Illegals Dying in Arizona

[Zebo]

:Q tell it like it is..

You guys know Johnston wanted work tied to welfare?

The stupid pubs said no because they wanted it to fail. The dems said no because well, they are too myopic and think no one will take advantage and it's "cruel".

What a failure that proggy is.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: piasabird
All I see is some people from Mexico Trying to invade the USA.

So that's how you people got here. Apparently it's legal.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Zebo

It's just the right thing to do IMO. America, a champion of opportunity, equality and fairness. Have you been to mexico? Seen the abject poverty? That's right next door man. Totally corrupt, total police state.

I have sympathy for this sentiment. I really do. So it is difficult for me to come out and oppose immigration.

However, one of the questions we have to ask ourselves, is:

Should we have an ethics of rational self interest or an ethics of altruism?

That is, I believe, the real underlying issue in the immigration debate. On the one side, we have those who are pro-immigration who feel that we should sacrifice ourselves to help others and that we should place the well being of others ahead of our own selfish, pecuniary interests.

On the other side are people who have a sense of self-interest. They may feel badly for the poor in other countries, but realize that at the end of the day they have to worry about their own personal quality of life.

If immigration is no longer in Americans' rational selfish interests, then why allow it? Just what exactly should our government try to achieve if not an improvement in its own citizens' quality of life?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: ToeJam13

Unemployed middle class Americans would never work jobs beneath them because they are too proud. They would rather sit at home and fret over their next unemployment check.

If this were true, then how come you can find Americans working jobs that pay under $10/hour? Last time I went to a fast food joint, the people there seemed to be Americans. Last time I went to Walmart, the cashiers seemed to be Americans.

So, I don't buy your claim Americans are unwilling to do certain jobs. I bet people would gladly do these undesirable jobs for $20/hour. In a closed free market, wages would end up being determined by supply and demand, and jobs that were less desirable would need a higher price point in order to obtain supply. I'm not sure why that would be a problem.

I tend to agree with you that welfare statism is not good. However, I think we should first focus on improving the state of the economy and the job market before abolishing all of the welfare programs.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the following, by the way. What do we do in cases where people have reproduced themselves into poverty. What should we do about poor people who have children they cannot afford? What do we do with the children? Allow them to starve? I don't have a particularly satisfying answer--perhaps you have one? Offer incentives or force the parents to become sterilized and take the children to orphanages? I suppose advocates of capitalism might say something like this in response to the question, what would happen to the poor in a free society, (a quote from Barbara Branden, I think (?)): "If you wish to help them (the poor) you will not be stopped."

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Zebo
LOTS OF RACISTS IN THIS THREAD.

Meh.. that's alright enjoy it while you can in 20yrs you'll be minority and get that feeling minorities feel eveyday because as they say: The oppessed always become the oppressors.

Ok so by this logic it seems you are saying that being in the majority automatically makes one racist and being a minority automatically makes one oppressed. No wonder there's no reasoning with you. . .

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Zebo

It's just the right thing to do IMO. America, a champion of opportunity, equality and fairness. Have you been to mexico? Seen the abject poverty? That's right next door man. Totally corrupt, total police state.

I have sympathy for this sentiment. I really do. So it is difficult for me to come out and oppose immigration.

However, one of the questions we have to ask ourselves, is:

Should we have an ethics of rational self interest or an ethics of altruism?

That is, I believe, the real underlying issue in the immigration debate. On the one side, we have those who are pro-immigration who feel that we should sacrifice ourselves to help others and that we should place the well being of others ahead of our own selfish, pecuniary interests.

On the other side are people who have a sense of self-interest. They may feel badly for the poor in other countries, but realize that at the end of the day they have to worry about their own personal quality of life.

If immigration is no longer in Americans' rational selfish interests, then why allow it? Just what exactly should our government try to achieve if not an improvement in its own citizens' quality of life?

I pretty much echo this sentiment. My beef at the end of the day is that I want to help others but I also gotta look out for me and mine. If it comes down to them or me, I choose me. I will do what I can to help others but I want it done by the book. If you're here, it should be legally as a guest or a citizen, not an invader. That is all.

 

[piasabird]

The USA is literally being invaded by Mexico and we are allowing it to happen. On the southern border of Mexico they shoot their invaders.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Zebo

It's just the right thing to do IMO. America, a champion of opportunity, equality and fairness. Have you been to mexico? Seen the abject poverty? That's right next door man. Totally corrupt, total police state.

I have sympathy for this sentiment. I really do. So it is difficult for me to come out and oppose immigration.

However, one of the questions we have to ask ourselves, is:

Should we have an ethics of rational self interest or an ethics of altruism?

That is, I believe, the real underlying issue in the immigration debate. On the one side, we have those who are pro-immigration who feel that we should sacrifice ourselves to help others and that we should place the well being of others ahead of our own selfish, pecuniary interests.

On the other side are people who have a sense of self-interest. They may feel badly for the poor in other countries, but realize that at the end of the day they have to worry about their own personal quality of life.

If immigration is no longer in Americans' rational selfish interests, then why allow it? Just what exactly should our government try to achieve if not an improvement in its own citizens' quality of life?

I don't think we are sacrificing ourselves. Made that clear over an over in this thread.

Crowding? USA is a huge ccuntry with millions of acres of unpopulated space.
Economy? Any economist will relate the benefits of having them here. Cheap homes, cheap food , cheap labor.

Just the opposite. We are enriching ourselves both from a cultural prospective and economic one.

In sum I can't even argue your point since I don't agree with it's foundations

 

[cwjerome]

Zebo, it's amazing that for you, the ends justify the means. Hell we get some cheap labor and lettuce costs less, so who the hell cares if over 1 million people a year illegally flow into this country. Over 200 men, women, and children die every year in Arizona trying to cross the desert. They die because of people like you.

They die because of America's hypocritical immigration policy. They die because Mexico treats illegal immigration to the US like a jobs program. I realize the value of cheap labor, and I think a rational worker program would be great... as long as we have control over our own freakin border and are able to properly manage our nation and security.

 

[wavshrdr]

Why let all the illegals in from Mexico and in effect punish the one who do it legitamately? Why not let people who can make a bigger difference in the growth of the US like well educated Russian or Ukrainian engineers for example? I think the US has responisibility here but Mexico even more so.

It is truly a farce that we give so much aid to illegals (why do we if they supposedly have so many jobs waiting for them) but we don't give it to our own citizens. Thankfully illegal Mexicans aren't an issue where I live now as it is too cold for most of them here. Unfortunately when I lived in Arizona they often stole stuff from our house. I lived with my uncle for a while too there and he said just shoot them if they got near the house again. He was a cop and this was over 20 years ago and it was a problem then!

We have the right to close our borders, all other countries do it. Stop the flow and let the economics sort themselves out. I am willing to pay more for produce if the cost goes up. How do you know that terrorists AREN'T sneaking in through the border too?

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: piasabird
The USA is literally being invaded by Mexico and we are allowing it to happen. On the southern border of Mexico they shoot their invaders.

wth? those 'invaders' are mostly indigenous peoples.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: wavshrdr
Why let all the illegals in from Mexico and in effect punish the one who do it legitamately? Why not let people who can make a bigger difference in the growth of the US like well educated Russian or Ukrainian engineers for example? I think the US has responisibility here but Mexico even more so.

It is truly a farce that we give so much aid to illegals (why do we if they supposedly have so many jobs waiting for them) but we don't give it to our own citizens. Thankfully illegal Mexicans aren't an issue where I live now as it is too cold for most of them here. Unfortunately when I lived in Arizona they often stole stuff from our house. I lived with my uncle for a while too there and he said just shoot them if they got near the house again. He was a cop and this was over 20 years ago and it was a problem then!

We have the right to close our borders, all other countries do it. Stop the flow and let the economics sort themselves out. I am willing to pay more for produce if the cost goes up. How do you know that terrorists AREN'T sneaking in through the border too?

:thumbsdown:

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Zebo, it's amazing that for you, the ends justify the means. Hell we get some cheap labor and lettuce costs less, so who the hell cares if over 1 million people a year illegally flow into this country. Over 200 men, women, and children die every year in Arizona trying to cross the desert. They die because of people like you.

They die because of America's hypocritical immigration policy. They die because Mexico treats illegal immigration to the US like a jobs program. I realize the value of cheap labor, and I think a rational worker program would be great... as long as we have control over our own freakin border and are able to properly manage our nation and security.

Yeah we should bus them with ICE cold water and MREs but you're not asking for that are you?

 

[Kerouactivist]

come on guys dubya is takenn care of um if you know whatuua mean

 

[AnyMal]

Originally posted by: maluckey
I may be the only person "In the know" about illegal Immigration/crime/poverty etc.

I support legel Immigration. I do not support second language programs in the United States.....assimilate or get out is my motto. If your homeland was so great, why are you here? One should think that if your country was so great, you'd jump at a chance to get home.

As I've stated a hundred times. Illegal Immigration can be stopped if you go for the $$$ and the perks. Stop the money, revise Citizenship Laws to abolish Jus Solis, stop most all the asylum opportunities and adjustment of status, and enforce the current laws as strict as you can, and there will be no issues.

One final consideration is that ALL unpaid debts and taxes MUST be repaid BEFORE appliying for Legal Residency. That would also slow down illegals.

What you're proposing has already been tried in Germany in 1930's. We all know how it ended.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Zebo, it's amazing that for you, the ends justify the means. Hell we get some cheap labor and lettuce costs less, so who the hell cares if over 1 million people a year illegally flow into this country. Over 200 men, women, and children die every year in Arizona trying to cross the desert. They die because of people like you.

They die because of America's hypocritical immigration policy. They die because Mexico treats illegal immigration to the US like a jobs program. I realize the value of cheap labor, and I think a rational worker program would be great... as long as we have control over our own freakin border and are able to properly manage our nation and security.

I'm not necessarily opposed to a rational, managed foreign laborer program for certain things as long as Americans weren't displaced from middle class jobs. However, I'm skeptical that we'd actually reap a net economic benefit from it. That "cheap lettuce" is cheap in an externality sort of way--that "cheap lettuce" carries other costs with it.

What you don't see in the price of lettuce is the price of public education and medical care for the illegals and their children, the price of having to have police and prisons to deal with crimes committed by illegals (and Americans who end up being poor because of repressed wages caused by it), the price of a higher population (anchor babies, more people living in the nation and using its resources).

My theory is that it might very well be cheaper to have Americans do the work for $10/hour than it is for illegals to do it for $4/hour or whatever. We're already providing medical care and education and suffering the costs of population for Americans anyway, so when you add those costs to the wages of an illegal alien, having Americans do the work might end up being cheaper on the whole.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: AnyMal

What you're proposing has already been tried in Germany in 1930's. We all know how it ended.

Are you going to stick to your smear tactic, or are you willing to use reason and acknolwedge a gigantic difference between committing genocide against one's own citizens and merely sealing one's border and deporting people back to their own country?

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Zebo, it's amazing that for you, the ends justify the means. Hell we get some cheap labor and lettuce costs less, so who the hell cares if over 1 million people a year illegally flow into this country. Over 200 men, women, and children die every year in Arizona trying to cross the desert. They die because of people like you.

They die because of America's hypocritical immigration policy. They die because Mexico treats illegal immigration to the US like a jobs program. I realize the value of cheap labor, and I think a rational worker program would be great... as long as we have control over our own freakin border and are able to properly manage our nation and security.

I'm not necessarily opposed to a rational, managed foreign laborer program for certain things as long as Americans weren't displaced from middle class jobs. However, I'm skeptical that we'd actually reap a net economic benefit from it. That "cheap lettuce" is cheap in an externality sort of way--that "cheap lettuce" carries other costs with it.

What you don't see in the price of lettuce is the price of public education and medical care for the illegals and their children, the price of having to have police and prisons to deal with crimes committed by illegals (and Americans who end up being poor because of repressed wages caused by it), the price of a higher population (anchor babies, more people living in the nation and using its resources).

My theory is that it might very well be cheaper to have Americans do the work for $10/hour than it is for illegals to do it for $4/hour or whatever. We're already providing medical care and education and suffering the costs of population for Americans anyway, so when you add those costs to the wages of an illegal alien, having Americans do the work might end up being cheaper on the whole.

I agree there's some bigtime costs the way things are now. I'd probably call it a wash... benefits and costs close to the same, overall. Unfortunately this is done by averaging out the high cost of a place like Arizona and the high benefit of a place like Pennsylvania. Problem is, I live in Arizona.

I teach at a 90% Hispanic school where about 15-20% of those students are here illegally. They get free and/or reduced breakfast and lunch. Often 3 or 4 families live in the same house, affecting property tax collection. Of course most don't pay income taxes. They are a heavy strain on Arizona's welfare, law enforcement, and especially health care systems.

Yet it's hard for me to blame them... maybe because I have a personal connection. If I were in their shoes, I'd probably do the same. The problem is the governments of Mexico and the US because we allow for it. If the border and a worker program were managed properly, it would be a win-win situation for the US and the immigrant/workers. No program will be effective though until we take border control seriously.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I find it disgusting that a handful of Republicans in Arizona are trying hard to deal with this situation, but others from their party are too busy chasing them evil homosexuals around to help. And forget the Dems... they might as well be transporting the illegals themselves.

I don't think your assessment is harsh enough. 1.) Republicans are in a unique position to do something about the illegal immigration problem, but have thus far done squat in the 5 years in which they've dominated the government, and 2.) Bush has managed to do far worse than nothing -- promoting his guest worker plan, he effectively is rewarding illegals who can prove they have a job with a 3-year stay and an undetermined number of extensions.

In short, doing nothing on the issue would be preferable to making it worse by rewarding illegal immigration.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Republicans are in a unique position to do something about the illegal immigration problem, but have thus far done squat in the 5 years in which they've dominated the government

This cannot be stressed enough. No excuses repugs.