I WANT 3DFX BACK!!!!!!

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borealiss

Senior member
Jun 23, 2000
913
0
0
that's unfortunate then. nvidia produces one hell of a chip imo. hope you like your radeon, that should satisfy anybody's hunger for 3d.
 

Blackhawk2

Senior member
May 1, 2000
455
0
0
<<...Without a sizeable amount of overdraw...>>

And when isn't this the case? every game has overdraw, unless of course it has no textures at all. Typical overdraw these days is around 3 and in the future it will only get worse. We'll see what the Kyro2 brings to the table.
 

TravisBickle

Platinum Member
Dec 3, 2000
2,037
0
0
I was in a pc store and saw the voodoo 4500 for under 100. I looked at it carefully, since it was 1/3 off. but I didn't take it, despite it offering the cheapest fsaa solution. why? because it hardly offered any speed over the v3. the box was sitting next to a GTS...

Voodoo 4500... 333 megatexels/sec
GTS ddr 32mb... 1.6 gigatexels/sec

it was a no-brainer to avoid the voodoo, as it was 9 months too late a card. I don't believe that card has the power to use fsaa. also, it lacked even DVD software!!! I can't believe 3dfx.
the big problem with 3dfx was them always deciding what shouldn't matter for us customers, and getting it wrong.
 

Blackhawk2

Senior member
May 1, 2000
455
0
0
<<...the big problem with 3dfx was them always deciding what shouldn't matter for us customers, and getting it wrong...>>

Thats only partially correct when you consider 3dfx's Full Scene Anti-Aliasing. I wonder how 3dfx's T&amp;L would have compared to Nvidia's T&amp;L. But we'll never know now. Nvidia is more focused on making money than making good products, in the end its going to bite them in the @ss.

TravisBickle you might want to compare the Voodoo 5500 vs the Geforce2, your comparison is like comparing the original TNT to the Voodoo 5500.
 

TravisBickle

Platinum Member
Dec 3, 2000
2,037
0
0
I'm not sure it will bite them in the ass. they seem to have got it right. they reinvest a good amount of the royalties in R&amp;D and refining their drivers and let the masses of fab licensees competing against each other scrabble about to rush products to the market to get a piece of the pie. this looks efficient to me, in that nvidia only put capital into their intellectual product, which is what is leading the biz, not their ability to physically produce chips.
 

Blackhawk2

Senior member
May 1, 2000
455
0
0
A quote from pm in a recent thread about the NV20 having 60 million transistors:

<<60 million is correct AFAIK. It's a synthesized design. They used computers to autogenerate the schematics and auto-draw the mask. This makes for a faster design cycle than having most things hand-crafted (as in a CPU), but uses a lot more transistors. And, yes, I think it will suck a lot of juice.>>

A good example of Nvidia's haste to get a chip to market while creating a lesser quality product.

Sucking &quot;a lot of juice&quot; has the potential of causing heat problems. We'll have to see how Nvidia handles that but so far I've been losing faith in Nvidia's ability to see past their own forehead .
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,000
126
BenSkywalker:

What purpose does making excuses for a complete POS motherboard serve? Look at PIV owners, they can't run a V5 in their mobo at all, should we be bashing 3dfx for this? Don't buy junk motherboards and you won't run into problems like this.

Now there you go again. What proof do you have that my motherboard is a POS or that it was causing the problems I had?

Does a bad motherboard cause the start menu to disappear?
Does a bad motherboard cause the video card to refuse to change resolutions unless I force it to do so with powerstrip?
Does a bad motherboard cause pixel trails to remain when dragging windows?
Does a bad motherboard cause poor image quality on a wide range of monitors?

If so, there's a hell of a lot of &quot;bad&quot; motherboards out there. And a hell of a lot of 3dfx cards running perfectly on &quot;bad&quot; motherboards, PCI or AGP.

nVidia's drivers are the the only POS around here. They're like steamroller. Either you hop on board and have a smooth ride or you get flattened. Either way the driver steamroller keeps on rolling with a total disregard for the users.

nVidia's goals are to have the highest scores in Quake 3 and 3DMark. Nothing else matters.

It is ignorant to bash either nVidia or 3dfx because of compatibility problems with out of spec motherboards. Always buy quality, and you won't have a problem.

It's ignorant to make up excuses for every single problem nVidia's boards have. Problems which no other manufacturer seems to have.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
&quot;Does a bad motherboard cause the start menu to disappear?
Does a bad motherboard cause the video card to refuse to change resolutions unless I force it to do so with powerstrip?
Does a bad motherboard cause pixel trails to remain when dragging windows?
Does a bad motherboard cause poor image quality on a wide range of monitors?&quot;


Yes on every count, you can even add a whole bunch of additional problems to those.

Why do you think there are thousands and thousands of people that don't have a single problem running the exact same drivers you are using?

Why is it that there is documentation about the problematic AGP slot in your computer?

&quot;It's ignorant to make up excuses for every single problem nVidia's boards have. Problems which no other manufacturer seems to have.&quot;

What about the Pentium4 and Voodoo5?????

That indicate that 3dfx has terrible drivers because the card won't fit in the AGP slot??? Check the thread where you asked which card to get, I suggested the Radeon, not anything from nVidia. Why don't other cards have the same problem??? V5 and the PIV and the Radeon and the KX133 to name one from the other two players.
 

chuckieland

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2000
3,148
0
0
first of all
driver and AGP slot is totally different thing
driver is the software that run the Hardware
AGP is a form of Hardware.

second, v5500 does fit in the AGP slot in the P4 motherboard
the problem is the voltage on the AGP slot.

so you are the one that need to do some research first
 

Soccerman

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,378
0
0
Are you talking about the game you linked to? Well, from looking at the screenshots the visuals are quite drab. Lousy texturing, the models aren't very well done although there are some nice particle effects/explosions. If you are thinking that a deferred will help you much, I wouldn't hold your breath. From looking at the screenshots it looks like this game will have maybe 2X, if that, overdraw the overwhelming majority of the time. Without a sizeable amount of overdraw the KyroII is likely to get manhandled by pretty much any other board that is current when it launches. This may not be the case, but I'm hearing 166MHZ core clock, unless there are some serious changes from the Kyro1 then it simply won't be competitive particularly not in a game like the one you linked to.

the game isn't THAT much better (which was why I was kind of questioning the polygon count).. in fact, what impressed me the most were the explosions (so you were right .

I'm not saying a Kyro 2 would really benefit from that kind of game, it's just, I want a Kyro 2 for ALL games...

besides, games like that one aren't that Video card intensive, correct? I've always noticed that Space/Flight sim games have been pretty slow overall, (if you ask me) probably becuase of low CPU speed.. I can get the Original Descent Freespace (great game) to slow down to the speed at which I begin to see choppiness (my eyes aren't that good, I see it around 15 FPS). of course, I've not played computers that run at >60fps constantly, so I'm used to choppiness..

as for its features, we've all heard rumors I guess. we'll have to wait and see..
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Blackhawk2
And exactly how do you know 3dfx and ATI arent doing the exact same thing?
You're bashing nVidia an awful lot for things that you know very little about.

And BFG, you must be doing something wrong if you have so many problems.
#4 of your list is 50/50 nVidia's and the big OEM's fault IMO.
Its nvidia's fault for not having stricter specs for the GF designs.
And its Creative's, Asus' etc fault for going cheap on the filters.

Like I said, I've used a myriad of cards, both 3Dfx and nVidia, and not had a single problem that I havent been able to solve within 5 minutes, the only problem I ever had that I didnt manage to solve was with my first V3, which caused some flickering in some games, but it didnt really bother me that much so never cared much.

And as for people saying nVidia invents needs for us with useless features etc.
What if nVidia would have never included T&amp;L and Dot3 BM on the GF.
Do you think any developers would have been using it by now, do you think Giant would have looked the way it does?
Somehow I doubt it, if noone has a feature, no developer will use it, someone has to get the ball rolling, but 3Dfx kept getting in the way of the ball instead during their last years.
 

gregor1

Junior Member
Jun 30, 2000
23
0
0
I've been running a Voodoo 3 up until 2 days ago. I went down to my local computer store and the Voodoo 5 had been reduced from £240 down to £90. I've always been a 3dfx fan and owned a V2 and V3 and always wanted a V5. I know the V5 isn't as fast as the Geforce 2 but somehow it's got a special charm to me. It appeals to me more than the Geforce 2. I was going to wait a bit for the next generation of cards but at £90 I couldn't resist it. After 2 days of playing F1 2000 on it I absolutely love it. FSAA is the answer to racing game fans prayers. The road up agead isn't a jaggy mess anymore. The other thing I noticed was how much better the textures looked in the game. They're are alot of big textures and they were scaled down by the Voodoo 3. They look so crisp now. As for 32-bit colour - I can't tell the difference. i just leave it on 16-bit. I do believe that was alot of hype by nvidia back in the TNT2 days. I know the support of Voodoo 5 from nvidia is going to be tiny (the 3dfx site is already down), but I'm still extremely pleased with card. I will miss 3dfx alot and if ever I become a billionaire I will revive the 3dfx name and release a Voodoo 6.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76


<< if ever I become a billionaire I will revive the 3dfx name and release a Voodoo 6 >>


You'll have to ask nVidia then, cause they own both names(Voodoo and 3dfx)
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
Didn't have much time last nite to reply, now I can get to some points I wanted to cover.

BFG

My assupmption on your comments on 2D quality were the issues you were having with 640x480 16 color 60HZ, if that is not the case then no, that wouldn't be a mobo caused issue. Everything else you list I have seen on a GF DDR on one of my POS mobos, an old SS7 Soyo SY5EMA. Additional problems, not waking up from sleep mode, entire windows leaving massive screen corruption making the system unuseable, constant hard locks and crashes, icons refusing to do anything when clicked on, I could keep going.

None of these problems were had with my TNT, but were when I placed my GF DDR in. From there I moved to a mobo I knew had a POS AGP slot, the Asus K7M. Again, most of the problems you are having were also had by myself until I dropped it to AGP 1X. It was clearly the fault of my mobo and its' sh!tty AGP slot, not nVidia's. I ran the same board in a BH6 and it is currently operating in a K7TPro2A flawlessly. You need a clean power supply to the slot, and an adequate one, for any board that utilizes the AGP slot(instead of just plugging in to it). None of these issues were caused by nVidia, they were from sub par mobos(Soyo) or at the very least crap AGP slots(Asus).

I don't think 3dfx should be blamed for the PIV issues. It isn't any vid cards company duty to make sure that all mobos conform to industry standard specs(well, nVidia will be responsible for their own mobos).

Blackhawk2-

&quot;And when isn't this the case?&quot;

Do yourself a favor and click on the link to look at the game we were talking about. Then explain where the overdraw is. In most of the screenshots there is no overdraw for the majority of the screen, just a background.

&quot;Typical overdraw these days is around 3 and in the future it will only get worse.&quot;

Says who? You don't think software developers are using their own techniques to deal with this? In the future, eight pass texturing and the likes is what makes boards more sensitive to overdraw, not that the actual amount will increase. It is possible, but to date nothing I have seen supports this notion.

&quot;We'll see what the Kyro2 brings to the table.&quot;

Of course we will.

&quot;Thats only partially correct when you consider 3dfx's Full Scene Anti-Aliasing. I wonder how 3dfx's T&amp;L would have compared to Nvidia's T&amp;L.&quot;

So they had one feature that everyone else does too.... what?? There implementation is a bit better then the competition. They lose out in trilinear and anisotropic just looking at the basics, they don't even offer it in any multitextured games. Having an edge in one feature negates being late with every other one for the last two and a half years??

&quot;Nvidia is more focused on making money than making good products, in the end its going to bite them in the @ss.&quot;

Why don't you, since you know so much about 3D technology, talk to SGI, the founder of the overwhelming majority of principles we use for 3D right now, about how nVidia doesn't make quality products. Why don't you tell them that nVidia's products aren't good enough to use for a gaming card so they simply can't be good enough for professional 3D animation and CAD workstations. While your at it, you better call up Pixar and tell them to send back the large batch of workstations that they ordered to help them continue to push CGI forward using nVidia based hardware. Since you know so much, certainly they should all listen to you, right?

&quot;A good example of Nvidia's haste to get a chip to market while creating a lesser quality product.&quot;

You will inform SGI and Pixar that they are using low quality hardware right? They seem to be under the impression that it is great, but what the he!! do they know about 3D?

&quot;A good example of Nvidia's haste to get a chip to market while creating a lesser quality product.&quot;

Huh? WTF does transistor count have to do with the price of tea in China? The 486DX has a he!! of a lot less transistors then a Duron. Thunderbird or PIII/PIV so it must be a lot higher quality product, right? Your logic here.

&quot;Sucking &quot;a lot of juice&quot; has the potential of causing heat problems. We'll have to see how Nvidia handles that but so far I've been losing faith in Nvidia's ability to see past their own forehead&quot;

The NV20 uses LESS power then the V5 5500, as in, not as much. The NV20 produces LESS heat then the V5 5500. Who couldn't see where? As a matter of fact, the NV20 uses less power then the NV10 did, are you saying that nVidia should take the time and care to significantly increase their power useage and heat production as 3dfx did from the V3 to the V5?

Soccerman

&quot;the game isn't THAT much better (which was why I was kind of questioning the polygon count).. in fact, what impressed me the most were the explosions (so you were right .&quot;

The game looks very poor compared to Giants to me. If you want to see a good example of what PC gaming can look like right now, check out some reviews with screenshots(or the game itself if your rig can handle it). It makes Quake3/UT and the like look seriously dated.

&quot;I'm not saying a Kyro 2 would really benefit from that kind of game, it's just, I want a Kyro 2 for ALL games...&quot;

Unless the KyroII is in fact a new part that shares very little, if anything, with the original outside of the name, or is running much faster then 166MHZ it will not be anywhere close to the NV20.

&quot;besides, games like that one aren't that Video card intensive, correct? I've always noticed that Space/Flight sim games have been pretty slow overall, (if you ask me) probably becuase of low CPU speed&quot;

True, they are not video card intensive.

<rant mode> You know that they could easily be so if developers would exploit the fact that they were CPU limited. They could use extremely complex models by offloading them to the T&amp;L unit(sticking with static vertices) and throw out every texturing trick in the book along with a barrage of every particle effect they can pull off as the CPU will still be dealing with game code and you won't be vid card limited. Your CPU is choking while your vid card is &quot;twiddling its' thumbs&quot;.</rant mode>
 

KarlHungus

Senior member
Nov 16, 1999
638
0
0
BlackHawk2 -

<<...Without a sizeable amount of overdraw...>>

And when isn't this the case? every game has overdraw, unless of course it has no textures at all. Typical overdraw these days is around 3 and in the future it will only get worse. We'll see what the Kyro2 brings to the table.

Overdraw and texturing are two completely different entities, though they both can chew up fillrate. A flat shaded (no textures) scene could have massive overdraw. Overdraw is when a triangle is completely occluded by the remaining scene, but is rendered anyway. Multiple textures can eat up additional fillrate by texturing the occluded triangles, but that's beside the point.

Also, I really don't think there is a &quot;typical&quot; overdraw - it all depends on the game, in other words Q3 has a ton more overdraw than a flight sim. Though in the flight sime there isn't much call for fillrate anyway.
 

Soccerman

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,378
0
0
Huh? WTF does transistor count have to do with the price of tea in China? The 486DX has a he!! of a lot less transistors then a Duron. Thunderbird or PIII/PIV so it must be a lot higher quality product, right? Your logic here.

it has to do with the fact that nVidia did not spend time on their chip, instead they just threw transistors at the problem. from what I heard, they basically just used the Software to design the chip, without optimization, or anything like that, to reduce Transistor numbers.

however, you can bet that that's one of the things that they'll be working on for the NV25 (the 2nd iteration of the NV2x series).
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Soccerman, why does that bother you?
As long as it works without any serious complications(like generating enough heat to increase case temp etc), why should anyone care?
If what Ben says about power consumption/heat generation is true, there's no problem IMO, they can use a billion transistors, as long as it doesnt get extremely hot, and as long as it works, Im happy.
 

bluemax

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2000
7,182
0
0
Ben Skywalker

<< The NV20 uses LESS power then the V5 5500, as in, not as much. The NV20 produces LESS heat then the V5 5500. >>



You have one then? Just how do you know this? Sure we have reason to believe it will be true, but it's not released yet, and can't prove anything....
You know something everyone else doesn't?
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
Soccerman-

&quot;it has to do with the fact that nVidia did not spend time on their chip, instead they just threw transistors at the problem. from what I heard, they basically just used the Software to design the chip, without optimization, or anything like that, to reduce Transistor numbers.&quot;

That is a good point. You know there once was this company that decided to spend time on their chip designs, 3dfx, every heard of 'em?

If you spend too much time on chip design you are dead, period. Moore's law exists for a reason, why wouldn't any one use it to their advantage? Combine the transistors in the 3dfx part that would have been competitive, on a chip level, with the NV20. Both Rampage rasterizers and the Sage unit, add up all the transistor counts for all three chips and compare to the NV20, doesn't look so bad anymore does it?

bluemax-

Give it about 4-5 weeks and you will have your answer.
 

Blackhawk2

Senior member
May 1, 2000
455
0
0
<<...Do yourself a favor and click on the link to look at the game we were talking about. Then explain where the overdraw is. In most of the screenshots there is no overdraw for the majority of the screen, just a background...>>

BenSkywalker, whenever that ship passes infront of the planet there is overdraw, not much but it is there. Maybe you should look up the definition, before decidedly bashing people.

<<...You're bashing nVidia an awful lot for things that you know very little about...>>

Sunner, see my reply to BenSkywalker. Ya it looks like your the one bashing me when you know very little about how it works. Oh and Sunner show me a game where Nvidia can pull their advertised 25 million polygons per second with a Geforce2 and then call me a liar.

Oh ya and I guess pm was full of sh*t when he said this too eh?:

<<60 million is correct AFAIK. It's a synthesized design. They used computers to autogenerate the schematics and auto-draw the mask. This makes for a faster design cycle than having most things hand-crafted (as in a CPU), but uses a lot more transistors. And, yes, I think it will suck a lot of juice.>>

KarlHungus, no sh*t sherlok, I meant to say with no textures or shading, sorry for not being extremely explicit. I guess with some people you must make it so clear they can't mistakenly flame you.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
&quot;As long as it works without any serious complications(like generating enough heat to increase case temp etc), why should anyone care?&quot;

That's what I used to say about the dual processors and the power supply for the V5. But, the nVidia fans didn't agree with me. Now when nVidia does something similar, it makes sense.
 

Blackhawk2

Senior member
May 1, 2000
455
0
0
<<...Both Rampage rasterizers and the Sage unit, add up all the transistor counts for all three chips and compare to the NV20, doesn't look so bad anymore does it?...>>

Ya and compare both those designs to the Gigapixel GP-1 (3 million transistors) and it looks like a real sloppy design.

For the record I have never had any vested interests in any of the graphic card companies. Can you say the same BenSkywalker? I've often wondered why you defend Nvidia so adamantly. Care to spill the beans?
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
Blackhawk2-

&quot;BenSkywalker, whenever that ship passes infront of the planet there is overdraw, not much but it is there. Maybe you should look up the definition, before decidedly bashing people.&quot;

If I want to &quot;decidedly bash you&quot;, I will. So far, I am working under the impression that you are simply trolling as I don't believe anyone that reads these boards could possibly be as stupid as you sound when discussing video cards. Now onto what you said-

&quot;And when isn't this the case? every game has overdraw, unless of course it has no textures at all. Typical overdraw these days is around 3 and in the future it will only get worse.&quot;

My quote-

Do yourself a favor and click on the link to look at the game we were talking about. Then explain where the overdraw is. In most of the screenshots there is no overdraw for the majority of the screen, just a background.

Now explain exactly what portion of that was not completely accurate. Why don't you try quoting me and pointing out exactly what I said that was incorrect. I know that there is some overdraw, the point is that it isn't nearly enough to give a &quot;tiler&quot; the edge with a fraction of the raw fill of a tradtional.

&quot;Oh and Sunner show me a game where Nvidia can pull their advertised 25 million polygons per second with a Geforce2 and then call me a liar.&quot;

Let's see here. 3dfx claims 667MPixels for the V5, well lets take a look at that number shall we?

1600x1200 @347FPS ~=667Mpixels. So, according to you, the Voodoo5 should be pushing well over three hundred frames per second in a game at 1600x1200. Name one.

Looking at a far more efficient part in the Kyro, we see a MPixel value of 250.

1600x1200 @128FPS ~=250MPixels. SO, according to you, the Kyro should be pushing well over one hundred frames per second in a game at 1600x1200. Name one. This is the super efficient closest to its' peak architecture that so many are raving about, give an example in game where it is close to its' theoretical peak.

Peak != Real world.

BTW- What did SGI and Pixar say to you when you told them in your infinite wisdom that they were using low quality hardware?

&quot;<<60 million is correct AFAIK. It's a synthesized design. They used computers to autogenerate the schematics and auto-draw the mask. This makes for a faster design cycle than having most things hand-crafted (as in a CPU), but uses a lot more transistors. And, yes, I think it will suck a lot of juice.>>&quot;

Six month/one year design cycle versus five year design cycle. nVidia has already proven they are doing things the better way in terms of product cycles in a business sense, and to date &quot;Moore's&quot; law has been enough to deal with the issues of die space. The more important aspect of course is that it works, who cares how it works as long as it does. This line of argument is a dead ringer for the Mac loyalists claiming that the G4 is a better chip because it uses less power and has a comparitively low transistor count, ignoring performance.
 

Blackhawk2

Senior member
May 1, 2000
455
0
0
<<...Then explain where the overdraw is...>>

I already answered that one.

<<...I am working under the impression that you are simply trolling as I don't believe anyone that reads these boards could possibly be as stupid as you sound when discussing video cards...>>

BenSkywalker, I never insulted you, is this your intelligence shining through?

You forgot to answer my question:

<<...For the record I have never had any vested interests in any of the graphic card companies. Can you say the same BenSkywalker? I've often wondered why you defend Nvidia so adamantly. Care to spill the beans?>>
 
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