too because each of the big three has a proprietary service for their given console.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10253774-1.html