In MATH we trust

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
You left out the 'Amen.'

I say again, while no one is denying math is a useful tool, viewing the world strictly thru a mathmatical/logical perspective will doom you to disappointment and will almost certainly earn the derision and persecution of the world. The reason is simple, the world (indeed the guy two houses over) views the problem, not to mention the order of operations differently.

There is nothing inherently virtuous about proselitizing logic as the correct viewpoint for inteligent people everywhere. The short sightedness of such people viewing the world in black and white has given rise to as many conflicts as accepted religions ever have. You can 'prove' your viewpoint mathmatically/logically all you want but, it will not alter the fact that just as many people will vilify every thought and idea you present in such a manner.

I have noticed that anyone questioning the rightness/validity of a purely logical view of life and the cosmos is subjected to ridicule and rejection by the scientific sorts on a level which rivals the most rabid theologist. I wonder why the logical thinker is unable/unwilling to evaluate other world views by the rules/logic which are central to those differing beliefs?

I challenge you to find any point where I "ridiculed" or "rejected" anyone for not having a fully logical worldview.

My point is only that the OP clearly does not have an understanding of the foundational aspects of mathematics. The provided examples have not been valid support for his points. Trust me, if he'd shown the same rhetorical carelessness with a treatise that praised the hyper-logical view of the world I would have been equally energetic in pulling that apart and extolling the virtues of a more holistic worldview.

In short, the original post showed a lack of understanding regarding the subject that required counter-examples and an explanation of the most fundamental aspects of mathematics. I took no stand on the question of whether one should or should not have a fully logical worldview.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Mr Pepper
Fair enough, but that does not help the fact the we use the decimal value in everyday calculations today

That reflects a limitation of the tools. A digital computer is incapable of dealing properly with a fraction. From a pure theory of mathematics standpoint it's an undesireable situation.

ZV

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: Mr Pepper

For example, the use of infinity in the case of dividing 10 into 3 parts. We end up with 3.33-infinity. Even it we were allowed to use such a number (which doesn't exist) 3 parts of 3.33-infinity would still not equal 10.

Mathematics has its limitations. You can't and don't want to use it in an attempt to solve all problems. You don't want to reach for it in all circumstances. It's a tool, or rather a set of tools, because there are many realms of mathematics, often very differnt. I have a degree in math, so I should know.

Math can be very challenging, sometimes in ways similar to chess. It can very much challenge the imagination.

The problem you note, dividing 10 in 3 parts doesn't really show a shortcoming in mathematics. You contend that 10/3 doesn't exist. However it does. It's 3 + 1/3. You may as well say that 1/3 doesn't exist. What you are contending is that .333333 ad infinitum doesn't exist. Well, it exists out as far as you take it. What you are saying is that there is no member of .3333333333 etc. that's exactly equal to 1/3, which is true, but how is that a limitation? The problem there is with the decimal system. The decimal system is just a commonly used system of measurement. As a system of measurement, it has practical uses. For any practical use you can name, it will work. How close to 1/3 do you need .333333 etc. to be? You name how close and I'll provide a member of the set of .3333333 taken out however many times I care to that will suffice for the accuracy you need. In the practical world close enough is close enough (and the Devil take the hindmost!).

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: Mr Pepper
Medicine, the calendar, our economy, our power grids, our water supplies... etc. are all controlled and governed by the math. The one language all humans across the globe can speak in unity.

Math is simply an organized system by which we can systematically address and handle everyday tasks in life using logic and reason. It seems to be one of the staples of what separates us from the beasts.

So my question is what are the limitations of our mathematical systems? They are all man made, and thus seem to inherit some of our deficiencies, or our limitations. We like to think that we have it all mapped out on paper, but inevitably, something happens or comes along to prove our theories wrong.

For example, the use of infinity in the case of dividing 10 into 3 parts. We end up with 3.33-infinity. Even it we were allowed to use such a number (which doesn't exist) 3 parts of 3.33-infinity would still not equal 10.

I suppose we can just say it's "close enough", but maybe we are barking up the wrong tree all together. Besides a flawed system of units and measures, we live in a world that is not constant, and not suitable for environmentally controlled application of these already flawed units and measures.

Just thinking out loud today..

Lol, Honestly this sounds like the ravings of a "I suck at math so I don't think its important" person. You also have an incorrect view of infinity... Really, I have heard a lot of people that talk about how they don't think math is important and none of them do well in it.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Mr Pepper
For example, the use of infinity in the case of dividing 10 into 3 parts. We end up with 3.33-infinity. Even it we were allowed to use such a number (which doesn't exist) 3 parts of 3.33-infinity would still not equal 10.

Okay, what's up?

Just because it cannot be written in the base 10 number system? In the base 3 number system, that is exactly 10.1.

It's just mere chance that we ended up with 5 digits on each hand, if we instead evolved with the 6 digit gene, we'd be using a base 12 number system, in which case your division equals 3.4 exactly.

So where's this limitation that's got you stumped? I have no trouble writing that number to its exact value.

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: Mr Pepper

Alright,

I'll bite. And hopefully in a more "civilized manner" than you have chosen to show me. Also, forgive my ignorance about the 10 post rule. Who could have known?

So far, I have heard a lot of replies to the topic, which is what I was after. Thanks to all that thought about the question.. and then responded. This is what we Idahoans, call a conversation. It's the latest craze.

So what's your answer by the way? Either way, I'm grateful for your consideration and guidance.

What part of Idaho are you from btw?

 

[Jaylllo]

Originally posted by: Mr Pepper
Medicine, the calendar, our economy, our power grids, our water supplies... etc. are all controlled and governed by the math. The one language all humans across the globe can speak in unity.

Math is simply an organized system by which we can systematically address and handle everyday tasks in life using logic and reason. It seems to be one of the staples of what separates us from the beasts.

So my question is what are the limitations of our mathematical systems? They are all man made, and thus seem to inherit some of our deficiencies, or our limitations. We like to think that we have it all mapped out on paper, but inevitably, something happens or comes along to prove our theories wrong.

For example, the use of infinity in the case of dividing 10 into 3 parts. We end up with 3.33-infinity. Even it we were allowed to use such a number (which doesn't exist) 3 parts of 3.33-infinity would still not equal 10.

I suppose we can just say it's "close enough", but maybe we are barking up the wrong tree all together. Besides a flawed system of units and measures, we live in a world that is not constant, and not suitable for environmentally controlled application of these already flawed units and measures.

Just thinking out loud today..

A lot of your writing sounds specious and subversive. I think you are trolling.
Or don't talk about subjects being flawed when you don't have a basic understanding of things.

Lastly, I haven't run across anything yet that wasn't an approximation of some sort in this world yet. Let me know when you come up with something RATIONAL and logically sound. A trillion extra points for proving completeness.

 

[Mr Pepper]

Thanks all,

I think I have covered all my viewpoints exhaustively. No they are not complete or fully developed, because I was asking a question, not providing a solution.

To the comment about trolling. I think that trolls have a few higher post counts on average. no?

This was my honest attempt to discuss a topic that puzzles some (like me), frustrates others and apparently causes hatred as well.

My apologies to those who were inconvenienced, my gratitude to those who wrestled the issue with me, and my condolences to those who accept everything they're taught in school.

PS Someone asked where in Idaho I'm from. I'm from Boise.

Regards,
Mr. Pepper