Illegals Dying in Arizona

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: judasmachine
Besides as far as I'm concerned you pale faced tyrants are illegal immigrants too.

Sorry, not me. I was born here Tanto.

I'm just making light. Besides, I'm no Tanto. (look it up)

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
I'm all for putting up a huge wall or putting troops on the border. It is a HUGE problem for people living down there.

So you don't think my idea of a Southern United States would work?

The "Berlin" style wall is the other alternative but what about the money flow???

 

[Zebo]

Alex- . I 1099 most of my subs who then hire whomever they wish. They give me SS or Federal tax ID's or I won't pay them.

Everybody pays taxes

 

[Zebo]

When My parents came here from Sweden with $90 in pocket they worked illegal too. Times were much more accomidating and less xenophobic back then. They did'nt even have a visa when they came in 1961 and were citizens a year later. Good luck with that today. It's impossbile to get US citizenships or greencards. Even if you marry an american the police state come inside you house for three years to make sure you're "really married" before granting green cards. This country has a hard edge about nowadays it I don't know if it's for the better.

 

[Rainsford]

If illegal immigration is the problem, why not make it easier to legally immigrate? Obviously these people wouldn't be dying trying to get in if there was an easy, legal way to do it that actually worked. Unless the whole anti-illegal immigration stance is just a cover for not wanting Mexicans in this country at all, what is the problem with making legal immigration easier?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
If illegal immigration is the problem, why not make it easier to legally immigrate? Obviously these people wouldn't be dying trying to get in if there was an easy, legal way to do it that actually worked. Unless the whole anti-illegal immigration stance is just a cover for not wanting Mexicans in this country at all, what is the problem with making legal immigration easier?

It's politcally a hot potato. Too many xenophobes. So the governemnt and employers simply engage in "civil disobedience" with a) lack of enforcement b) hiring c) lack of I9 checking system.

Edit: there is some creedance to what Alex says about employers and thier customers loving obiedeint cheap labor too.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Zebo
When My parents came here from Sweden with $90 in pocket they worked illegal too. Times were much more accomidating and less xenophobic back then. They did'nt even have a visa when they came in 1961 and were citizens a year later. Good luck with that today. It's impossbile to get US citizenships or greencards. Even if you marry an american the police state come inside you house for three years to make sure you're "really married" before granting green cards. This country has a hard edge about nowadays it I don't know if it's for the better.

Well its not quite as bad as all that, though things are more strict maybe now than they used to be. My wife is from Taiwan and we were married in July 2003. I am a natural born American citizen. She came here and I met her as a student in 2000. It took her less than a year to get get her green card after we were married. We went for 1 interview with immigration officials. So far nobody has come to our home (at least that I know of ) to see if we were really married. Maybe since we filed taxes jointly they took that as good enough proof. I attribute it to clean, honest living and having nothing to hide. I think they will only investigate further if something seems out of place. . .Like if they had asked me my wifes parents names at the interview and I didn't know them. Usually I think if somebody has something to hide, it will show.

Now I'm not against skimming a little off the top if you're here legally. . .I think it is rediculous that the laws are such that if you are here as a student you can only work on campus to support yourself. I don't think that's fair and if you wanna get a little pay AS A STUDENT on the side to help get you through school that's one thing. . .At least if you're here on a student visa you are documented. I don't want to deny people the right to make a living. I just expect that they know how far its ok to bend the rules. . .what's acceptable limitations. By and large Americans are pretty relaxed and willing to look the other way about a lot of things. But that's provided you at least try and be subtle about it and know the limits. Illegal immigrants, however, are becoming a MAJOR problem and people cannot sit there and look the other way any more when something is so glaring and blatantly wrong.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: Zebo
When My parents came here from Sweden with $90 in pocket they worked illegal too. Times were much more accomidating and less xenophobic back then. They did'nt even have a visa when they came in 1961 and were citizens a year later. Good luck with that today. It's impossbile to get US citizenships or greencards. Even if you marry an american the police state come inside you house for three years to make sure you're "really married" before granting green cards. This country has a hard edge about nowadays it I don't know if it's for the better.

Well its not quite as bad as all that, though things are more strict maybe now than they used to be. My wife is from Taiwan and we were married in July 2003. I am a natural born American citizen. She came here and I met her as a student in 2000. It took her less than a year to get get her green card after we were married. We went for 1 interview with immigration officials. So far nobody has come to our home (at least that I know of ) to see if we were really married. Maybe since we filed taxes jointly they took that as good enough proof. I attribute it to clean, honest living and having nothing to hide. I think they will only investigate further if something seems out of place. . .Like if they had asked me my wifes parents names at the interview and I didn't know them. Usually I think if somebody has something to hide, it will show.

Would'nt surprise me if things were differnet for the mexicans. I just relating what I've been told on numerous occations.

 

[Zebo]

Illegal immigrants, however, are becoming a MAJOR problem and people cannot sit there and look the other way any more when something is so glaring and blatantly wrong.

What "major" problem is that? They all hustlers as far as I can tell. Especially compared to the natives, even like myself and my brothers who are first generation, whom I consider extremely lazy. Nessesity is the mother of invention and hard work.

 

[ToeJam13]

LINK

Republicans should hate illegal immigration because they're not white and tend to bring in petty crime.

Democrats should hate illegal immigration because they undercut unions and overburden saftey nets for the poor.

However...

Republican leaning coorporations like the cheap labor.

Democrats like that many of them tend to vote Democrat.

 

[Zebo]

I did'nt relize Illegal Aliens could vote for anything? Speaking of voting, this is one area, if Bush were smart, he'd grant asylum to 11 million illegals, most hispanic, which would definity endear Latinos the Republican party for a very long time.. Like Cubans in Florida.

Hillary getting elected? Only if she runs alone.

 

[episodic]

Why don't they send illegals back when we catch them? Go to enroll kids in school? No documentation - back to mexico. Go to apply for job - no documentation - back to mexico. Go to send money home - no docs - call police - back to mexico. Apply for food stamps - no documentation - back to mexico.

BTW it is total bull that illegals can send their kids to school here, get foodstamps here, and get free medical care here - total and complete bull.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Up until recently I thought that it was impossible to stop the flow of illegals accross the southern border due the length of that border and the depressed mexican economy.
However it appears there are only a few hundred miles of our southern border that is passable and the minute men proved that a small force could effectivly stop the flow.


That's Bullshit - the 'Minutepinheads' stopped the flow in a 20 mile stretch -
the crossings continued in areas slightly to the East and West of their campout.

Yes and only 10-15% of the souther border needs significant monitoring. This is a problem that can be solved.

 

[cwjerome]

I think the function most migrant workers perform is fairly important economically. This does not mean I'm willing to turn my head when people are getting shot up, ripped off, or dying in the desert. I'm not going to look away when they consume more resources then they contribute because of their illegal status. I can't ignore the fact that 1 million plus illegals flow into our country every year. It's a mockery. Not to be melodramatic, but what would other countries do in this situation? I have to believe that encouraging a mass exodus illegally into another nation is practically grounds for war. (before you get your knockers in your crack I'm not at all suggesting we go to war with Mexico)

I'm all for a rational worker program. I'm all for expediting the citizenship process. But neither will work worth a goddamn unless we can properly secure our own freakin border. In this day and age... get real :|

 

[Zebo]

What "problem" is that charrison. I've asked that in every thread like these and never gottn an answer. Everybody likes the illegals dispite what they say.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: charrison
Up until recently I thought that it was impossible to stop the flow of illegals accross the southern border due the length of that border and the depressed mexican economy.
However it appears there are only a few hundred miles of our southern border that is passable and the minute men proved that a small force could effectivly stop the flow.

We can put an end to it by going after the people and companies who break the law by employing them. If the government came down hard on their employers (jail time for executives, seizure and forfieture of assets) that would put an end to it.

We are nation of immigrants, but let them come through after propertly completely work and getting approved.

I know how you feel. It's feels uncomfortable to come out and say "we need to turn people away", but if we didn't our nation's population would probably over 1 billion right now and we'd have tremendous poverty as a result. The end result of a merger between the U.S. and the third world would be the destruction of the American middle class and a transformation of the nation into a third world country.

The Mexican people need to take up arms and clean house or at least vote for good politicians who would be willing to adopt a capitalist-leaning mixed economy as well as to control population growth. (It's not like the U.S., which gained 32.7 million people, or over 12% growth in the ten years from 1990-2000, has a good track record in that department.)

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
This has to be one of the most underrated issues of our time. It affects so many aspects, but I guess people just basically have said "the hell with it."

The problem is that neither political party wants to do anything about it for various reasons. It would probably be a huge winner for them if they did. (I read some commentary at www.VDare.com (a great site on immigration) which claimed that whenever the issue came up in the presidential elections, the public seemed to oppose immigration.)

The Republicans seem ensconced in the hands of the corporations that finance them, and businesses enjoy it when the labor pool increases, allowing them to pay poverty wages and to keep a larger share of the value of the act of production for their own profit. To some extent they buy into pro-capitalist dogma, but I'm not convinced that that is what is really driving them on this issue (and the issue of foreign outsourcing and work visas).

The Democrats in the meantime are moral altruists and feel badly for the poor people sneaking across the border. (I feel badly for these poor illegals too, but I place the economic interests of Americans first.) They also receive money from corporations. Being altruists, it's hard to come out and say, "Our policy is that Americans come first and that we should pursue the ratinal selfish economic interests of the American middle class." So, instead of doing that, they watch passively as the illegals swarm across the border and as Ameicans are displaced by foreign outsourcing and foreigners on H-1B and L-1 work visas.

Of course, the enemy is us. The American populace elected all of these fools and didn't require them to place the economic interests of Americans first. After our population has swelled to 500 million people (putting a large strain on our environment) and after we've merged, economically, with the billions of impoverished people in the third world, we will have a Third World America.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Migrant workers from Mexico and other South/Central American countries are coming here to do the work that Americans are either too lazy or proud to do.

Let's clarify this. Ameicans wouldn't do the job at all--for any price--or Americans don't want to do those kinds of jobs for poverty wages? Could you please elaborate for this? Would Americans do those jobs for $10-15/hour? Americans don't want to work formerly middle class construction jobs for middle class wages?

Economics teaches us that supply is relative to price point. So, you really should qualify what you say.

The issue is--would we be better off and wealthier if the costs of goods and services increased while at the same time the amount of unemployment and poverty decreased dramatically as well as the social costs of unemployment and poverty--or are we better off with the current situation, having large amounts of unemployment and poverty amongst the American people but with lower prices.

I'll gladly take 2% real unemployment, higher wages and higher prices any day. I think we'd all be wealthier overall.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Zebo

What Mexican terrrorists are there? show me last time a Mexican tried to blow up WTC?
Nope just the opposite. They come here work hard take jobs lazy whites and blacks won't take. A house would cost double if you used exlusive native labor. Same with groceries. Be careful for what you ask for.

As I said in my last post, there are different kinds of costs, both front-end and back-end. In a sense, wages and prices in a free market would be a zero-sum gain because everything has an objective value. However, the real issue is the total costs, both monetary and (often ignored) social costs. My theory is that by having rational protectionism our social costs would decrease dramatically (unemployment, underemployment, and all of the problems they create).

Another cost no one has mentioned as far as I've read in this thread is the costs of population growth. Did you know that the U.S. had a greater than 11% (not counting illegals) population growth during the 10 years from 1990-2000? A larger population puts a greater strain on the environment and increases the costs of resources and real estate. (Have you noticed the escalation in real estate prices over the past couple decades?)

[Sadly, many of the environmentalists end up being hypocritical, failing to acknowledge the population issue, probably because of a sense of altruism, when in fact it's a massive factor for the health of the environment.]

If you ignore the issue of wages/price increases, we'd gain merely in the area of enviornmental, real estate, and resources costs. Quality of life is also an issue--who wants to live like sardines with a population density?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Immigration quotas are a joke. I believe Mexico gets 60,000 a year, not near enough to meet demands of US economy. We had 10% of mexico's population here in illegal form or 11 million and it's still not enough. Thousands of jobs need filling.

Thousands of jobs need filling? Where the hell are they? You mean the millions of jobs that were lost during the Bush regime? Whatever job "growth" the nation had didn't even keep up with the population growth of the work force (probably over 150,000/month).

Advocates of free market economics should know that market forces take care of labor shortages. When the supply of labor is too low at a given price point, increase in the price point and raise the supply. It's almost as though they want to live in a (sadly, all too real) cuckoo-cloud world where labor should exist in an almost infinite supply. Ultimately, in a closed free market prices would approach their objective market values and people's purchasing power would be more closely related to their productive ability. In terms of wages and prices--it's really a zero-sum game.

However, in terms of issues that do not involve wages and prices, such as social costs and environmental costs, we're far better off with a closed market.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: ahurttThing is, those 11 million "workers" are also consumers. Get rid of those 11 million undocumented / illegal consumers and demands on the economy fall commensurately.

They are poverty wage consumers who somehow find a way to send some of their money back home to Mexico. Also--they impose other costs on Americans, costs the employers don't pick up--such as health care costs (huge hospital crisis in the southwest), education costs, police costs, increased population costs. Without them, the end result would surely be a net benefit.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674So you don't think my idea of a Southern United States would work?

The "Berlin" style wall is the other alternative but what about the money flow???

I love the idea, and perhaps many Mexicans would as well, but it would never go over politically nor internationally.

My version of this would be to clean out the Mexican government and to try to give those new states a more capitalist leaning version of our own mixed economy. I do wonder what would happen. It should be noted, however, that many other factors are involved in creating economic prosperity, such as a populace's overall degree of rationality and how many children people have. (Yes, you can breed yourself into poverty, just ask some welfare mothers.)

I think it's a neat idea, but the up front costs would be huge and the payoffs would be too long term to make it feasible.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Zebo
What "problem" is that charrison. I've asked that in every thread like these and never gottn an answer. Everybody likes the illegals dispite what they say.

For the most part I dont have a problem with illegals, as most of them a here to work.

1. They put a strain on public services(health education) in border states
2. Anchor babies(illegals coming the US so they can give birth,so the parents can become citizens). The US is about the only country that allows this practise.
3. Systematic encouragement of illegal immigration by the mexican goverment to prop up their economy. Money sent home by illegals is now Mexicos "largest industry"

.

 

[Zebo]

WhipperSnapper
You worry too much. Don't like population? move to the country. My town has 1200 people... I moved from socal long time ago because of the very issues you talk about. Then there's Canada up north where you can drive for hours and not see a soul. The main thing is Mexican are taking jobs natives are not training thier children for so we need them. Bus boys, house/hotel cleaners, labor intensive contruction.. You think Real Estate is expensive now? Double it if you used all union native labors, and they would be union, make no mistake about it. No college grad in the country could afford to buy a house just like in europe. Houses are expesive because of taxes (school bonds and such), low intrest rates, finite supply and labor. Labor is by far the biggest element in the cost in most areas besides coastal ones.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Zebo
What "problem" is that charrison. I've asked that in every thread like these and never gottn an answer. Everybody likes the illegals dispite what they say.

For the most part I dont have a problem with illegals, as most of them a here to work.

1. They put a strain on public services(health education) in border states
2. Anchor babies(illegals coming the US so they can give birth,so the parents can become citizens). The US is about the only country that allows this practise.
3. Systematic encouragement of illegal immigration by the mexican goverment to prop up their economy. Money sent home by illegals is now Mexicos "largest industry"

.

1. easy solution just eliminate that option.
2&3. I don't have a problem with open borders if we have free trade. Same thing but free trading labor instead of goods. Free movement of labor instead of goods. People complain that we are not competitive with the world and many jobs are being "offshored" we'll this is a way to stop that. Bring in labor, keep the jobs here, and profits here for the most part. Who cares if they are sending a portion of thier descresionary income home? Most is spent right here, on rent, utilites, food, clothes, cars, gas etc contributing to our GDP not mexicos.