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skulkingghost

Golden Member
Jan 4, 2006
1,660
1
76
Originally posted by: barfo
How do you justify the millions of people that don't have a chance for salvation, just because they weren't born in a place where they would be taught to worship your god?

Is it god's fault that all these people are condemning themselves? or is it the humanity for not embracing your religion without question? or maybe it's their own fault for not embracing the foreign true faith, despite what their parents and grandparents taught them?

In explaining what happens at judgement, it?s not my intention to condemn anyone, but to explain the hope that is spelled out clearly in the bible. The hope of living a life forever in the presence of a loving God.

The only way to BE SURE that you?ll go to heaven is to turn away from your sinful life and turn to Christ Jesus. It is the only way TO BE SURE of salvation.

But in this post we?re dealing with those who have not heard and therefore have not rejected Jesus Christ.

NOTE: In these passages the people who symbolize not having heard about Jesus are called ?gentiles?. The people who symbolize having heard and who have been challenged are called ?Jews?. It?s symbolic? an illustration. (If you are Jewish, it is not my intention to offend you.)

In Romans 1 the bible establishes that everyone knows there is a God. Essentially they only have to look outside their window to know that there is a God.

For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities?his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn?t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. - Romans 1:18-21

So that establishes clearly that everyone has an idea that there is a God. Even if they are born deep inside the amazon jungle and have never heard of Jesus, they know there is a God.

Now we need to know if everyone (even if they have never heard of Jesus) will go through a judgement. Let?s skip past the passages that speak of people who KNOW that God is good and have CHOSEN to reject Him. Let?s skip to Romans 2:5-16

For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done.

So that?s pretty clear. Many many times in the bible it speaks of a judgement where people are judged according to their works and actions. Let me take a moment to clearly state that salvation doesn?t come by works, salvation comes from God exposing Himself to us and we naturally respond to Him.

He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning?for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.

This passage and many others in Romans 1 and 2 point to some basic truths:

* God will judge all people according to what they have done
* bad news for those who live for themselves (selfishness)
* good news for those who do what is good (loving others)

But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good?for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

So both groups (jews and gentiles) will be judged and those who do good in both groups will receive glory and honor. That is clear.

That leads us to ask? what is good and bad? Can we know what is bad (or good) if we have never heard about Jesus?

God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God?s written law ? Those who obey the law will be declared right in God?s sight.

That seems rough? to be judged EVEN if they don?t have God?s written law. Written. Hmmm? is there something else? If you can know God by the world around you - without ever actually meeting Him, then can you know the law without ever reading it written down?

Even when Gentiles, who do not have God?s written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God?s law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right.

So Gentiles who have not heard are to be judged on how they live their lives, according to the law that God has written within all of us.

The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone?s secret life. This is my message. - Romans 2:5-16

The ?secret life? statement (above) refers to our thoughts and our conscience and generally to our inner life. To find out more about the law that is ?written in our hearts?, you can read about what Jesus says about loving others. He said that when we love others we keep the full law. It is the central theme of Christianity.


//I took this off a catholic talk forum. But if you ever need to talk or have any more personal questions I can answer them. I am studying theology and working as a youth ministry for multiple churches in my area, so I am used to it, just pm me or make a post!
 

DefDC

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2003
1,858
1
81
As a kid, I grew away from Catholicism and started researching other religions. You start finding similar themes in most major religions and even in civilized law. I decided that organized religion wasn't for me, but I was drawn toward spiritual philosophy. It seems most major religions usually HAD a base in common sense and the betterment of man, but felt the need to inject personal opinion, money schemes, and power grabs which tended to distort the core concepts. There were too many contradictions in all major religions for my tastes. I noticed RELIGION seems to drown out the direct communication from God that occurs, to most people, naturally.

I've learned, for most problems, you only need to listen and observe. Answers will occur naturally after introspection. As all religions are based on faith, I have more confidence in the gifts which God have me directly, than blindly following the potential errors of others. Be careful of anyone who claims to have the "absolute truth". (Even me!) Anyone should be able to admit they are running on THEIR BELIEFS. Big difference.

I'm not saying not to listen or learn from others, but inflect on the information you gather. Gather from as many sources and opposing viewpoints as you can. As with any debate, if you don't have enough knowledge to argue for the other side, you don't have enough info.

If the Bible says "An eye for an eye" AND "Turn the other cheek", it's up to YOU to decide what is right. (And now the floodgates will open with other people insisting that one, or the other, or both, are the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

Inflect. Which is correct? What is God telling YOU?

Back to the OP's original question. Is God going to punish people with no knowledge of obscure rules set by man? What do you think?
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: barfo
How do you justify the millions of people that don't have a chance for salvation, just because they weren't born in a place where they would be taught to worship your god?

Is it god's fault that all these people are condemning themselves? or is it the humanity for not embracing your religion without question? or maybe it's their own fault for not embracing the foreign true faith, despite what their parents and grandparents taught them?

Not all religions offer "salvation". That is a Judeo-Christian tradition. Going by what happened to the regular Egyptians during the 10 plagues, Mose's god does not care.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,720
1,502
136
Originally posted by: FDF12389
Originally posted by: Crono
Originally posted by: barfo
I'm not claiming to be better than god,and I agree he'd see things more clearly. The problem is, which religion is the true one? cause all of them preach different things.
I was raised a catholic, should I just abide by it and brace myself in case Allah turns out to be the real god and I realize I'm doomed when I die?

It's not about you choosing your god, though, it's about God choosing you. Read Romans when you have the time. If you are aware of your own sinfulness, you believe in the God of the Bible and that He sent His Son, Jesus, to die in your place, and you repent (means to turn away from, to go on a different path) of your sins, you will be saved.

Salvation comes by the grace of God, through the hearing of God's word and faith in Him. Not by works, not by money, not by any other means.

Just a quick question for you, I am not trying to troll, I'm jw.

From studying the greek orgin of repent, it seems, as you pointed out, that it means to change your ways, even though most people think it means more along the lines of confess.

So lets say someone beleives in Christ, changes his ways from Y to X, according to the bible he is saved. (Baring those that believe baptism is required, just for sake of argument)

Now what about a man who has never heard the word but has lived life X anyways? What happens then?

The Y to X change, as you put it, can only be initiated by God, and it is only done by the Word of God. In John 3, Jesus says to Nicodemus that a man can become "born again" only by the water (representative of the Word of God) and the Spirit.

In the Old Testament, Abram, Isaac, Jacbob, Moses, judges, Samuel, the prophets, all had an encounter with God's Word (most of the time by way of the Angel of the LORD or by direct revelation of God's Word) that led them to the knowledge of God and a change in their life.

Abram was just some guy leading his large and rich household in the heart of Babylonia, in a city called Ur (no, not Dagoth) until God called him to leave everything behind and to journey to a land that God would give to him and his descendants.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Chist Himself was, and is, the Word of God (see John 1) incarnate, sent to redeem His people. God always used His Word to bring salvation to the ones he predestined. I could give you dozens (probably hundreds) of references that show that God chose some to salvation ("Jacob I loved, Esau I hated") and used His Word as the agent to bring them to the knowledge of Him and to faith in Him.

 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Do you people realize how much some of you sound like lord of the rings fans?
 

FDF12389

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2005
5,234
7
76
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Originally posted by: barfo
How do you justify the millions of people that don't have a chance for salvation, just because they weren't born in a place where they would be taught to worship your god?

Is it god's fault that all these people are condemning themselves? or is it the humanity for not embracing your religion without question? or maybe it's their own fault for not embracing the foreign true faith, despite what their parents and grandparents taught them?

Not all religions offer "salvation". That is a Judeo-Christian tradition. Going by what happened to the regular Egyptians during the 10 plagues, Mose's god does not care.

We have a reply by Buddha himself in a ATOT religion thread.


We must be getting out of control! :Q
 

FDF12389

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2005
5,234
7
76
Originally posted by: Crono
Originally posted by: FDF12389
Originally posted by: Crono
Originally posted by: barfo
I'm not claiming to be better than god,and I agree he'd see things more clearly. The problem is, which religion is the true one? cause all of them preach different things.
I was raised a catholic, should I just abide by it and brace myself in case Allah turns out to be the real god and I realize I'm doomed when I die?

It's not about you choosing your god, though, it's about God choosing you. Read Romans when you have the time. If you are aware of your own sinfulness, you believe in the God of the Bible and that He sent His Son, Jesus, to die in your place, and you repent (means to turn away from, to go on a different path) of your sins, you will be saved.

Salvation comes by the grace of God, through the hearing of God's word and faith in Him. Not by works, not by money, not by any other means.

Just a quick question for you, I am not trying to troll, I'm jw.

From studying the greek orgin of repent, it seems, as you pointed out, that it means to change your ways, even though most people think it means more along the lines of confess.

So lets say someone beleives in Christ, changes his ways from Y to X, according to the bible he is saved. (Baring those that believe baptism is required, just for sake of argument)

Now what about a man who has never heard the word but has lived life X anyways? What happens then?

The Y to X change, as you put it, can only be initiated by God, and it is only done by the Word of God. In John 3, Jesus says to Nicodemus that a man can become "born again" only by the water (representative of the Word of God) and the Spirit.

In the Old Testament, Abram, Isaac, Jacbob, Moses, judges, Samuel, the prophets, all had an encounter with God's Word (most of the time by way of the Angel of the LORD or by direct revelation of God's Word) that led them to the knowledge of God and a change in their life.

Abram was just some guy leading his large and rich household in the heart of Babylonia, in a city called Ur (no, not Dagoth) until God called him to leave everything behind and to journey to a land that God would give to him and his descendants.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Chist Himself was, and is, the Word of God (see John 1) incarnate, sent to redeem His people. God always used His Word to bring salvation to the ones he predestined. I could give you dozens (probably hundreds) of references that show that God chose some to salvation ("Jacob I loved, Esau I hated") and used His Word as the agent to bring them to the knowledge of Him and to faith in Him.

Thanks, I wondered how Christians landed on that issue ever since I learned the meaning of the word repent.
 

polarmystery

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2005
3,888
8
81
The problem with religion is that it is up to interpretation thus giving free reign to people to do what they want in the name of whomever they feel like at any given time.
 

meltdown75

Lifer
Nov 17, 2004
37,548
7
81
I'm not religious, but allegedly I'm on the "papal payroll" and the "biggest bibilical cheerleader" on this forum.

Gimme a !
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,670
6,246
126
God: To you I give Life and Free Will!
Me: Sweet, I'm gonna go do...
God: Wait wait, there's a Catch...
Me: Catch?
God: Ya, Do what is written here, here, and here. Don't do what's written in the rest of this Book.
Me: WTF? What happens if I don't?
God: I torture you for Eternity.
Me: :Q :| You're an asshole.
God: pop, ceases to exist
 

cronos

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
9,380
26
101
Originally posted by: barfo
I'm not claiming to be better than god,and I agree he'd see things more clearly. The problem is, which religion is the true one? cause all of them preach different things.
I was raised a catholic, should I just abide by it and brace myself in case Allah turns out to be the real god and I realize I'm doomed when I die?

hint: there's only one God

 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,476
17,023
136
Originally posted by: cronos
Originally posted by: barfo
I'm not claiming to be better than god,and I agree he'd see things more clearly. The problem is, which religion is the true one? cause all of them preach different things.
I was raised a catholic, should I just abide by it and brace myself in case Allah turns out to be the real god and I realize I'm doomed when I die?

hint: there's only one God

Sez you
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: cronos
Originally posted by: barfo
I'm not claiming to be better than god,and I agree he'd see things more clearly. The problem is, which religion is the true one? cause all of them preach different things.
I was raised a catholic, should I just abide by it and brace myself in case Allah turns out to be the real god and I realize I'm doomed when I die?

hint: there's only one God

hint: Recheck your count, you over counted by one.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: skulkingghost
Originally posted by: So
Do you people realize how much some of you sound like lord of the rings fans?

Jrr Tolkein was Catholic

So, did frodo die on a cross for my sins too?
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,720
1,502
136
Originally posted by: jonks
Explain how the stories of Jesus are nearly identical to the Egyptian god Horus, who was worshiped a thousand years before Jesus was "born"

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

Gee, lot o coinkidinks there, eh?


Selective list, and views/interpretations of Horus changed over a long period of time. Plus, I'm guessing a lot of that is just made up, and there is no official account of who Horus was. If you think otherwise, then please give me names of the source(s) for Horus mythology, not just some selective table.

Also, it's likely that the Hebrew people within Egypt influenced their beliefs in some way. Hebrew beliefs remained consistent after Pentateuch was written (Moses era), while Egyptian beliefs continuied to shift and change. The polytheism of the Egyptians was much more open to changing intrepretation and redefinition of who their gods were.
 

cronos

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
9,380
26
101
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: cronos
Originally posted by: barfo
I'm not claiming to be better than god,and I agree he'd see things more clearly. The problem is, which religion is the true one? cause all of them preach different things.
I was raised a catholic, should I just abide by it and brace myself in case Allah turns out to be the real god and I realize I'm doomed when I die?

hint: there's only one God

hint: Recheck your count, you over counted by one.

no. there is one true God.

ask the Cylons if you don't believe me :|
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
God: To you I give Life and Free Will!
Me: Sweet, I'm gonna go do...
God: Wait wait, there's a Catch...
Me: Catch?
God: Ya, Do what is written here, here, and here. Don't do what's written in the rest of this Book.
Me: WTF? What happens if I don't?
God: I torture you for Eternity.
Me: :Q :| You're an asshole.
God: pop, ceases to exist

This certainly explains your simpleton nature.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
36
91
Originally posted by: SmoochyTX
Originally posted by: barfo
How do you justify the millions of people that don't have a chance for salvation, just because they weren't born in a place where they would be taught to worship your god?

Is it god's fault that all these people are condemning themselves? or is it the humanity for not embracing your religion without question? or maybe it's their own fault for not embracing the foreign true faith, despite what their parents and grandparents taught them?

I like pie.

Me too.

ZV
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,476
17,023
136
Originally posted by: skulkingghost
Originally posted by: So
Do you people realize how much some of you sound like lord of the rings fans?

Jrr Tolkein was Catholic

I have examined this statement for relevance, and found very little.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: Crono
Originally posted by: jonks
Explain how the stories of Jesus are nearly identical to the Egyptian god Horus, who was worshiped a thousand years before Jesus was "born"

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

Gee, lot o coinkidinks there, eh?


Selective list, and views/interpretations of Horus changed over a long period of time. Plus, I'm guessing a lot of that is just made up, and there is no official account of who Horus was. If you think otherwise, then please give me names of the source(s) for Horus mythology, not just some selective table.

Also, it's likely that the Hebrew people within Egypt influenced their beliefs in some way. Hebrew beliefs remained consistent after Pentateuch was written (Moses era), while Egyptian beliefs continuied to shift and change. The polytheism of the Egyptians was much more open to changing intrepretation and redefinition of who their gods were.

did you bother scrolling down to the reference list? Horus was being worshipped for a thousand years when jesus was born. His worshippers recognized his birthday as Dec 25, his dad was Joseph, and he raised Lazarus from the dead. Selective list my ass. And if you take the bible at its word, then you have a lot of chutzpah claiming that something about Horus was made up.

THe bible was writen hundreds of years later from a combination of whole cloth fabrication, previous messianic legends, and word of mouth generations separated from any possibly actual events along the lines of "the romans crucified some guy who thought he was god or something"

Originally posted by: cronos
no. there is one true God.

ask the Cylons if you don't believe me :|

It doesn't like to be called that.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: cronos
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: cronos
Originally posted by: barfo
I'm not claiming to be better than god,and I agree he'd see things more clearly. The problem is, which religion is the true one? cause all of them preach different things.
I was raised a catholic, should I just abide by it and brace myself in case Allah turns out to be the real god and I realize I'm doomed when I die?

hint: there's only one God

hint: Recheck your count, you over counted by one.

no. there is one true God.

ask the Cylons if you don't believe me :|

Fiction begets fiction, this has all happened before and it will happen again.
 
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