Illegals Dying in Arizona

[ToeJam13]

Originally posted by: charrison
2. Anchor babies(illegals coming the US so they can give birth,so the parents can become citizens). The US is about the only country that allows this practise.

Actually, the US is not alone in this practice. Canada has a similar rule. Many countries in Europe also have similar laws, although I have recently heard that Ireland and Switzerland have clamped down on giving citizenship to babies born within their borders to non-citizens.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Bus boys, house/hotel cleaners, labor intensive contruction.. You think Real Estate is expensive now? Double it if you used all union native labors, and they would be union, make no mistake about it. No college grad in the country could afford to buy a house just like in europe. Houses are expesive because of taxes (school bonds and such), low intrest rates, finite supply and labor. Labor is by far the biggest element in the cost in most areas besides coastal ones.

Actually houses cost so much right now because they are over-valued. Much like the tech stocks in the 90's. And there is a lot of talk about the bubble bursting soon on the housing market. If house prices were built by all native labor unions they might cost about the same as they do now but the cost would be justified instead of it just being over inflated like it is now for no apparent reason other than speculation. It irks me knowing the builders are getting so rich off the backs of the illegal workers they exploit. At least if I knew documented and legal or even unionized workers built my house, more of the money would be going to feed their families instead of into the pockets of the already rich. Builders have got to be making insane amounts of profit off the housing market right now, especially the ones that employ illegal aliens even moreso.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Zebo
What "problem" is that charrison. I've asked that in every thread like these and never gottn an answer. Everybody likes the illegals dispite what they say.

For the most part I dont have a problem with illegals, as most of them a here to work.

1. They put a strain on public services(health education) in border states
2. Anchor babies(illegals coming the US so they can give birth,so the parents can become citizens). The US is about the only country that allows this practise.
3. Systematic encouragement of illegal immigration by the mexican goverment to prop up their economy. Money sent home by illegals is now Mexicos "largest industry"

.

Allow me to add to the list. . .In #1 you left out the legal system. Many of them come over, obtain false drivers licenses or identification, and can't even read the traffic signs. I am very glad states are starting to clamp down on the problem of illegals being able to obtain drivers licenses.

Also, when you have undocumented people, they are essentially people you don't know are there. This makes it very hard to allocate public resources and funding for them when you don't have a realistic or adequate headcount and demographic of the people living in a region. It leads to shortages and strains on economies.

Zebo, you say the solution for #1 is simple, just remove that option. I would like to hear how you propose we should go about doing that. What do you imagine the consequences of such an action could be? Are you saying we just deny them health care and education? How's that better than just leaving them out in the Arizona desert to die? I really don't think things are as cut and dry, black / white as you make them out to be. But maybe life in a town of 1200 people is simpler than it is in the rest of the world. Not everybody has the option of running away from the problem like you chose to do. And what will you do when it becomes a problem where you live now, as it surely will if things continue unchecked as they are now? Keep running?

 

[Zebo]

Nobodies running from anything. Migration of peoples in common thoughout history. You "ran" to USA right?:roll: Oklahomans and Kansians"ran" to Califonia during dust bowl. That's a stupid way to look at things. Poeple move for all sorts of reasons and should be perfectly free to do so. In this case, the United States offers better opportunities for mexicans why should we stop them? Becuase a small % (i've heard 4% as illegal worker # in our economy) of our society is afraid to compete with them or is xenophobes are afraid of them. Too bad. You're not gonna stop the natural tide of migration as most people recognise people have the right to make their lives better.

Edit: they've been predicting a bubble in Ca form the very first home my parents bought in Costa Mesa for a whopping $40,000 back in 65, people thought they were crazy at the time. Guess what. Never happend. every year it went up..today it's worth 1.7-2.0 and its just a normal family home.. you'd be a fool not to buy a house based on history.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Nobodies running from anything. Migration of peoples in common thoughout history. You "ran" to USA right?:roll: Oklahomans and Kansians"ran" to Califonia during dust bowl. That's a stupid way to look at things. Poeple move for all sorts of reasons and should be perfectly free to do so. In this case, the United States offers better opportunities for mexicans why should we stop them? Becuase a small % (i've heard 4% as illegal worker # in our economy) of our society is afraid to compete with them or is xenophobes are afraid of them. Too bad. You're not gonna stop the natural tide of migration as most people recognise people have the right to make their lives better.

No I didn't run to USA. I was born here. You were the one who said, "My town has 1200 people... I moved from socal long time ago because of the very issues you talk about." That statement by you was what I was referring to when I said you were running. I don't see how it could be any more clear. I'm not arguing that people have the right to make their lives better, but when they do it at the expense of other people, you can expect those other people to get upset. I suspect you are just making rationalizations to help yourself sleep better at night because you know subcontractors working for you are hiring illegal aliens. And deep down inside you somewhere you know it is wrong. In some ways I wish I could be like you and go through life with blinders on. Ignorance is bliss afterall.

 

[Zebo]

He mentioned traffic and population which I don't like and am free to move away from. I don't see you living in Watts or Englewood. I think were done on that topic.

I'm not arguing that people have the right to make their lives better, but when they do it at the expense of other people, you can expect those other people to get upset. I suspect you are just making rationalizations to help yourself sleep better at night because you know subcontractors working for you are hiring illegal aliens.

That's were we disagree the Illegals ARE making peoples lives better, thiers, thier employers, and at the end of it all the customers with lower prices. win-win-win.

I don't have a choice. This is side income for me, I'm and engineer by day..me and my partner are a small spec home builders 2-4 a year who would loose money using all union shops. The customer made this choice. We bill for what governemnt building cost to build we would'nt even sell one. As it is now we barley making enough money to make it worth our while.. No one is "getting rich" like you discribed earlier.

 

[StageLeft]

This has to be one of the most underrated issues of our time. It affects so many aspects, but I guess people just basically have said "the hell with it."

I agree, and that is not an exaggeration on your part. The gov't should set up tons of signs warning people not to cross, and have a no-man zone. Caught in it you get shot. These people are trespassing into a soverign nation. I mean seriously, it's a big fvcking deal. It's a felony and nobody in power gives a damn about it.

All they serve to do is bring down the average of quality of people, and not because of their race but because of their education and ability to contribute to society. These are not physicians running across the border. They run amok, bringing with them higher levels of crime, increased stress on social services (fire, medicaid, etc.) and fill a hole that doesn't need to be filled. There's never been a shortgage of labour for low-income jobs.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Zebo
He mentioned traffic and population which I don't like and am free to move away from. I don't see you living in Watts or Englewood. I think were done on that topic.

I'm not arguing that people have the right to make their lives better, but when they do it at the expense of other people, you can expect those other people to get upset. I suspect you are just making rationalizations to help yourself sleep better at night because you know subcontractors working for you are hiring illegal aliens.

That's were we disagree the Illegals ARE making peoples lives better, thiers, thier employers, and at the end of it all the customers with lower prices. win-win-win.

Other points aside (because they are not necessarily on topic) . . .If it is a win-win-win situation as you describe it, then why the controversy? Why are people upset about it? Obviously because some people are not winning and the reason they are not winning is because of unfair and ILLEGAL practices. Cheating if you will. The people who lose are the ones put out of work or forced into a lesser standard of living by people who are here illegaly. ILLEGAL! THAT MEANS AGAINST THE LAW! That is as much justification as anybody should need against hiring illegal aliens. It should be as crystal clear as the nose on your face. If people want to hire these guys, they should lobby to have the laws changed. But oh, then they wouldn't be able to exploit these people! But for some who do not put as much stock in the word of law for whatever reason, additional justification is needed I guess.

In the end, the practice of hiring illegals is just cutting corners to lower cost and make a quick buck. Quality suffers and in the end, everyone loses. The consumer loses because they have to pay to replace or redo something that was done shoddy in the first place and hence, end up paying more in the long run than if they had just paid to have it done right the first time. If you really want to contribute, hire college kids in the summer to help them work through school.

 

[Zebo]

An unjust law is'nt worth squat and civil disobedience is practiced. It's unjust to artifically restrict people in absolute squaler from making better for themselves. Everyone recognizes these people are a victim of circumstance and if they were in the same position they'd be the first one accross that border. Add to the fact the cursory benefits like cheap labor, cheap goods and services no one in power position is gonna stop the migration dispite the antiquated laws because they smart enough to see the benefits out weigh costs..

Why are they upset? Simple they are brown not white. No one minded back when most immigrants were whites. Only when the non-whites start coming is it and issue.


You think if 5 million danish people came here anyone would raise a stink? Think again.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Zebo
An unjust law is'nt worth squat and civil disobidiance is practiced. It's unjust to artifically restrict people in absolute squaler from making better for themselves. Everyone recognizes these people are a victim of circumstance and if they were in the same position they'd be the first one accross that border. Add to the fact the cursory benefits like cheap labor, cheap goods and services no one in power position is gonna stop the migration dispite the antiquated laws.

Oh, so now you are deciding what laws are worth following and which aren't? We have a democratic process for deciding that kind of thing. If you choose to circumvent it, then you alone risk the consequences of being caught. And you will only have yourself to blame when you are. A judge will not stand for "I don't agree with that law" in court. 'Nuff said.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: Zebo
An unjust law is'nt worth squat and civil disobidiance is practiced. It's unjust to artifically restrict people in absolute squaler from making better for themselves. Everyone recognizes these people are a victim of circumstance and if they were in the same position they'd be the first one accross that border. Add to the fact the cursory benefits like cheap labor, cheap goods and services no one in power position is gonna stop the migration dispite the antiquated laws.

Oh, so now you are deciding what laws are worth following and which aren't? We have a democratic process for deciding that kind of thing. If you choose to circumvent it, then you alone risk the consequences of being caught. And you will only have yourself to blame when you are. A judge will not stand for "I don't agree with that law" in court. 'Nuff said.

You better look up "jury nullification" then. You're basically clueless. The final threshold of law is the people yes democratic.

The supreme court (the ultimate judge) has in fact ruled multiple times a jury can say just that : "I don't agree with that law".

 

[ahurtt]

Wow you're already assuming you've won the case and the jury hasn't even been chosen. . .amazing. It's alright, I understand. Denial is a powerful thing to overcome.

 

[sourceninja]

On NPR this morning they talked a anti gun piece about how the US lets tons of guns get sent to Mexico. Mexico complained that they wont help stop the flow of drugs into the US, until we stop the flow of weapons into Mexico. It mentioned a lot of anti-gun propaganda and such, but the thought hit me. We should send more guns to Mexico. I mean, the only good illegal is a dead one. So lets help kill them before they try. I am however surprised that with all our "terrorism" in this country that nobody seems to think if its easy for a poor under educated Mexican to sneak into our country and get a job without even speaking English that a terrorist couldn't do the same thing. I almost hope they do so we will then have to do something about Mexico.

If it was up to me, I would make a simple process to become a citizen, then I would give 1 year for all illegals to declare themselves or get out. After that they are all enemys and terrorists and will be sent to Cuba.

I am that sick of not being able to speak to people who work at walmart, target, meyer, mcdonalds, taco bell, the guys who sided my apartment complex, the car who hit my car without insurance and spoke no English.

Its sad really. As a child I was against racism and would get down on people for being racist. Growing up near gary, IN I knew a lot of racist people, and I always though they were just haters. That they didn't have a real reason for being racist, and they were wrong about what was happening to their property values, jobs, and personal safety. But now, as a adult. I see the destruction and poverty that these people are bringing up from Mexico. How they drive wages down and put people out of work. I would say that I am definitely now racist. If you do not speak unaccented English, and don't have a valid excuse (education visa, travel, etc) I already assure you are good for nothing and have no respect for you. I know English isn't our official language, but I see a strong tie between people who don't speak English and poverty. And a strong tie between poverty and ghetto. I'm sick of watching nice area's become ghettos due to lowering property values from people selling cheap so they can get out and find work elsewhere.

anyways, I'm rambling. But I see it as a war. America will no longer be America, but a 3rd world version of Mexico if we don't do something soon. At least in the area where I am about to buy a house (to move away from loud dirty drug using Mexican people who live downstairs) has high enough property taxes to keep out most of the bad element.

 

[maluckey]

I may be the only person "In the know" about illegal Immigration/crime/poverty etc.

I support legel Immigration. I do not support second language programs in the United States.....assimilate or get out is my motto. If your homeland was so great, why are you here? One should think that if your country was so great, you'd jump at a chance to get home.

As I've stated a hundred times. Illegal Immigration can be stopped if you go for the $$$ and the perks. Stop the money, revise Citizenship Laws to abolish Jus Solis, stop most all the asylum opportunities and adjustment of status, and enforce the current laws as strict as you can, and there will be no issues.

One final consideration is that ALL unpaid debts and taxes MUST be repaid BEFORE appliying for Legal Residency. That would also slow down illegals.

 

[piasabird]

All I see is some people from Mexico Trying to invade the USA.

 

[BriGy86]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: cwjerome
12 illegal aliens recently died while crossing through Arizona's 110 degree heat. They aren't the first this year, and they won't be the last. I'm sure we'll see a few more running gun battles between competing "coyotes" (human smugglers) while traveling down the interstates also. Kinda makes driving interesting around here...

I find it disgusting that Mexico supports the illegal immigration... after all, the money those people send back ($15+ billion) is their second largest economic activity (and just for the cost of a few hundred dead each year). It's funny that when the Minutemen were down there, the Mexican military was conducting "operations" in that area as to virtually stop the inflow of border croseers in that area.

I find it disgusting that so many people in America don't care, or actively encourages the crossings. And national security is supposed to be a big issue?

I find it disgusting that a handful of Republicans in Arizona are trying hard to deal with this situation, but others from their party are too busy chasing them evil homosexuals around to help. And forget the Dems... they might as well be transporting the illegals themselves.

This has to be one of the most underrated issues of our time. It affects so many aspects, but I guess people just basically have said "the hell with it."

Elect me in 2008.

I promise you that either Mexico will be our 51st State or the border will be shut down like the Berlin Wall.

if i see you on the ballot my vote is yours

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: BriGy86

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: cwjerome
12 illegal aliens recently died while crossing through Arizona's 110 degree heat. They aren't the first this year, and they won't be the last. I'm sure we'll see a few more running gun battles between competing "coyotes" (human smugglers) while traveling down the interstates also. Kinda makes driving interesting around here...

I find it disgusting that Mexico supports the illegal immigration... after all, the money those people send back ($15+ billion) is their second largest economic activity (and just for the cost of a few hundred dead each year). It's funny that when the Minutemen were down there, the Mexican military was conducting "operations" in that area as to virtually stop the inflow of border croseers in that area.

I find it disgusting that so many people in America don't care, or actively encourages the crossings. And national security is supposed to be a big issue?

I find it disgusting that a handful of Republicans in Arizona are trying hard to deal with this situation, but others from their party are too busy chasing them evil homosexuals around to help. And forget the Dems... they might as well be transporting the illegals themselves.

This has to be one of the most underrated issues of our time. It affects so many aspects, but I guess people just basically have said "the hell with it."

Elect me in 2008.

I promise you that either Mexico will be our 51st State or the border will be shut down like the Berlin Wall.

if i see you on the ballot my vote is yours

Maybe you better read some of the other things dmcowen has posted in this forum before making that commitment.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: sourceninja
On NPR this morning they talked a anti gun piece about how the US lets tons of guns get sent to Mexico. Mexico complained that they wont help stop the flow of drugs into the US, until we stop the flow of weapons into Mexico. It mentioned a lot of anti-gun propaganda and such, but the thought hit me. We should send more guns to Mexico. I mean, the only good illegal is a dead one. So lets help kill them before they try. I am however surprised that with all our "terrorism" in this country that nobody seems to think if its easy for a poor under educated Mexican to sneak into our country and get a job without even speaking English that a terrorist couldn't do the same thing. I almost hope they do so we will then have to do something about Mexico.

If it was up to me, I would make a simple process to become a citizen, then I would give 1 year for all illegals to declare themselves or get out. After that they are all enemys and terrorists and will be sent to Cuba.

I am that sick of not being able to speak to people who work at walmart, target, meyer, mcdonalds, taco bell, the guys who sided my apartment complex, the car who hit my car without insurance and spoke no English.

Its sad really. As a child I was against racism and would get down on people for being racist. Growing up near gary, IN I knew a lot of racist people, and I always though they were just haters. That they didn't have a real reason for being racist, and they were wrong about what was happening to their property values, jobs, and personal safety. But now, as a adult. I see the destruction and poverty that these people are bringing up from Mexico. How they drive wages down and put people out of work. I would say that I am definitely now racist. If you do not speak unaccented English, and don't have a valid excuse (education visa, travel, etc) I already assure you are good for nothing and have no respect for you. I know English isn't our official language, but I see a strong tie between people who don't speak English and poverty. And a strong tie between poverty and ghetto. I'm sick of watching nice area's become ghettos due to lowering property values from people selling cheap so they can get out and find work elsewhere.

anyways, I'm rambling. But I see it as a war. America will no longer be America, but a 3rd world version of Mexico if we don't do something soon. At least in the area where I am about to buy a house (to move away from loud dirty drug using Mexican people who live downstairs) has high enough property taxes to keep out most of the bad element.

I heard the same story on NPR this morning on the way to work. So much for my theory that other NPR listeners were generally well grounded and reasonable folks.

One thing they mentioned in the story was how the Mexican border from the US into Mexico lacks something as simple as X-Ray machines. Maybe it would be in our own interest to make a gift of some X-Ray machines to the Mexican border authorities to help them help us. I would have no problem with some of my tax dollars going toward something like this and here's why. If we help them in this way, and find that successful gun smuggling from the US into Mexico doesn't abate somewhat, then that gives Mexico one less finger to point at the US for the problem. It is my personal guess that even if we did provide the Mexican border authorities with x-ray machines, the flow of illegal firearms from the US into Mexico would not be stemmed very much if any. The guards are probably corrupt and paid to look the other way. I say helping Mexico to enforce their borders is a good way of calling their bluff. If it actually helps, everybody wins. If it doesn't, we can call Bull$hit on Mexico. Let's offer them an olive branch and see if they take it. You have to keep in mind, the gun toting Mexican thugs are probably one of the things otherwise decent people from Mexico are trying to sneak into the US to get away from. Sending more guns into Mexico, as you say, only gives them more of a leg to stand on when they want to blame us. Sorry but I just don't see your logic.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Migrant workers from Mexico and other South/Central American countries are coming here to do the work that Americans are either too lazy or proud to do.

Not true. Why pay one American $15/hour when you can hire 3-5 mexicans for the same price and get more done. I never thought carpentry was a terrible profession. Seems around here most of the people building houses are Mexicans.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Illegals Dying in Arizona

Hmm, that's a shame.

<--Goes back to eating lunch and surfing the web.

 

[Zebo]

LOTS OF RACISTS IN THIS THREAD.

Meh.. that's alright enjoy it while you can in 20yrs you'll be minority and get that feeling minorities feel eveyday because as they say: The oppessed always become the oppressors.

 

[StageLeft]

Why are they upset? Simple they are brown not white. No one minded back when most immigrants were whites. Only when the non-whites start coming is it and issue.

My history sucks, but as far as I know the immigrants back in the 19th and much of the 20th century were capable, reasonably skilled people...farmers and carpenters and basically normal people. The quality of the US was not going down; its size was increasing.

Now the quality of the workers is being dumbed down because the least capable from Mexico are coming in. Like I said, they aren't mechanics and physicians, but cheap labourers with nothing to offer but another mouth to feed.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Zebo
What "problem" is that charrison. I've asked that in every thread like these and never gottn an answer. Everybody likes the illegals dispite what they say.

For the most part I dont have a problem with illegals, as most of them a here to work.

1. They put a strain on public services(health education) in border states
2. Anchor babies(illegals coming the US so they can give birth,so the parents can become citizens). The US is about the only country that allows this practise.
3. Systematic encouragement of illegal immigration by the mexican goverment to prop up their economy. Money sent home by illegals is now Mexicos "largest industry"

.

1. easy solution just eliminate that option.
2&3. I don't have a problem with open borders if we have free trade. Same thing but free trading labor instead of goods. Free movement of labor instead of goods. People complain that we are not competitive with the world and many jobs are being "offshored" we'll this is a way to stop that. Bring in labor, keep the jobs here, and profits here for the most part. Who cares if they are sending a portion of thier descresionary income home? Most is spent right here, on rent, utilites, food, clothes, cars, gas etc contributing to our GDP not mexicos.

If the changes you speak of were implemented, I might have to reconsider my POV on illegals.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Why are they upset? Simple they are brown not white. No one minded back when most immigrants were whites. Only when the non-whites start coming is it and issue.

My history sucks, but as far as I know the immigrants back in the 19th and much of the 20th century were capable, reasonably skilled people...farmers and carpenters and basically normal people. The quality of the US was not going down; its size was increasing.

Now the quality of the workers is being dumbed down because the least capable from Mexico are coming in. Like I said, they aren't mechanics and physicians, but cheap labourers with nothing to offer but another mouth to feed.

Hey we import lots of Drs and lots of PhD's..they are the ones filling the legal quotas. There's not enough for unskilled after that which is the whole problem and need to come here illegally.

History? This country has always taken the worlds proletariots. That's what all the Whites from europe where in the first place! Poor, destitute, un-skilled, and landless. Europe law says only oldest male could inherit somany of the rest came here. We even gave free land to them to grow country.

The Irish escaped potato famine, the italians were the poorest of the poor, the chineese same. Now they are rich, educated, first world and got selfish.

It's just the right thing to do IMO. America, a champion of opportunity, equality and fairness. Have you been to mexico? Seen the abject poverty? That's right next door man. Totally corrupt, total police state.

 

[ToeJam13]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Migrant workers from Mexico and other South/Central American countries are coming here to do the work that Americans are either too lazy or proud to do.

Let's clarify this. Ameicans wouldn't do the job at all--for any price--or Americans don't want to do those kinds of jobs for poverty wages? Could you please elaborate for this? Would Americans do those jobs for $10-15/hour? Americans don't want to work formerly middle class construction jobs for middle class wages?

Unemployed middle class Americans would never work jobs beneath them because they are too proud. They would rather sit at home and fret over their next unemployment check.

Unemployed lower class Americans are too lazy. The government will never take away their welfare checks, especially if they have children. They know they'll never end out on the street, even if they're constantly fired from job after job.

If some kind of civil works duty was required for middle class Americans in order to receive their unemploment checks (such as picking up litter, cleaning up parks, clerical work, etc) then they would kick and scream like no other.

If lower class Americans were required to work on a farm or in a textiles factory in order to retain custody of their children and home, they'd call you a Nazi and have the ACLU on you in a heartbeat.

So with no inititive to better themselves and no cattle prod to create inititive where there is none, you continue to have willing people from out of the country to fill their shoes. And that my friends, is the real crime.